Color Casts for Some Commonly Remarked on Lenses

[Andrea B.]

Added to above -- Michael, you will need to think through how to handle white balance to make a proper comparison between one lens's uncorrected vs. corrected colour OR between two different lenses.

Should you make a new in-camera WB for each lens before shooting?
Or should you use a fixed Auto WB??
Or maybe just a Daylight WB setting??

Hmmmm....probably it is best to make a new in-camera WB for each lens because you want to get the very best from each lens prior to possible colour correction (profiling). Then look at its unprofiled vs. profiled colours.

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I used Photo Ninja in my example above. But I think there are other converters which can possible create profiles from the CC Passport. Lightroom maybe??

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Before someone leaps in here ---- sometimes we may not want to profile (colour correct) a lens. Sometimes we use certain lenses because of their colour cast or some other endearing quirk. But is it certainly useful to know, if possible, where the colour quirks are going to be methinks. 

[BW]

Very nice explanation Andrea. I have made color profiles for my most used light conditions, and lenses, in Lightroom. I use them sometimes, but most of the time, some corrections are necessary because of a slight change in the lighting. So, unless one have a extremely uniform light source, a in-camera WB setting is the preferred workflow, for me at least. And, Bjørn you are right. I assumed that Michael used only well corrected lenses with clinical rendering. I was wrong.

In my experience (which are somewhat limited, compared to many others here), at the end of the day there really is no neutral, when it comes to WB, color and hues, just approximations and qualified guesses.

[Andrea B.]

.....there really is no neutral, when it comes to WB, color and hues, just approximations and qualified guesses.

Definitely true! We haven't even taken into account such factors as monitors, ambient light in which an image is viewed, colour spaces and so forth. I'd say that the CC Passport thing is just a simple check to let us know the direction the colours are headed for a particular set-up.The reality is rather frighteningly complex. 

[Dr Klaus Schmitt]

What I was looking for are suggestions on how to go about comparing color from different lenses. Perhaps someone could comment on the thread, not on the title. I should have written "Color Cast for Some Commonly Remarked on Lenses." After all, this is NikonGear. We commonly look at all kinds of uncommon lenses.

Shoot each lens under same lighting conditions using the color checker passport, so that it fills the frame equally (i.e. change the distance between lenses to reflect their focal lengths), then either white balance using that, or even better create a color profile for each lens using that.

There will still be differences of course, but the main difference (different lens transmission in different wavelengths) is evened out.

[Michael Erlewine]

I understand how to make the DNG profile and restart Lightroom. Then go to Camera Calibration, select the profile of the particular lens/camera operation, and look at it. NOW, after that, what do you do with it. If it is just "tweak" it, well that is just more subjective stuff. Can someone explain what to do with the special profile?

[Bjørn Rørslett]

I would rather ask: why? The informal test shots (with the CC cards)  all show a very non-neutral light source being used. I would start by replacing the light source by something more suitable to the task at hand instead of trying to equalise later.

[Michael Erlewine]

I would rather ask: why? The informal test shots (with the CC cards)  all show a very non-neutral light source being used. I would start by replacing the light source by something more suitable to the task at hand instead of trying to equalise later.

I keep thinking there is something to accomplish here. What I end up understanding, is just keep doing what I have been doing and removing color cast, etc. as best I can. Nothing much to be gained from all of this, except to arrive back where I started, using my own taste. Does that make sense?

[Bjørn Rørslett]

Try using some quality studio flashes instead of LED lights. Then at least the emission spectra are continuous.

Adjust to taste? No problem. That is what everyone should do anyway.

[Michael Erlewine]

Try using some quality studio flashes instead of LED lights. Then at least the emission spectra are continuous.

Adjust to taste? No problem. That is what everyone should do anyway.

That's what I plan to do. I keep thinking that with a little testing, I will get to where people like you are, but I don't know what I am doing. I am better off just taking photos.

Thanks for the feedback and putting up with me. LOL.

[pluton]

I understand how to make the DNG profile and restart Lightroom. Then go to Camera Calibration, select the profile of the particular lens/camera operation, and look at it. NOW, after that, what do you do with it. If it is just "tweak" it, well that is just more subjective stuff. Can someone explain what to do with the special profile?

In my very limited (2 camera bodies) experience with the DNG profile system, what I have found is that the Color Checker-generated profile does not provide 'perfect color' upon it's application to the file, but gets me closer... as a starting point for further adjustment.
Some more random thoughts:
The best way to see the color rendering differences between lenses is to look directly through them, by eye, at a sheet of white paper that is illuminated by neutral daylight. There, I have marveled at the distinct greeenish-yellow of many older, pre multi-coated lenses, the neutral to very slight green-blue color of most modern Nikon and Canon lenses, the pale lemon-yellow look of Leica M lenses, and the warm, orangey color from the Zeiss lenses.
Does this eye-looking have much to do with how the shots will look after digital post production?  No....especially now, with wide-range correction available in digital post. 
All of the differences that you can see by eye are reduced and/or modified by every stage in the post production processing of the photo:  Raw converter, color and density adjustments, jpeg compression(if applicable), assigned [smaller] color spaces, and the final viewing medium:  cheap laptop TN display, or luxurious color-calibrated ARGB monitor, or...printed on paper with a neutral white base, or a warm-toned base, using Canon ink or Epson ink, etc, etc.
Light sources:  A comparison of color rendering of the lenses done under one specific light source applies to that light source, but maybe not to another light source.  Especially in the case of LEDs and fluorescents tubes. LEDs and Flo tubes change over time, almost always toward the green.
This company, http://www.cineolighting.com, claims to have ameliorated some of the color issues with LEDs with what they call "Remote Phosphor" design.
 I have used their units in television production, and they are heavy but well made.  Did we conduct complicated, exacting tests of their light quality? No.  We did like we always do:  we look at the shot in a known, high-quality monitor, adjust the color response of the camera if necessary, and if it looks nice, we shoot it.

[Frank Fremerey]

I would rather ask: why? The informal test shots (with the CC cards)  all show a very non-neutral light source being used. I would start by replacing the light source by something more suitable to the task at hand instead of trying to equalise later.

Noone asked Michal yet wich kind of light it is and which kind of white balance he used for the shots.

[Michael Erlewine]

Noone asked Michal yet wich kind of light it is and which kind of white balance he used for the shots.

Actually, I posted the light in original post, good LED lights. And I used standard auto WB.

[Frank Fremerey]

For my  food shots I use lots of converter bulbs from Osram. 1.000 Watts Converter Bulbs of that kind
equal 10.000 Watts of classical incadescent light. The color fidelity is extremly high.

The series is called D65 iirc and is measured for RAL Farbscala as reference light RA98 meaning you get a 98%
color fidelity. If I take pictures with rather color neutral lenses like the 1.8/85G or the 2.8/60G or my large format
glass the change in calibration is hardly visible.

I do not think LED can do anything like what a 5 band or 6 band Fluerescent full spectrum source can do for you.

cheers

Frank

PS: yes. Professional studio flash can do the same for you after years of training and hour of setup

[Michael Erlewine]

I always use natural light, but here I used a constant LED. Not taking portrait shots, etc.

[Bjørn Rørslett]

Noone asked Michal yet wich kind of light it is and which kind of white balance he used for the shots.

He stated that initially. And LED lights are unsuited to doing a lens/lens colour rendition analysis because they don't have a continuous output spectrum.