Author Topic: Lenses focal length  (Read 26950 times)

Matthew Currie

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #105 on: July 18, 2016, 16:39:58 »
I agree with the above, except to remember that all formats are a product aberration.  FX is arbitrary too, depending on the size of 35 mm. film, which is in its turn arbitrary, and so forth.  The native superiority of one format over another is relevant only as long as improvements are applied to it.  None of the refinements that turned the terrible, low fidelity audio cassette into a listenable medium were unavailable to other formats, but for various reasons not directly related to native audio quality they were not applied.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #106 on: July 18, 2016, 16:57:16 »
Thanks Simone for writing so clearly about the topic. I think eventually, photography textbooks should be rewritten to better reflect current technology and the physics of imaging. With film, sensitivity was largely fixed and most film types were available in only one or two speeds, and the photon detection wasn't as efficient as it is today. Photographers would use film and they'd know that fast film yields grainier images, but most didn't really stop to think why it is so. It's because recording only a small amount of light leads to uncertainty in the measured quantities because of the randomness of the arrival times of individual photons. This is the not the complete picture (there are other sources of noise which fortunately tend to become less significant as technology matures) but it's the one factor which cannot be removed by any advance in technology, thus it is important to understand.  Today we have sensors where the ISO can be adjusted across a huge range and the image quality (in terms of SNR) closely approximates the limits of what is theoretically possible. This has meant that the imaging systems can be now understood using a theoretical framework which considers relatively simple physical principles first, and leaves the complex implementation details out (at least in the first approximation), yet this theoretical analysis gives useful results which are close to what is experienced in real life using these new systems. Hence the models can be helpful to aid understanding how different cameras can be used to create similar results (certain things are not dependent on the imaging system but stem from the fundamentals of the physics of imaging and optics) and also to elucidate the underlying physics of why results using given settings and setups are different.

I can understand that a photographer working in practice needs to use the tools that are in hand and cannot replace them with tools that might exist only in theory. However, it cannot hurt to try to understand basic principles in different ways. Richard Feynman was famous for his ability to come up with different analogous models to explain physical and mathematical phenomena. This kind of thinking is very useful and deepens one's understanding. Of course, none of these explanations is really the "why" of how things work the way they work in nature. That kind of question cannot be answered. What we know is certain basic principles such as the conservation of momentum can be used to explain and predict a lot of physical phenomena and these principles are widely used in engineering. It should be the same with photography. The usefulness of a model or theory is validated by applying the model or theory to predict the result of a new experiment.

Today many sensors are close enough to the "ideal sensor" that simple principles can be applied with great success, as shown by the dpreview.com article on equivalence. There is no "snake oil" being sold here. Equivalence predicts, for example, that if the camera position, shutter speed, angle of view, and depth of field are set the same, then the signal-to-noise in the final image will be about the same as well in the final print (of the same size, viewed from the same position), independently of the sensor size. This is a very important result and an important validation of the usefulness of the theory. It is helpful because it tells us as photographers that at diffraction limited apertures, noise is really a function of how much depth of field you want, not a question of which format you choose to work with. I'm assuming here that subject movement (e.g. due to wind or another reason) forces us to use a certain shutter speed and thus shutter speed is not a parameter we can play with. Thus a macro photographer who needs reasonable depth of field can work with whatever format they find the most practical and will not be punished in terms of image quality until the lens becomes aberration limited instead of diffraction limited. Another, interesting result from theory is that if we set depth of field so that the lens is diffraction limited, at equal depth of field, all formats suffer the same amount of blur due to diffraction. Essentially small formats are very good tools for photographing small subjects whenever you need a lot of depth of field. Larger formats can give the same results but they are larger and more expensive.  However, what favours larger formats are the aberrations at wide apertures. For shallow depth of field work, larger formats are preferable because relative to image size the aberrations play a smaller role (at least in central areas of the image) and you get to choose from a larger range of apertures which give "good enough" detail in the final image. All of these results can be understood by theory and are confirmed by practical experience.

However, in certain cases an individual tool has a distinct advantage. For example there is no DX equivalent to the 24/1.4 on FX, a lens that would give a similar picture on DX as that lens at its maximum aperture gives on FX. Another thing is that if you are not comparing equal shutter speed cases,  then you may find that one tool works better. For example there is no DX equivalent to a D810 set to ISO 64. Not in terms of resolution of the final image nor in the dynamic range. But these are "fringe" areas where the implementation of a particular camera is unique and offers an advantage. Similarly a DX camera can give more detail in good light than an FX camera using the longest lens you have. Thus not everything can be replaced by an equivalent something else.

Andrea B.

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #107 on: July 18, 2016, 17:14:43 »
Simone:  As far as I can see, this topic is not about photography specifically. It is about optics and digital sensors....There is no artistic aspect to this topic as far as I can see. It is purely technical/scientific.

Exactly.

******

I'm just not sure what the confusion is about equivalence?? (Or whatever one wants to call it.)
What is it that people are not understanding? Perhaps there is/was simply a confusion in the terminology??

There are several clear explanations in this thread.
And there is a really good link to detailed explanations.

Les Olson

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #108 on: July 18, 2016, 18:47:50 »
If you are interested in how big the bokeh balls are relative to the imaged subject (as opposed to the scale of the blurred object), then it is indeed the absolute size of the entrance pupil that matters -- irrespective of magnification or focal length (assuming that the point light source is far away and that the angle of the parallel rays to the optical axis is small).


That is true of specular highlights.  Here are two images, taken from the same place, one with a 50mm at f/5 and one with an 85mm at f/8, so (roughly) the same absolute aperture.  Both lenses were focussed at 0.8m.  The specular highlights are indeed the shape of the aperture and (roughly) the same size.  But areas other than specular highlights - the fence railings, eg - scale with magnification.   

Frank Fremerey

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #109 on: July 18, 2016, 19:54:05 »
I'm just not sure what the confusion is about equivalence?? (Or whatever one wants to call it.)
What is it that people are not understanding? Perhaps there is/was simply a confusion in the terminology??
There are several clear explanations in this thread.
And there is a really good link to detailed explanations.

Andrea B. I feel the thread is much about Physics for everybody but the thread opener. That is why the nice people here taking some effort to rephrase the issue over and over again, ignore the original impuls so elegantly.



Love, Frank

You are out there. You and your camera. You can shoot or not shoot as you please. Discover the world, Your world. Show it to us. Or we might never see it.

Me: https://youpic.com/photographer/frankfremerey/

simsurace

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #110 on: July 18, 2016, 21:43:18 »
That is true of specular highlights.  Here are two images, taken from the same place, one with a 50mm at f/5 and one with an 85mm at f/8, so (roughly) the same absolute aperture.  Both lenses were focussed at 0.8m.  The specular highlights are indeed the shape of the aperture and (roughly) the same size.  But areas other than specular highlights - the fence railings, eg - scale with magnification.
I'm not saying the balls don't scale with magnification. I'm just saying that their size relative to the subject in the plane of sharp focus does not scale with magnification. I don't see why the behaviour should be different for point sources and for points of a railing. All light rays behave the same.

My understanding is that if I want to design a shot with a 5cm flower (which is in focus) and a bokeh ball such that the flower is the same size as the bokeh ball in the final image, I need a lens that has at least an entrance pupil of 5cm, no matter how big the flower and the bokeh ball will appear in the final image. Thus, I could take this shot with a 300/4 lens (stopped down slightly) but not with a 50/1.4 lens. The size relationship of the flower and the ball will be the same regardless of the distance to the subject provided that the light source that produces the bokeh ball is at infinity. If I focus and move closer to the flower, I will have an image with a big flower and a big ball, if I move further away, both the flower and the ball will become smaller until they both become close to a point if I'm on the other side of the solar system.

(This is easy to see if one draws a diagram of the marginal parallel light rays coming from the point source (the rays that just make it through the aperture) and thinks of the intersections of these rays with the subject plane as the margins of an imaginary planar light source. The physical size of this source is the same as the size of the entrance pupil.)
Simone Carlo Surace
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simsurace

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #111 on: July 19, 2016, 00:53:58 »
I'm just not sure what the confusion is about equivalence??

One thing that keeps popping up over and over again is that equivalence theory apparently contradicts the fact that external light meters work (taking issue with the theory placing more importance on total light vs. exposure). This is of course a false assertion. Light meters do work and they give you a reading in terms of exposure that is applicable to all formats in the same way. It is nevertheless true that total light has a certain importance depending on how you look at the whole situation. There is no contradiction. The important questions are: how important is exposure really? How should we expose our sensors to get optimal data? Has anything changed from film to digital in the way we expose?

Most of the other issues that people have are hard for me to identify. We need people to explain them more clearly.
Simone Carlo Surace
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JohnMM

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #112 on: July 19, 2016, 06:51:06 »
The important questions are: how important is exposure really? How should we expose our sensors to get optimal data? Has anything changed from film to digital in the way we expose?

The first question is surely : what do we mean by "exposure" ? The word is used in at least two ways, often by different people in a single conversation, and confusion can arise.  My preferred usage is that from Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposure_(photography) ) : In photography, exposure is the amount of light per unit area (the image plane illuminance times the exposure time) reaching a photographic film or electronic image sensor, as determined by shutter speed, lens aperture and scene luminance. However what then the role of ISO and the "exposure triangle", where ISO is given an equal importance with aperture and shutter speed ? To my mind, the exposure triangle describes output "brightness" rather than exposure - but many would disagree. The subject has received much attention on DPRev recently.

We are often told that exposure is fundamental and doesn't change from when moving from film to digital. However the device (film or electronic sensor) response to light differs. For film we have the characteristic "S-shaped" Hunter-Driffield or "characteristic" curves. The digital sensor is largely linear. So actions like "expose for the shadows and develop for the highlights" - or is it the other way round - might be useful for film but not for the electronic sensor. For the electronic sensor there is nothing to be gained by not collecting the maximum amount of light. So shutter speed is chosen to minimise movement blur - or maybe to allow it, aperture is chosen for DOF and/or the optimum performance of the lens and the natural scene illuminance is accepted - or maybe supplemented with flash. Exposure, as defined by Wiki is then determined. Knowledge of the sensor read noise as a function of ISO enables the optimum camera setting. If a picture is not bright enough, or too bright, perhaps people could say so without referring to "underexposure" or "overexposure".

John Maud - aka Coreopsis in another place.

Les Olson

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #113 on: July 19, 2016, 09:01:41 »
I'm not saying the balls don't scale with magnification. I'm just saying that their size relative to the subject in the plane of sharp focus does not scale with magnification. I don't see why the behaviour should be different for point sources and for points of a railing. All light rays behave the same.

My understanding is that if I want to design a shot with a 5cm flower (which is in focus) and a bokeh ball such that the flower is the same size as the bokeh ball in the final image, I need a lens that has at least an entrance pupil of 5cm, no matter how big the flower and the bokeh ball will appear in the final image. Thus, I could take this shot with a 300/4 lens (stopped down slightly) but not with a 50/1.4 lens. The size relationship of the flower and the ball will be the same regardless of the distance to the subject provided that the light source that produces the bokeh ball is at infinity. If I focus and move closer to the flower, I will have an image with a big flower and a big ball, if I move further away, both the flower and the ball will become smaller until they both become close to a point if I'm on the other side of the solar system.


In that case I don't understand what you mean by "bokeh ball".  If you mean the image of an isolated (AKA "specular") highlight then no: they do not get smaller as you move away precisely because they are an image of the aperture, which is the same size however far away you are from the subject.  If by bokeh ball you mean the image of something roundish that has lost all form because it is far out of focus then its size does change in step with the in focus area, regardless of the aperture.  Here is an example: 85mm at f/4, focused at 0.8m, from nearer and further.  The specular highlights are the same size, but the other features of the car are smaller as you get further away. 

simsurace

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #114 on: July 19, 2016, 09:19:31 »
In that case I don't understand what you mean by "bokeh ball".  If you mean the image of an isolated (AKA "specular") highlight then no: they do not get smaller as you move away precisely because they are an image of the aperture, which is the same size however far away you are from the subject.  If by bokeh ball you mean the image of something roundish that has lost all form because it is far out of focus then its size does change in step with the in focus area, regardless of the aperture.  Here is an example: 85mm at f/4, focused at 0.8m, from nearer and further.  The specular highlights are the same size, but the other features of the car are smaller as you get further away.

You are correct, however in my example I implied a refocus with changing distance (to get the flower sharp at the new distance). The ball I was talking about was from a point light source at infinity and not part of the main subject. Your examples don't show this because firstly, you don't have anything sharp to compare the scale of the ball to, and secondly, you did not move your focus ring between the two examples. Of course the ball gets smaller as you focus further away, which was my point, and my second point was that the subject will get smaller by the same factor because you move further away as you refocus, keeping the ratio of their sizes the same throughout. I don't think we disagree here.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #115 on: July 19, 2016, 11:40:32 »
Exposing for the shadows (when using negative film) implies metering shadow areas, and ensuring they are given enough exposure. That means giving more exposure (not less) than exposing for the highlights.

JohnMM

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #116 on: July 19, 2016, 12:08:16 »
Exposing for the shadows (when using negative film) implies metering shadow areas, and ensuring they are given enough exposure. That means giving more exposure (not less) than exposing for the highlights.

Thank you. You reveal my ignorance in using film. I don't know much about it because I never used it. And yet, when I started taking photographs using a digital camera, many film users were trying to use their existing film techniques for digital. I'm suggesting that this is not always appropriate. You may wish to select the linear region of the light-response curve of film, but in a digital sensor the response is almost wholly linear - except maybe near saturation.
John Maud - aka Coreopsis in another place.

David H. Hartman

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #117 on: July 19, 2016, 12:10:50 »
Les,

To my eye the blur that is the tail lights of the car in your second photograph has become as big as the blur from the specular light source.

My interest is having the background blurred to the extent that items in the background aren't particularly recognizable so they do not compete with the subject and having a sharp subject against a softly blurred background makes the subject "pop" as is frequently said. Also for some subjects I don't want to sacrifice my preferred or chosen perspective so I don't want to use a longer lens on a small format to gain a larger entrance pupil.

The first time I tried a 105/2.5 Nikkor-P on my Nikon F I loved the look. The best I can do on DX is use an 85/2.0 and backup and have a flatter perspective than I want.   

Dave
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Les Olson

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #118 on: July 19, 2016, 14:47:34 »
Les,

To my eye the blur that is the tail lights of the car in your second photograph has become as big as the blur from the specular light source.

My interest is having the background blurred to the extent that items in the background aren't particularly recognizable so they do not compete with the subject and having a sharp subject against a softly blurred background makes the subject "pop" as is frequently said. Also for some subjects I don't want to sacrifice my preferred or chosen perspective so I don't want to use a longer lens on a small format to gain a larger entrance pupil.

The first time I tried a 105/2.5 Nikkor-P on my Nikon F I loved the look. The best I can do on DX is use an 85/2.0 and backup and have a flatter perspective than I want.   


I can't tell where the tail lights begin and end in either case.  The exposures are slightly different - 1/80 in one case and 1/125 in the other because more of the brightly lit foreground is included in the wider shot so the car itself is slightly darker.   

However, the specular highlights are the size of the aperture and do not change in size with distance.  Obviously, the image of the car is smaller when the camera is further away.  So the specular highlights are bigger relative to the car when the camera is further away.  If the blur zones of non-highlight areas - the line between the white of the car and the shadow underneath the car, eg - behaved the same way as the highlights the apparent blurriness of the image would increase as the camera moved further away, and it doesn't.   

An alternative to an 85mm on DX (diagonal aov 19 degrees) and more distance as an approximation to 105mm on FX (diagonal aov 23 degrees) is a 58mm on DX (diagonal aov 27 degrees) and a discreet crop or a slightly smaller distance for framing and an adjusted aperture for DoF.  But unless you are placing the subject very close to both edges of the image, I don't see that 1-2 degrees at either side is photographically significant.  (People who don't have these lenses can simulate the difference: your hand with thumb and fingers spread and held at arm's length subtends about 20 degrees and your index finger at arm's length is 1 degree). 

David H. Hartman

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Re: Lenses focal length
« Reply #119 on: July 19, 2016, 19:49:53 »
Les,

58mm is even shorter than 70mm so the entrance pupil is smaller in spite of being an f/1.4 or f/1.2. I own a 50/1.2, 50/1.8 and 60/2.8 and also a paper weight AF 70/2.8D Nikkor with a decentered element or group. None of these gives me what I have with a 105/2.5 AIS in terms of background blurring with a subject at 2m or so and a more distant background. For me the easy choice is FX (24x36mm).

Dave
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