Debating Sony and Fuji for APS-C non-Nikon system

[RobOK]

You just need to put on a 28-70mm 2.8 AFS or 24-70mm 2.8 AFS - You will be blown away by the AF speed! I promise.

I was suspecting my lens selection was playing a part which is why I listed which ones I had. I got the 24-120 f4 as a compromise, but maybe too much of a compromise in the AF department!  I don't know if a 24-70 is in my future or not, maybe used.

[RobOK]

BTW, sorry for mixing two topics in one thread --- one is moving to an alternate kit, and the side topic is Df low light AF. Both of interest to me!!

[PeterN]

In APS-C I would go for Fuji. Their lenses are fantastic. I especially liked the X-T1 with the 16,23, 35, and 56mm prime lenses. These are clearly targeted to photographers and do have some smart features. For macro the 60mm is incredibly sharp, but painfully slow (the Zeiss 50mm is a better option). I added the X100T to have a one camera- one lens solution. My main issue with the X100T was that I could not comfortably hold it. Camera-size is fine but lens was too small for me (I like to use my left hand to support/hold the lens). The 23mm Fuji lens worked better for me. I also looked at Sony but the Fuji is - in my opinion - more a photographer's tool that is fun to use. Esp. the X-T1 with its dials for ISO, shutter speed and Aperture. But also the implementation of the priority functions.  Nevertheless, last year september I decided to sell my entire Fuji set. I did not like the slow AF (much improved in the X-T2) and I had to constantly correct colours in LR when I processed raw files. Jpegs were fine (in fact, I only used jpeg with my X100T). Another thing I missed was the intangible "3D pop" and the clarity of full frame sensors with bigger pixels. Therefore I switched to the D750, although I also considered the Df.

In your case, I may consider sticking to the Df with some light(er) lenses. It's the weight of the lenses that make the difference, not the camera. Just take an X-T1/X-T2 (with the 16-55, 50-140, and 100-400 lenses with you. Your back won't like it. I decided to opt for the D750 with light(er)weight lenses: 24mm 1.8G, 58mm, 70-200 f4, and 300mm PF f4. The only exception is my 35mm lens: a sigma art 1.4. But I am about to add a lightweight nikon alternative for travel.

More recently, I thought about adding a lightweight alternative, including the X-T2 (or x-pro2) but concluded that the D750 with 3 lightweight f1.8/4 lenses works equally well.

There are two mirrorless cameras that Iremain interested in (besides the upcoming medium-format Fuji): the Leica Q and Sony RX1 (ii). Excellent size and wonderful output. IMHO, a fullframe mirrorless camera does not make a lot of sense if you add fast lenses (or converters) because it won't save you noticeable weight. I also thought about the Df but the D750 is about the same size and weight. Maybe the Df successor will convince me. So for now, my travel camera is the D750.

[RobOK]

In your case, I may consider sticking to the Df with some light(er) lenses. It's the weight of the lenses that make the difference, not the camera. Just take an X-T1/X-T2 (with the 16-55, 50-140, and 100-400 lenses with you. Your back won't like it. I decided to opt for the D750 with light(er)weight lenses: 24mm 1.8G, 58mm, 70-200 f4, and 300mm PF f4. The only exception is my 35mm lens: a sigma art 1.4. But I am about to add a lightweight nikon alternative for travel.

More recently, I thought about adding a lightweight alternative, including the X-T2 (or x-pro2) but concluded that the D750 with 3 lightweight f1.8/4 lenses works equally well.

Peter, thanks for your thoughts... I do love the Df, but sometimes it is just too big... but you are right, going with a couple small primes makes it much smaller package overall compared to the 24-120 f4. 

I think if size is an important factor in a second kit, Fuji might not help that much.

As a practical matter, neither the A6500 or Fuji X-T2 are in stock anywhere!!!

Rob.

[Akira]

Rob, I used to use Sony NEX-5N/R/T for their compactness.  However, the earlier E mount lenses (especially the silver ones) dedicated for APS-C size was not all that good in terms of image quality.  The black lenses like 10-18 zoom, 20/2.8 or 35/1.8 are pretty decent.  But the newer lenses tend to be quite big.

The compactness of mirrorless camera systems have been promoted as one of their strongest advantages over DSLRs, but both the bodies as well as lenses are becoming larger and larger.

Of course, they are still smaller than the full-frame DSLRs you already own, but adapting smaller lenses on Nikon would noticeably reduce the bulk and weight.

I consider my D750 and AF-S 50/1.8G combo fairly compact and lightweight, and Ai-P 45/2.8 makes the combo even more handy.  Since I had purchased 45P a few weeks ago, it has been virtually glued on my D750.  The combo is very comfortable to carry around hanging from my shoulder, as the lens doesn't hit my arm when I walk. 

[JJChan]

I've just been traveling to Kyoto. I had been 'relegated' to D800E as my son took my Df.
My daughter however carried the D5200 with AFS 24-85 non VR which has turned out to be a very nice light and capable travel kit. The D5200 is lighter than the XT2 and far faster and more instant than the Sony A series (maybe not Af but instant on, instant capture of moment). The sensor is good and it just works well.

If you have a few AFS lenses, don't discount the D3XXX and D5XXX series as very fast light and functional APS-C cameras....

JJ

[bjornthun]

The Nikon and Canon APS-C/DX DSLRs also suffer from a limited choice of crop primes at the wide end, just like Sony APS-C mirrorless. The only smaller than 35mm format systems that will give you fairly good selection of primes is m43 and the Fujifilm X system. Those are what I would look, if I wanted something to compliment a 35mm format DSLR system. Even Leica M can be considered, if you get a used M9 and go for Voigtländer lenses, and you're OK with manual focusing.

The viewfinders of crop DSLRs are smaller than the EVFs of m43/APS-C mirrorless cameras.

[Akira]

Another consideration to use a mirrorless camera is the battery.

When I used NEX-5 series, I always needed at least one second battery.  FW-50 is fairly large, but the camera is rewally power hungry.  When I went to Germany for an assignment which included taking many picutures of all-day events for three days, I took two NEX-5R bodies, three batteries and one charger.  The remaining power of all three batteries after each day's shooting was around 30%.  It took around three hours to full-charge one battery, which meant that I had to wake up after three hours to replace the fully charged battery with the next one.  Oh yes, I should have brought USB power adapters to charge a battery in the body, but the adapters needed to be purchased separately.

I needed at least a second battery for all other mirrorless cameras I have used over the years: Panasonic G1, GH2, GX8, Sony NEX-5N/R/T. Olympus E-M5 MkII.

On the other hand, I've never been in need of another battery for all of DSLRs I have used: Nikon D2H, D7000 (twice), D610, D750 (which I currently use) and Canon 5D MkIII.

Hope this would be of some food for thoughts.

[bjornthun]

The original poster, RobOK, asks for an alternative, to compliment his Nikon setup.

M43 can compliment a Nikon setup. A setup with Oly 12/2, PanaLeica 25/1.4 and the Oly 45/1.8 will give you three small and fast lenses, that will work in most situations. These lenses are small enough, that they will work in social settings as well, without intimidating the subjects. The only way to get similarly small lenses in the "full frame" world is a Leica M rangefinder setup. Both Olympus offer cameras with IBIS, which is a very useful feature. The Oly 12/2 has a 46mm filter thread compared to a 72mm filter thread for the Nikon 24/1.8, this is a clear difference in a social setting. A "full frame" Leica Summicron-M 28/2 also has a 46mm filter thread, helping to make Leica a "discrete" camera.

Battery life is easily taken care of by bringing an extra battery, or two. Mirrorless cameras will typically give 250-350 shots per battery charge according to CIPA standard.

[Akira]

Rob also mentioned the travel as one of the occasions to use cameras.  When you are traveling, sometimes you may not have enough time to charge batteries.  Spare batteries helps only when you can have time to recharge them.

When you travel today, you are very likely to carry gadgets that need to charge: a smartphone, a tablet or a laptop.  If a camera need less care about the battery, that will help.

Big lenses intimidates people for sure, that's why I mentioned smaller lenses to adapt.  I used the very AF-S 24/1.8G for an alumni party, and some of my friends were intimidated.  An Ais 24/2.8 would be handy, and the "green dot" focus confirmation will help.

[bjornthun]

I've travelled with mirrorless, and batteries and charging hasn't been an issue. Sometimes the weight and size of a DSLR with lenses were issues when travelling. The discretion of a mirrorless with a silent shutter is also nice in social settings. Hence also the Leica M with its' quiet shutter.

The Leica M system is nice for travel too, but you have to live with 90mm/135mm as a limit depending on which you're able to focus with an rf viewfinder.

[RobOK]

I'm loving all the discussions... it has made me step back and consider what I am after more. The points about social situations IS a factor for me. Sometimes having the Df and the 24-120 f4 zoom feels "too big" for the room.

bjornthun, For some reason I have a mental block with m43, not for any particular reason.

For now, I bought some rubber cement (contact cement) and I am going to fix the grips on both my Df and my Sony NEX-7 this weekend. I'm going to keep working the Sony as my smaller kit, the key question there is whether the E lenses are worth continuing forward with (and then getting a newer Sony body).

I'm going to take out my primes more on the Df. I went to an event last night (kid's concert) and went with my Df and 58mm which was a mistake, I needed a zoom in that case. Oh well.  I also have access to my daughters D5500, so i'll use that as another smaller kit.  I am contemplating a smaller nikon lens, either the 45P or the Voightlander 40.

For now, no Fuji.

All really good discussions!

Rob.

[David H. Hartman]

For now, I bought some rubber cement (contact cement) and I am going to fix the grips on both my Df and my Sony NEX-7 this weekend.

The cement used on Nikons at least through the F3HP, FM3a and others of this build style was PLIOBOND a kind of contact cement that can be removed without damage to the camera or leatherette used before the use of self stick rubber as on the F4 and later.

I strongly recommend against using a common contact cement that dries hard. It's not friendly to future repairs. PLIOBOND remains pliable of decades of has a firm grip. You'll net to clean off the residue, if any from the stick on rubber coverings on both the camera and the rubber.

These days it's probably better to replace the rubber coverings with genuine replacement parts.

Best,

Dave Hartman

[RobOK]

The cement used on Nikons at least through the F3HP, FM3a and others of this build style was PLIOBOND a kind of contact cement that can be removed without damage to the camera or leatherette used before the use of self stick rubber as on the F4 and later.

I strongly recommend against using a common contact cement that dries hard. It's not friendly to future repairs. PLIOBOND remains pliable of decades of has a firm grip. You'll net to clean off the residue, if any from the stick on rubber coverings on both the camera and the rubber.

These days it's probably better to replace the rubber coverings with genuine replacement parts.

Best,

Dave Hartman

Thanks Dave, I had not heard of that. I was using guidance from this thread: http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,818.msg17331.html#msg17331

If the rubber grip seems fine, but is just coming off, do you see any need to replace it vs. just re-gluing it?

Thanks,
Rob.

[bjornthun]

I'm loving all the discussions... it has made me step back and consider what I am after more. The points about social situations IS a factor for me. Sometimes having the Df and the 24-120 f4 zoom feels "too big" for the room.

bjornthun, For some reason I have a mental block with m43, not for any particular reason.

For now, I bought some rubber cement (contact cement) and I am going to fix the grips on both my Df and my Sony NEX-7 this weekend. I'm going to keep working the Sony as my smaller kit, the key question there is whether the E lenses are worth continuing forward with (and then getting a newer Sony body).

I'm going to take out my primes more on the Df. I went to an event last night (kid's concert) and went with my Df and 58mm which was a mistake, I needed a zoom in that case. Oh well.  I also have access to my daughters D5500, so i'll use that as another smaller kit.  I am contemplating a smaller nikon lens, either the 45P or the Voightlander 40.

For now, no Fuji.

All really good discussions!

Rob.

Which Sony E lenses do you have?