Author Topic: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?  (Read 117388 times)

Hugh_3170

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #255 on: October 25, 2017, 05:36:05 »
An interesting question in here.

I wonder in the years ahead just how well the future RAW file converters will support the RAW files from our current day (& of course earlier) cameras for what will certainly be by then  legacy file formats and whether such future advances in image processing will thereby enable us to go back to our "old" RAW files and extract additional information out of them?  Time will tell. 

I do say "record in RAW and keep your RAW files secure" to then hopefully allow superior software to get more out of them in the future.

************************************ 

BTW, have a great trip to the South East.


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While the camera is old tech I wonder if modern software doesn't compliment it to a degree. Capture NX-D still supports the 10 mp NEF interpolation.That surprised me. So Im off to capture the final gasp of Fall here in the Southeastern United States and the D1X will go along for the ride. A paperweight to some perhaps but I think ill keep her.
Hugh Gunn

David H. Hartman

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #256 on: October 25, 2017, 07:06:15 »
An interesting question in here.

I wonder in the years ahead just how well the future RAW file converters will support the RAW files from our current day....
My understanding is the Nikon NEF is at its heart a TIFF file and I'll guess that other RAW files from other makes are also. I would think a flat TIFF can be extracted easily from today's RAW files provided that the media can be read by future computers.

Dave Hartman
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Akira

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #257 on: October 25, 2017, 07:41:05 »
My understanding is the Nikon NEF is at its heart a TIFF file and I'll guess that other RAW files from other makes are also. I would think a flat TIFF can be extracted easily from today's RAW files provided that the media can be read by future computers.

Dave Hartman

I've also heard or read that RAW files are essentially TIFF in general.  But the problem is that most files are compressed, lossily or losslessly.  The compression algorithm would be proprietary and different according to the manufacturers.  When/if the algorithms are no more supported by the RAW converters in the future, those compressed files won't be able to be decoded.
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #258 on: October 25, 2017, 08:58:23 »
Anyone know what kind of compression Nikon uses with lossless NEF(s)?
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TedBaker

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #259 on: October 25, 2017, 13:38:20 »
Anyone know what kind of compression Nikon uses with lossless NEF(s)?

LZW, same as used in TIFF and many other applications since the 80's

The Nikon NEF file is a variation on the TIFF file format, fortunately current versions have been reverse engineered so there will always be away to convert it that doesn't rely on nikon software.

I do say "record in RAW and keep your RAW files secure" to then hopefully allow superior software to get more out of them in the future.

If you convert to a lossless format like compressed TIFF, the only information you might leave behind is propriety meta data in the file.

However its critical that you do the conversion correctly, so perhaps it's wise to keep an old copy of 'that precious image", rather than delete the original.

After all 10101010101 is always 10101010101

Danulon

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #260 on: May 04, 2018, 00:36:59 »
I just reactivated my Kodak Retinareflex III - my very first SLR... :-)
Hopefully posting some pictures soon.


Cheers,
Günther

Guenther Something

Øivind Tøien

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #261 on: May 04, 2018, 02:25:56 »
LZW, same as used in TIFF and many other applications since the 80's

The Nikon NEF file is a variation on the TIFF file format, fortunately current versions have been reverse engineered so there will always be away to convert it that doesn't rely on nikon software.

If you convert to a lossless format like compressed TIFF, the only information you might leave behind is propriety meta data in the file.

However its critical that you do the conversion correctly, so perhaps it's wise to keep an old copy of 'that precious image", rather than delete the original.

After all 10101010101 is always 10101010101

If you convert to TIFF and throw away the NEF, even with the best conversions, you will loose the ability to adjust white balance, and exposure compensation besides all the setting in the develop section, including picture controls and noise reduction in in the different versions of CNX and ViewNX (and need 5x the storage space to retain the data in uncopressed TIFFs). So yes, better keep the NEFs. Metadata do matter, importing a TIFF is not the same, even if some metadata are retained. And one cannot take advantage of any alternative or future improvements in demosaicing algorithms with a TIFF as it is a done deal.
Øivind Tøien

Hugh_3170

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #262 on: May 04, 2018, 04:30:49 »
+1

I agree with all of this, but especially with: "And one cannot take advantage of any alternative or future improvements in demosaicing algorithms with a TIFF as it is a done deal.".


If you convert to TIFF and throw away the NEF, even with the best conversions, you will loose the ability to adjust white balance, and exposure compensation besides all the setting in the develop section, including picture controls and noise reduction in in the different versions of CNX and ViewNX (and need 5x the storage space to retain the data in uncopressed TIFFs). So yes, better keep the NEFs. Metadata do matter, importing a TIFF is not the same, even if some metadata are retained. And one cannot take advantage of any alternative or future improvements in demosaicing algorithms with a TIFF as it is a done deal.
Hugh Gunn

Frode

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #263 on: May 04, 2018, 06:55:05 »
Yesterday I bought a «used» D700 with only 870 exposures made with it 🙂. Looks and «feels» new (been stored due to health problems). A fast buy since the seller live in the same area/town. Nice price as well 🙂.

Even though I’ve got my D4s, I must say I’m a bit «in love» again; the size, sound of the shutter AND the D2X profiles 🙂.

I needed a second body and was thinking about a used D810 in the first place, but found that for my photography I don’t need that amount of MP. IQ- wise what the D700 offers is more than enough, for my usage.

D4s for wildlife/sport and D700 as a walkaround, for now. Actually, I’m considering selling my D4s and saving the money for later camera- investment.....

Peter Forsell

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #264 on: May 04, 2018, 09:15:36 »
While all that's said above about TIFF is correct, there's one more thing to remember. TIFF itself is a container type, not encoding type. While NEF file uses the TIFF container, there is no demosaicked 8 or 16 bit bitmap data in a NEF, only the 12 or 14 bit un-demosaicked raw data plus JPEG preview plus metadata, all neatly wrapped in a TIFF container.

NEF always needs to be converted, TIFF extraction cannot be done since there's nothing to extract.

Hugh_3170

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #265 on: May 04, 2018, 15:15:59 »
When at university in the late 60's and early 70's, as a physics major and then as a post graduate research student , we frequently had to use "obsolete" equipment due to funding issues and in some instances due to the fact that the exact equipment we needed simply didn't exist so we sometimes built new equipment or modified older so called obsolete equipment to achieve our ends.  Part of the training was to calibrate such equipment against known standards in order to to achieve and maximise the resultant accuracy of such equipment.

I think that the same philosophy also applies to our cameras and lenses in achieving desireable photographic outcomes.  There are many such examples of people on this site who have used "obsolete" cameras and lenses to this end:

* modification of non-Ai lenses and non-Nikon lenses, chipping of lenses, and adding new lens mounts via adapters or machining new mounts, e.g. the work of Erik, Bjørn /nfoto, and Dr Klaus Schmitt readily come to mind, and there are many many other examples here on this site

* converting DSLRs to see further into the UV, IR, or to have broadband spectral responses, e.g. see Thor Lidason's splendid IR images posted here recently and likewise those of Bob Friedman and many others here on this site

* modifying tripods, bellows, stands, electronics, and flashguns (often to do UV work)

* creation of panoramic heads, e.g. Seapy, or fittings for special purposes, e.g. Erik's fascinating special fittings made to allow a 6mm(?) fisheye lens to be more easily handled in the field.

* lastly the creation of colour profiles and the use of up to date RAW file processing can often drag more out of a raw file - for both obselete and current models of camera I must admit. 

Photographers and people working in any of the technical spaces are pretty good at adapting or repurposing their tools to new uses or to extend their useful lifes.  Nothing is entirely obsolete if placed in the right hands and with some imagination.  Go back a 100 years and the obsolete gear of today still looks pretty good to me.
Hugh Gunn

armando_m

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #266 on: May 04, 2018, 17:21:28 »
after many comments I'm getting more convinced that "obsolete" seems to have become a term abused by marketing
Armando Morales
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Kenneth Rich

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #267 on: May 04, 2018, 21:28:16 »
According to its detractors, the Df was obsolete on release, and so I am proudly still  using my Df obsolete  camera and its very obsolete AI lenses.

Bent Hjarbo

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #268 on: May 04, 2018, 22:10:34 »
According to its detractors, the Df was obsolete on release, and so I am proudly still  using my Df obsolete  camera and its very obsolete AI lenses.
+1 ;)

jd1566

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Re: Do you still use an "obsolete" camera?
« Reply #269 on: May 10, 2018, 23:01:09 »
After following the upgrade path in the film world, which culminated in the Canon Eos 3, I switched to digital, first with the Canon 10D, then 20D, then 5D, then after an unfortunate watercraft accident.. moved to the Nikon D700, then the D600, then the D810.. But the camera I secretly lusted after was the D3.  So when everything got cheap enough.. I got a D2H, then a D2Xx and now FINALLY a D3s.  Which is technically obsolete Bjorn, as parts for it are no longer available from Nikon. So once your shutter goes, the camera is basically dead.  Obsolete does not mean useless, and I'm enjoying this trio of cameras more than any others I've owned before (save the D700.. still miss it!).  At lower ISO's the D2's are simply fantastic.. and surprisingly the D2H is the better of the two. Apply a little sharpening, avoid printing more than A4 and you'll be fine.  It blows out faster than newer cameras, but 4mp.. I could shoot for months before filling up my cards.  However obsolecence for these cameras will come in another form.. media.  How long will makers of CF cards continue making them once newer cameras are all onto SD, CF fast and other tech.  Memory cards have a limited lifespan, measured in number of writes.. So eventually shutters will fail, and media will also fail.  That is the true death-knell of these older cameras.  Won't stop me using them of course..  Another untalked about advantage of these older cameras is that you're not so worried about losing or having them stolen, so you may push yourself more for example in street scenes. And if you want to do a 4k timelapse movie guess what.. the D2H is simply fantastic for that!  I'd upload some pics but my technical incompetence when it comes to Online Forums is tragic.