AI superior to AI-S?

[John Koerner]

The old 55mm AI 1.2 is the forerunner for the 50mm 1.2 Ai and Ais and performance is very similar although they are optically very different. Central sharpness and general low light lenses.

Except for resale value, this one seems to be the better overall value, given the price of the Noct.

The Noct-Nikkor 58mm 1.2 is optimized for central sharpness and low coma and is superior in Bokeh, a true dream lens that is really fun shooting, we have some nice threads here with loads of images, the 58mm AFS 1.4 is very close in performance and so is 35mm AFS 1.4 although the 35mm works quite well stopped way down,,,

Based on the charts I have read, 58mm AFS 1.4 doesn't ever really get to "great" status, but is pretty mediocre the whole way ...





Based on the charts I have read, it appears the new 105mm f/1.4 ED actually blows away the Noct. Nikkor in at pretty much everything, from low-light performance all the way up:

The internal design and build of the 58mm Ai is just so nice and the aperture opening is pretty round around f1/8-f/2.2 or so even though it's a 6 bladed lens, as indicated on Rolands pages.
Ais version just has less helicoil length that's it,,

If I were going to get a Noct., just as a collector's item, what in your experience is the better overall lens, the AI or the AI-S?

Small variances can be found for Nocts since it's a hand grinded aspherical front element and pretty much a hand build lens, rear element is fused into place at the rear - Also plenty of images here for that ones internals.

Understood, and thanks for taking the time to reply and share your insight.

Jack

PS: I was very interested in getting my lenses chipped at one point, but decided not to ... only to keep my lenses 100% "stock" and un-altered.

[Bjørn Rørslett]

.... Would for sure go for the 28/2 AI, except that my 28/2.8 has even more focus throw ... and reputed to be the better of the two, reversed.

The 28/2.8 AI is optically highly different from the AIS version, so in this case the question AI vs AIS cannot be decided on focusing features ...

The Noct-Nikkor is not a lens one can rank solely based on charts, and in most ways the same goes for the 'Neo-Noct' 58/1.4.

[Erik Lund]

Is a Dandelion a viable option for the Nikkor-S.C 55/1.2 as well? 
I guess you understand why I'm asking. 

He he We are a little off topic but ok it is re the differences in Ai vs Ais - Hope the moderators will allow,,, 

You had a 50mm 1.4 with Dandelion, and now you have one with a popper CPU,,,

As Bjørn mentions we where looking into this when Bjørn visited me for a chipping session where we uncovered some of the many differences in Ai vs Ais among them the difference in rear element size and position on the; Ai, Ais - 50,55 and 58mm lenses,,,

The trick to a successful chipping is that the contact block or Dandelion is outside the light 'opening' of the rear element.

The 58mm Noct Nikkor, 50mm and the 55mm 1.2 all have this opening painted directly on the rear element.

The reason is that this circle that is painted forms the out of focus highlights, if you paint it square the OOF wlil all be square, and in order for the aperture leaver in the camera body to clear the rear lens element while the lens is mounted, there has to be a cut out in the glass itself.

This cut also cuts into the rear aluminium element-housing, so very little is actually holding onto the rear element, only about 3/4 of the circumference.

This cut is naturally also painted black.

So to chip the Noct Nikkor I cut away the glass and the retaining aluminium until I reached the circle, the rest had to be trimmed of the rear of the CPU

Much less is cut with a Dandelion on a 50mm 1.4 Ais-  but 55mm 1.2 Ai has a huge rear element,,,

Basically chipping a 55mm 1.2 is just as difficult as chipping the Noct,,, Worth it - Not really IMHO

I believe I gave you a quote of 500€ plus parts and shipping, still stands. And no guarantee for not breaking the lens elements,,,

[chris dees]

He he We are a little off topic but ok it is re the differences in Ai vs Ais - Hope the moderators will allow,,, 

You had a 50mm 1.4 with Dandelion, and now you have one with a popper CPU,,,

As Bjørn mentions we where looking into this when Bjørn visited me for a chipping session where we uncovered some of the many differences in Ai vs Ais among them the difference in rear element size and position on the; Ai, Ais - 50,55 and 58mm lenses,,,

The trick to a successful chipping is that the contact block or Dandelion is outside the light 'opening' of the rear element.

The 58mm Noct Nikkor, 50mm and the 55mm 1.2 all have this opening painted directly on the rear element.

The reason is that this circle that is painted forms the out of focus highlights, if you paint it square the OOF wlil all be square, and in order for the aperture leaver in the camera body to clear the rear lens element while the lens is mounted, there has to be a cut out in the glass itself.

This cut also cuts into the rear aluminium element-housing, so very little is actually holding onto the rear element, only about 3/4 of the circumference.

This cut is naturally also painted black.

So to chip the Noct Nikkor I cut away the glass and the retaining aluminium until I reached the circle, the rest had to be trimmed of the rear of the CPU

Much less is cut with a Dandelion on a 50mm 1.4 Ais-  but 55mm 1.2 Ai has a huge rear element,,,

Basically chipping a 55mm 1.2 is just as difficult as chipping the Noct,,, Worth it - Not really IMHO

I believe I gave you a quote of 500€ plus parts and shipping, still stands. And no guarantee for not breaking the lens elements,,,

I'm still saving. 

[Erik Lund]

Glad to help John

For investing and the feeling I would get the Ais Noct-Nikkor first the later you can add the Ai if you feel like it, it is one of the best lenses, in an artistic way, I have ever worked with, it kicks in with so much Bokeh, color-transitions sharpness and out of focus smoothness galore.

If you have cash go get it!

I sold my chipped Noct-Nikkor, It took several days of work to chip even though I had the design drawings for the lens and several weeks of planning,,, I am very happy with the Neo-Noct 58 AFS 1.4 G It can do 98% of the same and with build in CPU - Even though the pixel peepers say otherwise, if you try it out for the 'intended' purpose it will deliver!

There will always be a lust for the Noct-Nikkor.

Chris you are bitten,,,

[Bjørn Rørslett]

I own both versions of the Noct-Nikkor and really don't bother which one is attached to my camera. Used wide or near wide open, they are essentially the same.

[Erik Lund]

BTW The Noct-Nikkor actually is exactly like the APO Lanthar 125mm 2.5 on many accounts;

Sharpness transition from sharp to unsharp - Color-transition, Bokeh - smooth tones that blend together, very very similar! Just to give an idea of the look and feel,,,

The Ai Noct-Nikkor has a lot of field curvature up close, maybe the Ais has less as far as I remember,,, I have only chipped 3 pieces of the Noct - Probably chipped 20 of the 125mm APO Lanthars,,,

[John Koerner]

The 28/2.8 AI is optically highly different from the AIS version, so in this case the question AI vs AIS cannot be decided on focusing features ...

Okay, thanks. At this point, I am satisfied with my 28 f/2.8 and have no desire to switch.

It is a rough-and-tumble, versatile lens for nature photography ... without worrying about "if it gets damaged."

The Noct-Nikkor is not a lens one can rank solely based on charts, and in most ways the same goes for the 'Neo-Noct' 58/1.4.

Actually, I think you can base everything on the charts.

The superiority (resolution) of the 105mm f/1.4 at the widest aperture is nearly double the Noct. at f/1.4 (and the corner resolution is nearly quadruple!).

That is not a 'minor' difference, that is H-U-G-E

However, it is easy to imagine a scenario where the Noct might still be the creative choice.

For example, if I were taking a photo of an old man smoking a cigarette, under a foglit streetlight, the Noct's lesser corner-sharpness (and lesser overall sharpness) might actually "set the mood" better than a razor-sharp image across the frame.

I actually think that super corner performance isn't always what you need, especially in a mostly-bokeh, with minimal-subject-focus type of image.

All of these things can be seen, imagined, and analyzed by looking at the MTF charts IMO ...

Jack

[John Koerner]

Glad to help John

For investing and the feeling I would get the Ais Noct-Nikkor first the later you can add the Ai if you feel like it, it is one of the best lenses, in an artistic way, I have ever worked with, it kicks in with so much Bokeh, color-transitions sharpness and out of focus smoothness galore.

If you have cash go get it!

I sold my chipped Noct-Nikkor, It took several days of work to chip even though I had the design drawings for the lens and several weeks of planning,,, I am very happy with the Neo-Noct 58 AFS 1.4 G It can do 98% of the same and with build in CPU - Even though the pixel peepers say otherwise, if you try it out for the 'intended' purpose it will deliver!

There will always be a lust for the Noct-Nikkor.

Chris you are bitten,,,

Great post.

I understand what you mean by its artistic uses, as I attempted to illustrate above.

Cheers,

[Bjørn Rørslett]

I can only repeat what I said earlier. The behaviour of the Noct-Nikkor is at best very difficult to predict from charts. Nothing wrong with the charts as such, but they are not the appropriate metric in this case.

[Erik Lund]

I'll have to agree with both of you;

One can tell a lot from MTF charts if you know how to look at them, mind you, they are mostly computer or simulation-based.

No way can you tell about sharpness transition, saturation or contrast looking on a curve,,,


I believe Lens rentals does a fairly good job when testing lenses, go and google what Robert has to say about the Neo-Noct

However; One can tell a whole lot more from the pictures if you know what to look for,,,

[John Koerner]

One can tell a lot from MTF charts if you know how to look at them, mind you, they are mostly computer or simulation-based.

Yep, exactly.

No way can you tell about sharpness transition, saturation or contrast looking on a curve,,,

Great point.

I believe Lens rentals does a fairly good job when testing lenses, go and google what Robert has to say about the Neo-Noct

Yep, again.

Also, what he has to say about the new Nikkor 105 f/1.4 ...

"The New King" ...

"I rarely get blown away ... and I am blown away" ...

"A spectacular performance" 

However; One can tell a whole lot more from the pictures if you know what to look for,,,

Yes again ... images are the ultimate arbiter.

Appreciate everyone's input 

[pluton]

I have one of the 55/1.2 K(Ai'd) and, though I have never shot the 58mm Noct, I can tell you that the 55/1.2 has pronounced spherical aberrations wide open that make the images even dreamier than the famous look of the old manual focus 35/1.4 wide open.  It really qualifies as a 'special effect' IMO.  I can't imagine the famous 58mm Noct looks that soft wide open.
Curiously, once stopped down to f/4 or more, the 55/1.2 K is a very contrasty, "sharp" lens.

[richardHaw]

a simple and broad generalisation from me from a teardown point of view.

Ai:
tougher construction
heavier
more screws
Nikon loves using glues in this generation but not as much as the New-Nikkors
tough,traditional construction with the lens barrel and optics separated

Ai-S:
lighter
clever tricks used to simplify complicated assemblies
cost-cutting on some parts (plastics, scotch tapes, plenty of brass shims)
optics casing sometimes incorporated in the lens barrel as cost-cutting and making things more compact/simplification

I personally like fixing the older Nikkors compared to Ai-S ones. it's like fixing a beetle compared to a ford focus 

[Erik Lund]

Thanks Rick! I agree Although I like to work on them equally

Short comment since the 105mm AFS 1.4 sneaked in;

The 105 AFS 1.4 has the same kind of sharpness transition as Noct-Nikkor however it has a very distinct swirly Bokeh especially in situations where the out of focus highlights are standing out against the back ground.

This I have not seen so much in the Noct-Nikkor but it is actually more or less identical to Leica M Noctilux 50mm f/1 and the f/0.95