Question on Leaf-Shutters

[Michael Erlewine]

Not sure whether to post here or in lenses, but to shutters are camera features, so here it is. I am trying to decide whether to get the new Hasselblad X1D (if it indeed arrives) or the Fuji GFX. I am familiar with focal-plane shutters from my DSLRs, etc., but not the “leaf shutter” that is in the lenses for the X1D?

My understanding is that the leaf shutter is most valuable for being able to synch with flashes at higher rates than 1/125 of a second. I have no strobe lights, but I do have some Nikon flashes. I never (hardly ever) use flash at all. I tend to use all constant lighting, so my questions are:

(1) How do I use the leaf-shutter lenses at higher rates to get greater DOF. And how valuable is that?

(2) Are there any pluses for using leaf-shutters for constant lighting or just for the kind of still-life photography work that I do? In other words, aside for flash are leaf shutters of any fvalue?

[Bjørn Rørslett]

A leaf shutter is incorporated in the lens itself, at the position of the aperture stop. It confers advantages and drawbacks compared to focal-plane shutters.

In the positive camp, a leaf shutter creates little vibrations, and allows for flash sync at any speed. They are also quite simple in design and maintenance is easy.

On the negative side, a leaf shutter is a necessary evil in the optical design and may directly influence what "speed" or optical solutions the designers come up with. It also adds to lens cost since in practice each lens has its own shutter. The shortest speeds are limited compared to focal-plane solutions. Don't expect shutter speeds to be very accurate, in particular the faster ones.

If one can use a camera with electronic "global" shutter, the leaf shutter becomes an anachronism.

The depth of field relates to the set aperture of the lens, not the shutter type per se.

[Michael Erlewine]

That was helpful, but I am still trying to understand what a leaf-shutter brings to my still-life (with no flash), if anything. I like the idea of no vibration. Wonderful. Yet, is there anything else that is good about it for my kind of focus-stacking whatever.

And, I should know this, but how does one use a leaf-shutter to sync flash? How would that help the kind of images I generally take?


Thanks for any info.

[Bjørn Rørslett]

The leaf shutter might be practically vibrationless, but needs to be cocked for every shot. Thus I'd imagine it isn't very practical for stacking applications. This with the caveat the leaf shutters on the newer systems might be controlled electronically not by mechanical means.

As for flash, all leaf shutter units have a flash synchro socket.

[bjornthun]

The leaf shutter on the new Hasselbal X1D lenses is electronically controlled, and cocking of the leaf shutter should be automatic. The Haselblad H system DSLR lenses also employed electronically controlled leaf shutters. The X1D lens leaf shutter has a max speed of 1/2000 sec.

I agree, once global shutter is a reality, one can only be happy that the lenses are without the extra parts and limitations that a leaf shutter entails. Until then pros will love the leaf shutter lenses for their 1/2000 sec flash sync speed.

[Michael Erlewine]

The leaf shutter on the new Hasselbal X1D lenses is electronically controlled, and cocking of the leaf shutter should be automatic. The Haselblad H system DSLR lenses also employed electronically controlled leaf shutters. The X1D lens leaf shutter has a max speed of 1/2000 sec.

I agree, once global shutter is a reality, one can only be happy that the lenses are without the extra parts and limitations that a leaf shutter entails. Until then pros will love the leaf shutter lenses for their 1/2000 sec flash sync speed.

The flash sync speed is the whole ballgame? No other benefits for those of us who don't use flash? It makes me wonder if I should be getting a Fuji GFX.

[paul_k]

Not sure whether to post here or in lenses, but to shutters are camera features, so here it is. I am trying to decide whether to get the new Hasselblad X1D (if it indeed arrives) or the Fuji GFX. I am familiar with focal-plane shutters from my DSLRs, etc., but not the “leaf shutter” that is in the lenses for the X1D?

My understanding is that the leaf shutter is most valuable for being able to synch with flashes at higher rates than 1/125 of a second. I have no strobe lights, but I do have some Nikon flashes. I never (hardly ever) use flash at all. I tend to use all constant lighting, so my questions are:

(1) How do I use the leaf-shutter lenses at higher rates to get greater DOF. And how valuable is that?

(2) Are there any pluses for using leaf-shutters for constant lighting or just for the kind of still-life photography work that I do? In other words, aside for flash are leaf shutters of any fvalue?

IMO for all intent and purpose using a leaf shutter lens like the ones for a Hasselblad has no added value in combination with a DSLR

Yes a leaf shutter will cause less vibration then a camera's focal plane shutter and a (D)SLR's mirror flipping up (although a range finder camera like eg the Leica M also is/was renowned for the lower vibrations due to the lack of a moving mirror) .
But with regards to DoF they work the same as 'normal' lenses, close down the aperture and your DoF area will get bigger
Similarly in my experience (I have use with Sinar P and F, Linhof Technika large format camera in the past, and still have a Hasselblad set collecting dust in a closet) there is no difference between working with flash or continuous light with a leaf shutter lens, or a focal plane shutter in a camera

If anything, a focal plane shutter speed lens is more accurate then a all mechanical leaf shutter lens (like the old Hasselblad V lenses), which can risk becoming less accurate at higher shutter speeds (if the lens has not been used for a prolonged period with the shutter kept under tension), and have a maximum shutter speed that doesn't go as high as a DSLR e.g. on a Nikon D800 1/8000th, Hasselblad H lens 1/800th (the X1D has based on the specs a higher synch speed, but, despite having handled it at a demonstration of Hasselblad Nothern Europe distributor, considering its very, very, very limited availability is IMO close to being vaporware)
Considering the max synch speed of most modern DSLR's, 1/250th on my D800 (and film SLR's like e.g. the FE2, F100), even 1/320th with Nikon speedlights, and faster in combination with triggers like the Pocket Wizards TT5, or using the camera in FP mode (although that comes at the cost of reduced output) the advantage of using leaf shutter lenses at higher shutter speeds when using flash is IMO relative

Also, to use e..g. a Hasselblad lens on your Nikon, to begin with, you'll need a 'leaf shutter lens to Nikon' adapter
The only ones I know of are for the 'old ' V type lenses, which have a completely different mount from the H punt lenses for the XID and other H system camera's

For the V type adapters, I haven't found/don't know any adapter which has some kind of mechanical coupling to trigger the leaf shutter through the camera's standard release button, so that excludes the theoretical option of keeping the camera/Nikon focal plane shutter wide open while taking the picture using the lenses' leaf shutter
Most (if not all?) have no mechanism to trigger the leaf shutter with, it's just a basic adapter with a Nikon mount on one side, and a, in this example Hasselblad V, 'receiving' mount on the other.
Theoretically I suppose you could work out a system similar to working with a macro photography bellows system, with two cable releases to simultaneously trigger the  camera and the lens
But that as far as I know isn't on the market so you would have to fabricate yourself

You put it on your Nikon, and mount the V type Hasselblad lens on the other side. To take the shot, you still use the focal plane shutter in your Nikon
But operation of/taking a shot with such a lens on a Nikon (D)SLRis is bit more complicated.

To begin with, since as said the/most adapters have no mechanism to trigger the leaf shutter, that simply isn't used, just the aperture mechanism in the lens, similar to a 'normal' lens, but without 'automatic' closing down of the aperture when the picture is taken
You leave the lens wide open to focus, but since there is no connection between the body and lens/aperture, can't use the lightmeter in the 'normal/wide open' wide. If you do want to use some kind of TTL metering, your only option is old (manual) fashioned stop down metering similar to using non electronically connected stop down metering (and consequently dimmer viewfinder while doing so)
To take the picture, you after focusing with a wide open lens, again have to stop down the aperture on the lens, after which you take the picture with the DSLR's (and SLR's) focal plane shutter.
Then open the aperture to get a clear image, to e.g. be able to (re)focus, and you're set to go for the next shot.

But, apart from the reputedly better optical performance of medium format lenses (I'm not a lens expert so can't comment on that) no added advantages of using a leaf shutter lens on a (D)SLR, just a lot of extra work.

[Roland Vink]

A leaf shutter built into a lens is a little like the aperture blades in the lens - they are blades which open and close. When the exposure is taken they open quickly and completely to expose the film/sensor, and then close quickly and completely when the exposure ends.

The fastest shutter speed is determined by how quickly the blades can open and close. To keep the shutter speed reasonably fast, the amount of travel is kept short, which means the lens diameter must be small - in other words leaf shutter lenses have relatively slow aperture compared to other lenses. That is why the new Hassy X1D lenses have smaller aperture than the equivalent Fuji GFX lenses.

The advantage of leaf shutter lenses is that they can flash sync at all shutter speeds, because when the shutter is open, the entire sensor is illuminated at once. With focal plane shutters, the entire sensor is only illuminated simultaneously at or below the flash-sync speed, which is usually 1/250 sec or slower depending on the camera model. At "faster" shutter speeds, the focal plane shutters do not move any faster, but the gap between the lead and trailing curtain narrows so that any part of the sensor is illuminated for a shorter time. At the fastest shutter speed only a very narrow slit is illuminated. This means flash cannot be used, or a series of pulses is needed so the entire sensor is illuminated (usually at lower power), or continuous lighting is required.

Michael, since your photography does not appear to rely on flash techniques, any advantage of the leaf shutter lens is lost, so you can set aside this feature in your assessments. If the optical quality, max aperture, close focus ability etc meet your requirements, then by all means use them, but the same goes for the Fuji system also. I hope that helps.

[Michael Erlewine]

That is why the new Hassy X1D lenses have smaller aperture than the equivalent Fuji GFX lenses.

If the GFX lenses have larger apertures than the X1D, is there any advantage to a larger vs. a smaller size.

[Akira]

The problem of using a non-dedicated leaf-shutter lens with X1D is that you still have to use the electronic shutter in the camera set to the (much) longer speed than the one in the lens, and thus you would have to operate the shutter of the camera and the lens, which should be really clumsy.

[Roland Vink]

If the GFX lenses have larger apertures than the X1D, is there any advantage to a larger vs. a smaller size.

You mean larger aperture? That's for you to answer. I'm not sure what apertures you mostly use. For stacking I imagine you use many layers at large-ish apertures so that you can throw the background out of focus, and still achieve critical sharpness on your subject. Are the apertures of the announced X1D lenses fast enough for you (45mm f/3.5 and 90mm f/3.2) ?? If you mostly (always) shoot at around f/4 or smaller, then there is no problem with the X1D system. If you need f/2.8 or faster it would be difficult to adapt other lenses to the X1D system since it relies on lenses with built-in leaf shutter - these are not common and mostly slow anyway.

Also, as I mentioned in another thread, if your primary purpose is for closeups, neither of the X1D lenses are macro or focus closing, they are pretty standard non-macro lenses, so not well suited to the type of image you mostly produce. I don't think any extension tubes are available for this system, you could try using high-quality closeup diopters. Either option is a compromise, you would probably get better quality from your D810 and CV 125/2.5 or Otus.

On the other hand, Fuji have announced a macro lens for their GFX system - the GF 120/4 macro. Admittedly the max aperture here is f/4 so you are still restricted to slow-ish apertures, but at least you get a lens which is well corrected for close range subjects. If you want the faster aperture there is also the GF 110/2. This is likely designed as a portrait lens - maybe some intentional spherical aberration and field curvature for smooth bokeh (my guess). I can't find any details on how close it focuses, my guess around 0.9m (3 feet) at best - ie normal distance for this focal length, not close focusing.

It is entirely possible that a macro lens (likely 120/4) will be announced for the Hassy X1D at some point in the future, which might tip the balance towards this system, but it could be years away, if ever. Until either system actually shows up, there is no way of knowing how well they actually perform, but based on the current specs alone, I think the Fuji GFX is better for your needs (based on your historical shooting).

[bjornthun]

Currently I don't think there is any way to adapt lenses to the Hasselblad X1D. I don't think there is any electronic shutter implemented in the camera. If there were, you probably wouldn't want to use it, due to various issues, like banding, readout time and dropping of bit depth. Since there is no focal plane shutter, there is no EFCS either.

=> With the X1D you can only use Hasselblad electronically controlled leaf shutter lenses.

With the Fuji GFX you have a focal plane shutter, so adapting lenses may be possible, if allowed in firmware. This is possible with the Fuji X system line of APS-C cameras.

Fuji has gained an excellent reputation with their X system lenses, and they have been keen on updating and improving the firmware in the X system camera, providing added value for their customers.

=> If Fuji continue all of this with their new medium format system, then Fuji GFX should be a great choice.

Considering the lens selection, Fujifilm as a lens maker is a well known quantity. Also Fujif GFX lenses have no leaf shutter, that will become redundant in the future with global shutters, which is plus for Fuji and a minus for Hasselblad, in my opinion. This assuming flash is not important.

A company called Nittoh in Japan makes the new lenses for the Hasselblad X1D. What do we know about Nittoh? For me this is still an unknown quantity.

=> Currently I would lean towards Fujifilm GFX, if I were to buy a medium format camera.

[Erik Lund]

If I was to venture into 'medium format' I would go all in for a Phase One XF 100MP, not just because it's Danish, which I'm quite proud of, but because it works,,, and it is a significant step up compared to even the D810,,,

Sensor 53.7 x 40.4 mm, 16 bit, 15 stop dynamic range, ISO 50,,,

It also features build in Focus Stacking,,,

Expensive, yes but please make an inventory and compare the two totals,,,

[elsa hoffmann]

I wouldn't sneeze at 100mp/  even though I don't need it.

Keep in mind that your PC/MAC needs to be able to keep up if you venture down this road.

[bjornthun]

Surely, Phase One must be working on a mirrorless system, if they wish to stay in business.

A 100mp DSLR medium format, will require mandatory use of mirror-up, if the capabilities of the 100mp resolution sensor is to be exploited. This means using the camera in LV mode for focus stacking.

My guess is that Fujifilm GFX and the Hasselblad X1D will have the lions share of the medium format market in 2017, unless Leica and Phase One go mirrorless medium format in 2017 too.

I think that medium format DSLR only makes sense for professionals already invested in such systems. Those new to medium format should go mirrorless, considering the future.