Author Topic: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations  (Read 22198 times)

arthurking83

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 240
  • Good to be back on NikonGear
Re: Pentax / Ricoh K-1 36MPx with 135 Format sized sensor: Lens Adaptations
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2016, 06:36:59 »
.....

The point of all this trouble is to gain a 42MP image, arrived at by pixel-shift that should be clearer, better colors, and larger than what I can now get with the Nikon D810. ....


I believe that you've misunderstood Pentax's pixel shift feature here Michael!
You won't get more resolution in terms of number of pixels.
You only get more resolution for the given number of pixels with Pentax's pixel shift technology.
They only shift the sensor 4 times so that each pixel site records all 3(or 4) pixel colours(remembering that 2 of those colours are both green .. so really 3 colours).
This only negates the need to interpolate each pixel with each of the three colours.
Basically, you won't see jaggies where you may see them in a non pixel shifted capture.
So you won't have any more than 36Mp with each capture! ..

Olympus have a super res sensor shift feature that does this .. but that's not how the Pentax system works(as far as the current specs state).

BUT! there's nothing to stop Pentax from updating the current pixel shift feature to allow a super hi res mode in the future with a firmware update.
That's a big IF to bet on tho!!

So if you want 'more resolution' in terms of number of pixels .. then you'd want or need either an Olympus with such a feature(eg. their new Pen F) .. gives you roughly 50Mp with the 8 pixel shift feature.
Or you want a Canon 5Dsr(r as in no AA filter) .. or a Pentax 645z or whatever other higher pixel count camera.

But I don't think you'll be getting what you think you're getting with the K-1 .. and that's more megapixels to work with.

I've taken the liberty to link to DPR's studio webpage so you can gain some insight as to what a pixel shifted image may actually give you.
Hopefully it works as I wanted to link it:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/image-comparison?attr18=daylight&attr13_0=pentax_k3ii&attr13_1=pentax_k3ii&attr13_2=canon_eos5dsr&attr13_3=olympus_penf&attr15_0=raw&attr15_1=raw&attr15_2=raw&attr15_3=raw&attr16_0=100&attr16_1=100&attr16_2=100&attr16_3=200&attr126_0=normal&attr126_1=highres&attr126_3=highres&attr171_3=off&normalization=full&widget=1&x=-0.6246794871794872&y=-0.6246600344864363

Basically what you should see is that in the comparison windows you have two K3-II samples one with Pixel Shift off and the other on.
You can see that on the diagonal lines area, the pixel shifted Pentax K3-II image displays no jaggies(steps on diagonal lines) .. the non Pixel Shifted image does tho.
Then you see a Canon 5Dsr image below to show how this relates to a 50Mp image too .. if you look closely you can just make out jaggies .. and if you scan the rest of the studio scene, you can also see some moire as well. The Olympus certainly displays the 'most resolution' both in terms of actual pixel count and acuity as well. note the star wheels in the scene too.
Both 5Dsr and K3-II(standard) show some moire towards the centre of the star wheel, K3-II less so(could be considered nil) .. but the Olympus Pen-F is basically as good as you get before heading into medium format territory.

Also note that if a regular 14bit NEF file is going to be roughly 75-90Mb in size, then you'd assume similar from Pentax either as a PEF or DNG .. then 4 x that will yield at least a 300-400Mb single raw file using pixel shift on the K-1.
Something else to think about too.

Hope that helps.
Arthur

Bjørn Rørslett

  • Fierce Bear of the North
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 8252
  • Oslo, Norway
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2016, 09:06:24 »
The doctored file is said to be 42 MPix. Even though 4 frames are taken, only 1 (with massaged data) is output.

Tristin

  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1083
  • Nothing less, always more.
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2016, 10:02:41 »
The images I posted links to displaying the K-1's pixel shift capability clearly shows that it does not just reduce jaggies, it provides a considerably higher level of fine detail.  The number of pixels are the same, but the level of detail captured is not at all the same.  It does not appear to be as modest an increase as 42mp. 

It is obviously limited in use to static scenarios, but I would rather have a 36mp sensor that can provide a detail boost in static scenarios while providing lower noise in most general scenarios.  The non-studio images from the 5Dr, for example, do  not impress me as much as the K-1's.
-Tristin

Bjørn Rørslett

  • Fierce Bear of the North
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 8252
  • Oslo, Norway
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2016, 10:18:52 »
It is colour fidelity that is claimed to be increased, not resolution per se. After all the sensor is just shifted a single pixel in either direction ....

Michael Erlewine

  • Close-Up Photographer
  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 2049
  • Close-Up with APO
    • Spirit Grooves
The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2016, 11:21:25 »

Also note that if a regular 14bit NEF file is going to be roughly 75-90Mb in size, then you'd assume similar from Pentax either as a PEF or DNG .. then 4 x that will yield at least a 300-400Mb single raw file using pixel shift on the K-1.
Something else to think about too.

Hope that helps.

Arthur: Can you say a little more about this storage issue and how these four are combined.

Thanks Arthur, Tristin, and Bjørn for clearing this up. Obviously, I am going from what I read (and imagined), not from actual experience.

I can live with 36 MPx, provided the color improves. In my lens journey, it is color correction that has driven me, so less “jaggies,” etc. and the resulting better definition is what I am after, but color fidelity is what I most appreciate.

And, I am prepared to send stuff back or sell it off. For me, this is a reach beyond what Nikon is offering, until the Nikon boat comes along, if it does. So, side-stepping the need to interpolate is worth it in itself.

Looking at the chart on the DPR link (which is very helpful), the result of the pixel-shift Pentax K3II is what I am seeing there, but I will be working toward receiving the Pentax K1 36 MPx camera.

I am not about to jump into the latest Hasselblad system, but only (at this point) seeking to extend what I don’t have in the Nikon D810, which I am generally very happy with, especially the ISO 64. In fact, I have always been interested in advances in true basic ISO, not in higher and higher ISO. I shoot stills, on tripod, and value BLACKS above high ISO.

Obviously, there is a lot I have to learn here, which is why I am getting a Pentax K3II, to get started.
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com, Daily Blog at https://www.facebook.com/MichaelErlewine. main site: SpiritGrooves.net, https://www.youtube.com/user/merlewine, Founder: MacroStop.com, All-Music Guide, All-Movie Guide, Classic Posters.com, Matrix Software, DharmaGrooves.com

Erik Lund

  • Global Moderator
  • **
  • Posts: 6488
  • Copenhagen
    • ErikLund.com
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2016, 11:29:17 »
A little pointless to split the thread and then continue to talk camera in the new lens thread  :o  ::)  :D
Erik Lund

Michael Erlewine

  • Close-Up Photographer
  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 2049
  • Close-Up with APO
    • Spirit Grooves
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2016, 11:37:38 »
A little pointless to split the thread and then continue to talk camera in the new lens thread  :o  ::)  :D

Let's change the title, but these are the things I need to talk about, to get things clear and some camera stuff straightened out. Call it what you want, but lets us talk as we will. I am not trying to change the topic, but rather to collect various details and understand how to take advantage of this new camera AND the older lenses. The camera and lenses go together. I was happy with the first thread, but some were not.

I don't care what you call it, but it would help to let us just work through our process here. Thanks. The title says it "Camera and Lens Adaptations." Both are important IMO.
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com, Daily Blog at https://www.facebook.com/MichaelErlewine. main site: SpiritGrooves.net, https://www.youtube.com/user/merlewine, Founder: MacroStop.com, All-Music Guide, All-Movie Guide, Classic Posters.com, Matrix Software, DharmaGrooves.com

Erik Lund

  • Global Moderator
  • **
  • Posts: 6488
  • Copenhagen
    • ErikLund.com
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2016, 11:51:26 »
I don't care what you call it, but it would help to let us just work through our process here. ...

OK, I will let you work without interfering further.
Erik Lund

richardHaw

  • Cute Panda from the East...
  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 3145
  • Your lens loverboy
    • Classic Nikkor Maintenance and DIY
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2016, 12:06:34 »
http://richardhaw.com/2016/02/26/cp-2016-pt-1/

the K-1 at today's CP+  :o :o :o
just some commentaries...

Michael Erlewine

  • Close-Up Photographer
  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 2049
  • Close-Up with APO
    • Spirit Grooves
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2016, 12:11:20 »
OK, I will let you work without interfering further.


I don't consider it interfering, but there has to be a place where we can discuss both the camera and the problems involved in trying to interface another lens mount. I originally joined the first thread to be polite, but I had specific questions, and also extending myself in gathering all this equipment, etc. I should have just started my own thread, etc.

It won't happen again. I was trying to consolidate the Pentax discussion, but now see that my concerns are more specialized. So we will be discussing the Camera and other lens mounts... and whatever else interests us about this camera.
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com, Daily Blog at https://www.facebook.com/MichaelErlewine. main site: SpiritGrooves.net, https://www.youtube.com/user/merlewine, Founder: MacroStop.com, All-Music Guide, All-Movie Guide, Classic Posters.com, Matrix Software, DharmaGrooves.com

BruceSD

  • Confirmed Bokeholic
  • NG Member
  • *
  • Posts: 231
  • I'm here to learn from the best
    • The F/2 Guru
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2016, 18:35:45 »
Michael, I have a  Voigtlander Ultron 40mm in the Pentax K mount that I was about to list for sale on the Internet.  Are you still looking for this lens?


Dave in Wisconsin

Michael Erlewine

  • Close-Up Photographer
  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 2049
  • Close-Up with APO
    • Spirit Grooves
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #41 on: February 29, 2016, 22:13:30 »
I have an update on the Pentax-1 and related Pentax cameras. I have put off reporting this until Lloyd Chambers posted his blog, because some of my information came from his research and diligence. In preparation for the release of the new Pentax K1, both Chambers and I picked up the previous camera, the Pentax K3II, so we could be familiar with the menus and the way the camera worked.

I tested out the Pentax K3II on various lenses, both in native Pentax mount and using the Fotodix Nikon-lenses-to-Pentax-K-camera adaptor. The adapter has piece of glass that allows you to get infinity focus, but the glass is not good enough, so that the lens you are trying to mount is degraded to the point of being unusable for my purposes.

I tried to remove the glass as per instructions, but it never worked, so I had to literally punch it out. I found that the adapter works for lenses like the Noct Nikkor and the El Nikkor 105mm APO lenses, but would not properly focus using the CV-125 or the various Otus lenses.

I did try the Pentax K3ii on various bellows units, which allowed me to use any bellows-type lens, so that works.

However, I soon ran into trouble implementing the pixel-shift feature, which is when I turned to Lloyd Chambers for advice. I read some of Chamber’s columns, which have saved me a ton of money, and this Pentax thing is a good example. I did not know how to properly test the EFC (Electronic Front Curtain) to see if it functioned properly, but Chambers did. To our mutual disappointment, it was not implemented properly and this is true not only for the older Pentax K3II, but also for the forthcoming Pentax K1 (and other Pentax cameras), which is a big disappointment. 

Since I often stack many layers, I depend on reducing shutter-shake, mirror shake, and so on as much as possible. I ran into this with my Sony A7r, which I eventually returned for a refund. I understand they have fixed it now.

I like the Pentax K3II. It is and feels like a real camera. However, at the deep-down nitty-gritty that I depend on, there is a bit of chaos holding forth and things are not well thought out. For one, it is very difficult to use LiveView without the camera banging down mirror when the shutter is released. And they demand you use the self-timer, which only offers the choice of 2 seconds or 12 seconds, and nothing in between.  Two seconds is not always enough to allow vibrations to die down, etc.

There are many things I did not like, such as you can set the self-time option, but when you turn the camera off, it unsets, so you have to re-set it every time you turn it on, unless you build a custom profile. I will not go into all the annoying idiosyncrasies, but a lot for me had to do with not being able to adjust shutter or aperture and see the effects, but having to wait to look at a finished photo, etc.

However, the reason for buying this camera was solely the benefit of the pixel-shift, which is such a slight movement that anything but EFC would degrade it for stacked work, or could. That did it for me.

I have returned my K3II, cancelled my order for the K1, and still have a few things left. One thing I found was a rare CV-90mm SL close-up lens in Pentax mount, which not many are available. I will sell that when the K1 comes out, because it is a great lens.

So, that’s the story. I thank Lloyd Chambers for his help and for his instructive columns. I needed them.

It may be possible that Pentax could fix this in firmware, but since earlier cameras were never modified, I am not hopeful. I am back to hoping that Nikon will bring out a 50 MPx camera soon.
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com, Daily Blog at https://www.facebook.com/MichaelErlewine. main site: SpiritGrooves.net, https://www.youtube.com/user/merlewine, Founder: MacroStop.com, All-Music Guide, All-Movie Guide, Classic Posters.com, Matrix Software, DharmaGrooves.com

Bjørn Rørslett

  • Fierce Bear of the North
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 8252
  • Oslo, Norway
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #42 on: February 29, 2016, 22:23:26 »
The ancient story of 'grass is greener on the other side' repeats itself. Thanks for the heads-up.

Michael Erlewine

  • Close-Up Photographer
  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 2049
  • Close-Up with APO
    • Spirit Grooves
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #43 on: February 29, 2016, 22:54:51 »
The ancient story of 'grass is greener on the other side' repeats itself. Thanks for the heads-up.

What interested me was the interest in color and the fact the the subtle pixel-shift would perhaps offer more pure color and better micro-contrast, and larger photosites (or whatever the term is). I am not looking to switch brands.

My experience within the Nikon camp is greater than my interest just in technology, for the most part. I just wish Nikon would catch up a bit. If Nikon keeps dragging their heels, I will buy a second D810 and not worry about the future. Or, if Nikon comes out with a camera, but abandons the ISO 64, which is wonderful, I will not go there.
MichaelErlewine.smugmug.com, Daily Blog at https://www.facebook.com/MichaelErlewine. main site: SpiritGrooves.net, https://www.youtube.com/user/merlewine, Founder: MacroStop.com, All-Music Guide, All-Movie Guide, Classic Posters.com, Matrix Software, DharmaGrooves.com

Hugh_3170

  • NG Supporter
  • **
  • Posts: 2012
  • Back in Melbourne!
Re: The Pentax K1 36 MP Camera and Lens Adaptations
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2016, 12:33:09 »
Michael, this has been a sad outcome for you.  I guess that it is still better to do your homework up front, as you have,  and to find out the bad news early.
Hugh Gunn