Author Topic: Portrait advice  (Read 10173 times)

the solitaire

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 624
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2017, 12:50:24 »
Interesting portrait, and I am a firm believer that it is perfectly legit to use lenses wide open. I use my 55mm f1,2 wide open almost all the time, even if folks complain about vignetting, lack of sharpness, coma and whatnot.

I studied photography for a while and one of my tutors at the time said that the first thing he would like to do is glue the paerture ring stuck at the wide open aperture on all student cameras (mostly a bunch of Minolta X300's and a few Canons and Nikons thrown in the mix, mostly equipped with a 50mm f,4, 50mm f1,7 or 50mm f1,8)

Through my personal struggle to understanding photograph and how to make it work for me, I found that with certain lenses, stopping down often takes more away then it does add. Less is more would be a general wisdom that applies here. Bring along the message by omitting everything else. Of course, this can be taken to extremes, or seen as a loose guideline depending on your personal interest in photography. I stick with the loose guideline)

Another wise word this tutor spoke was that rules are there to be broken. Bjorn already said that, but I would like to repeat it here.

As much as fashion photography dictates how young ladies want o look these days (and the past 2-3 decades for that matter), I think that beauty edits belong to glossy magazines. Not to family photos. So, Daniel, in my opinion, your daughter looks really nice just the way she is, and favorable light can add it's bit. I don't see an issue with a removing a blemish on the skin, or removing the one or other imperfection.

I expect Ethan meant to help. Most likely coming from a different perspective, he sure made that photograph pop and it would look great printed in a glossy, but as others mentioned, this kind of aggressive editing takes away from the character of a person. The character your photograph manages to capture so nicely.

Then some go on about the busy bokeh bubbles around her head. I just happen to love those, and I never found them to be distracting even in your first version of the photo. To be honest, I miss them in the later photo you posted. The background becomes too dark and dull without hem.

The 85mm f1,4 has a distinct look to it, and the outlined bokeh bubbles belong to that. If you want the edited smoothed bubbles posted by some, try the 5cm f2 Nikkor-S. That lens gives you those straight from the camera. Personally, I like the outlined ones in this shot.

Now on to the only point of critique from my behalf. Watch your background. You won't see it that way through the viewfinder of your camera, but that tree on the right. Now that's distracting! The vertical crop of the first picture gets rid of that and to me, is the perfect solution here. No further background editing required.

Elsa, even though I expect you also only intedn the best here, your added bubbles, to me, take away from the pureness of the picture and make it into a fairytale shot. The rest of your edit towards delicacy works real well for me, even though the overall image apperas a bit cold. But the added bubbles are of different shape and opacity, and of different texture compared to the original ones. Maybe it would have been better to copy a few of the original bubbles, or leave them as they were. I'm not into the smooth bubbles either, but the added ones really take away from your edit. (That is just my opinion though)

With all of that out of the way, really cool conversation you got going here. One thing I appreciate from this forum. A lot of very different opinions and approaches based upon who we all are. :)
Buddy

elsa hoffmann

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3822
  • Cape Town, South Africa
    • Elsa Hoffmann
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2017, 12:58:56 »
Quote
Elsa, even though I expect you also only intedn the best here, your added bubbles, to me, take away from the pureness of the picture and make it into a fairytale shot. The rest of your edit towards delicacy works real well for me, even though the overall image apperas a bit cold. But the added bubbles are of different shape and opacity, and of different texture compared to the original ones. Maybe it would have been better to copy a few of the original bubbles, or leave them as they were. I'm not into the smooth bubbles either, but the added ones really take away from your edit. (That is just my opinion though)



As said - my edit is merely my opinion and style. You would edit differently - and your style is different to mine or anyone else's for that matter. It wouldn't have been better to copy some of the original "bubbles"  - that wouldn't be my style. But it might be the next person's. Any other "style" is probably just as valid as mine. It's a matter of taste. I don't see a portrait as a family shot - but that's semantics and I suspect each have our own definition of the aforementioned. A bit like pornography - you recognize it when you see it :)  ;D ;D
"You don’t take a photograph – you make it” – Ansel Adams. Thats why I use photoshop.
www.phototourscapetown.com
www.elsa.co.za. www.intimateimages.co.za

Ethan

  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 208
  • You ARE NikonGear
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2017, 14:03:03 »
Ethan I dont agree with your comments regarding the shadows. Your edits looks hard, orange  and is not flattering in my opinion. This is a soft portrait. Its a girl in lace. Not a chick in leathers. Editing should fit the subject and not the rules.

Actually, you are perfectly right and your edit with bubbles is so good and fits the subject matter so perfectly.

So jealous of your outstanding Lemonade edit.

Nevermind that you seem to have missed the first three lines of my post

Ethan

  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 208
  • You ARE NikonGear
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2017, 14:08:30 »
This might be your rule, but definitely not a rule I have ever used or even heard of :)

Unfortunately, it is not my rule. If you do not know or heard about it before is no big deal to learn something new each day.

I strive to learn something new each day including making Lemonade portraits.

elsa hoffmann

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3822
  • Cape Town, South Africa
    • Elsa Hoffmann
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2017, 14:09:25 »
Actually, you are perfectly right and your edit with bubbles is so good and fits the subject matter so perfectly.

So jealous of your outstanding Lemonade edit.

Nevermind that you seem to have missed the first three lines of my post

Oops - sorry - I thought "Always but always and I repeat always" superseded the first 3 lines. Thank you for the kind comment on my edit. I teach lemonade. Let me know when you have a Friday off.
"You don’t take a photograph – you make it” – Ansel Adams. Thats why I use photoshop.
www.phototourscapetown.com
www.elsa.co.za. www.intimateimages.co.za

the solitaire

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 624
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2017, 21:26:28 »


As said - my edit is merely my opinion and style. You would edit differently - and your style is different to mine or anyone else's for that matter. It wouldn't have been better to copy some of the original "bubbles"  - that wouldn't be my style. But it might be the next person's. Any other "style" is probably just as valid as mine. It's a matter of taste. I don't see a portrait as a family shot - but that's semantics and I suspect each have our own definition of the aforementioned. A bit like pornography - you recognize it when you see it :)  ;D ;D

Neither want to dive too deep into semantics, nor in the finer points of pornography here as I hope to take part in friendly banter on the subject of photography. As you mention, style is a part of personal preference and that's what it all boils down to.

Ethan, I think your write up was a good and helpful one. I agree with others that I personally wouldn't apply it in such a situation, but I have applied similar editing to photography for paid assignments in the past.
Buddy

MFloyd

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1801
  • My quest for the "perfect" speed blur
    • Adobe Portfolio
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #36 on: March 06, 2017, 11:37:44 »
I so often hear or read: "there are no rules" or "rules are there to be broken". But one should understand that there are things which work and other which don't work. And, that you need (a lot) more talent to make things work which don't follow the rules. Thinking "outside of the box" is much more demanding. And this should certainly not be an excuse for people who can't even produce something which simply follows the rules.
Γνῶθι σεαυτόν

simsurace

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 835
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2017, 14:00:28 »
When stating rules, it would be nice to cite a reference.
If it is a rule in portraiture to have a background that is darker than the face, are all high key portraits against the rule?
Do you shoot portraits of black people only in front of a black background then?
Simone Carlo Surace
suracephoto.com

Erik Lund

  • Global Moderator
  • **
  • Posts: 6529
  • Copenhagen
    • ErikLund.com
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2017, 19:05:36 »
I so often hear or read: "there are no rules" or "rules are there to be broken". But one should understand that there are things which work and other which don't work. And, that you need (a lot) more talent to make things work which don't follow the rules. Thinking "outside of the box" is much more demanding. And this should certainly not be an excuse for people who can't even produce something which simply follows the rules.

I would hope this site is for thinking out of the box ;)

Have you heard of this particular rule with the dark back ground? Can you explain it, what and why?

Of course there are rules to follow, like guides to not mess completely up - that is mostly how we get into new things, but they always make sense,,, This one just doesn't - so far,,,
Erik Lund

elsa hoffmann

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3822
  • Cape Town, South Africa
    • Elsa Hoffmann
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #39 on: March 06, 2017, 19:30:06 »
For me there is just one rule with portraits. Don't light from below - unless you want your subject to look like a ghost. I have never seen that it works lighting from below - so that is one I stick to. However - I would love somebody to prove that wrong. New ideas - anytime.
"You don’t take a photograph – you make it” – Ansel Adams. Thats why I use photoshop.
www.phototourscapetown.com
www.elsa.co.za. www.intimateimages.co.za

MFloyd

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1801
  • My quest for the "perfect" speed blur
    • Adobe Portfolio
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #40 on: March 06, 2017, 20:04:22 »
I would hope this site is for thinking out of the box ;)

Have you heard of this particular rule with the dark back ground? Can you explain it, what and why?


No. But, to be clear, I didn't made that statement.  ::)
Γνῶθι σεαυτόν

Ethan

  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 208
  • You ARE NikonGear
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #41 on: March 06, 2017, 20:50:43 »
When stating rules, it would be nice to cite a reference.
If it is a rule in portraiture to have a background that is darker than the face, are all high key portraits against the rule?
Do you shoot portraits of black people only in front of a black background then?

You need a reference on plain logic?
The idea is to make the subject stand out of the background.
Plain logic really.
What is it exactly you are disputing?

I specifically exemplified in my post saying "as a rule of thumb" and and not a rule per se. Further more, I said DARKER and not DARK.

It is a rule of thumb when shooting portraits to have the B/G darker than the subject as this:

You need not resort to sarcasm by asking how to shoot black on black or in other words a specialty style of Low Key High Contrast/ deep black and mid tones vs a High Key Low Contrast/Low mid tones and blacks or Whatever rocks your boat.

If you are to shoot a dark skin person in front of a dark or darker background, there are many lighting techniques to achieve that depending on which look you are after.

Please read carefully:
You need separation between B/G and subject.
You could have the subject back lit (obviously front lit as well just in case you wish to query that part as well), you could have the B/G lit, you could have your light as close as possible or further away to the subject with or without a grid and/or the subject further away from your backdrop, you can have a combination of these. There are many more lighting techniques and lighting set ups and iterations and I wonder why I even bother state the obvious!

I am an avid learner. First Lemonade and then Black on Black.
Please direct me where can I see your Black on Black Beauty shots and Portraits Photography lest I continue my learning journey?

null

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 162
  • You ARE NikonGear
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #42 on: March 06, 2017, 22:21:59 »
Many thanks for the numerous comments and also for taking your time and editing to different styles.
I like Elsa's airy style for this kind of portrait. Admittedly I have no clue about retouching and would have to learn this.

Another photo from same series which was taken in portrait mode. Framing and pose could still be better.
The bokeh is less distracting in my view.

I like the second shot, the one in this post- portrait mode for a portrait works best. Shooting wide-open certainly isolates the subject from the background.

I like the slightly "crooked smile", something that we Dads can expect when shooting portraits of daughters. Makes the shot memorable, as it folds in a relationship. Your daughter is beautiful.

simsurace

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 835
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #43 on: March 06, 2017, 22:24:57 »
Ethan, I was not trying to be sarcastic. I was asking for clarification.
I thought the statement you made was phrased too generally, since there are many exceptions to that rule of thumb.
I unterstand your points about separation and fully agree.
As you state, separation can be achieved in many ways.
The explanations you gave in your last post contain substantially more than just 'plain logic'.

I am an avid learner. First Lemonade and then Black on Black.
Please direct me where can I see your Black on Black Beauty shots and Portraits Photography lest I continue my learning journey?

This sounds as if you are now being sarcastic. Sorry to say, I have nothing to teach you.
I would love to shoot some black on black shots sometime.
Simone Carlo Surace
suracephoto.com

Olivier

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 713
  • Olivier Anthony
Re: Portrait advice
« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2017, 22:29:53 »
No need to impose rules or call names. There are many ways to make a portrait successful, it all depends on what you want to convey.
I tend to like dark backgrounds for mine but this is just personal taste.
When I see Avedon's work (many many white backgrounds!), I think he was no slouch...

Daniel: you have a lovely daughter and you did a good job here. I think that Elsa's edit (bubbles not needed for me though!) goes very well with her kind and somewhat "shy" expression.