Author Topic: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR  (Read 26496 times)

Ilkka Nissilä

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Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« on: October 24, 2015, 20:41:58 »
There isn't much discussion the new VR E version of the 24-70/2.8 here so I figured I'd start a topic.

Perhaps my main practical issue with the G version is that there is considerable field curvature at 24mm, which I would often try to use for large group shots, with the result that many of the people close to the edges of the frame at the sides of the long axis were out of focus at apertures such as f/4 or f/5.6. This was a serious issue for me as it didn't require a big print to show the problem, and I eventually resorted to using either the Zeiss 28/2 or the Nikon 24/1.4 for these shots. Especially the 24/1.4 yielded stunningly sharp results at every point in the frame, at f/4. Of course if there is a lot of light (provided or existing) then f/9 or some such aperture could be used but I would often need to balance the flash light with indoor ambient light and so I needed usable results at wider apertures. With two rows f/4 can be acceptable on a shot of 20-30 people, if the field curvature is absent.

Ok, so one of the first things I tested with the 24-70/2.8E VR was how does it behave in this type of a context. I did a hand-held series of shots at 24mm focal length at apertures from f/2.8 to f/11 and found that to me quite good looking result was already obtained at f/4. Here it is (if you download the "original" it is 3000 pix wide. Cropping has only been applied to the top and bottom, not the right or left side of the image):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/ilkka_nissila/22252717550/in/dateposted-public/

I will try to find time to make a comparison shot with the older 24-70/2.8G as well, to illustrate the nature and magnitude of the problem. Also I may bring a tripod to get a better chance of perfect alignment but in this case I was able to align acceptably using my eyes only.

I find the new lens to autofocus faster than the old. I didn't notice a need to AF fine tune the lens with my D810 but I will investigate this in detail later on and see if the optimal adjustment is focal length dependent as it is on my G version of the lens and the same camera body (in practice I've settled on a compromise value across the range of focal lengths).

The VR function seems to work as expected, but you have to calibrate to my cynical expectations of VR technology. ;-) I took a set of shots of a large restaurant menu board at 1/13s and 1/30s and some of the shots at 1/13s were sharp and some were blurred. At 1/30s the shots were sharper than at 1/13s. In another context there was a group of police officers in full riot gear (due to a demonstration that had just ended) and I took some shots of them at 1/50s with VR on. Only one of the three shots was in focus (the gear had autofocused on the building behind the officers in two shots and on the face of the officer that I was trying to focus on in one of the three shots). One of the shots was, however, sharp and the VR had worked on that. From another angle I did two shots but one of them had a double image, the other was sharp. I think taking 2-3 shots at a minimum is a good plan when working with slowish speeds and trusting VR to help reduce the shake. I find this mildly annoying and would normally prefer to set the shutter speed at 1/200s at least in such situations, but in this case I was just getting a feel for what the VR could do. I think it can be helpful in situations where hand holding is required and the subject doesn't move too much but I would recommend getting a few frames just in case, to get a good chance of a successful result. I apologize if I appear overly cynical about it, but to me reproducibility is important and as I pay great deal of attention to the emotion of the subject being photographed, I don't want to have to risk the facial expression changing while I'm doing a series to get a good chance of a sharp image. At 1/200s or better yet, 1/500s there is a much better consistency to the images, but of course then the ISO or depth of field must be sacrificed in some cases. Anyway: verdict is that VR seems to work as expected and can get shots that one wouldn't get otherwise but the caveat is that it doesn't guarantee every shot is sharp.

With regards to the overall feel to the images, I find so far that the 24mm end is excellent, and the images look vividly saturated and contrasty with minimal tendency to flare (for such a complex lens). Sharpness and CA are well controlled. I think the 70mm end also looks reasonably sharp but it didn't make quite such a positive impression of a high consistency of high level of sharpness as the wide end. It looks good but not quite as stunningly good as I might have hoped. I hope to have time to do a side by side comparison at 70mm as well. I do quite a lot of shooting with the 24-70 in the studio with the lens set at 70mm so at least stopped down the sharpness is important to me.

With regards to the handling, the new lens is quite a bit larger in length and somewhat wider in thickness than the old lens; the difference in length is quite noticeable. I find the zoom and focus rings, as well as the locking mechanism of the hood to be more affirmative and tighter than with the G version. I think the new lens is likely to be a bit more mechanically sturdy than the old one but of course without opening the lens up or gathering a lot of service statistics over several years I wouldn't be able to say something definite other than my personal impression and hope.

My very early overall impression is that the wide angle performance is excellent but I need much more material of the long end to give it due credit (or not). The VR seems to work more or less and the autofocus is very fast but can sometimes catch onto something in the background that I didn't intend (likely this is not a lens problem but can be a user problem ;-) After all it is normal that the autofocus sensor positions cover a larger area than indicated in the viewfinder and this can lead to problems with wide angle focal lengths when trying to focus on a face with building lines in the background).

It is just my subjective view that the lens is probably not quite worth the purchase cost to many people - it is very expensive and the old lens is overall still a very good performer (with its own quirks). If you need top 24mm performance then for sure the new lens is better but at 70mm the images didn't cause a "wow that's impressive" reaction at least not yet. I would like to see Nikon present a 24-70mm f/4 as an alternative with lower cost, smaller size and lower weight than the f/2.8E VR unless they plan to keep the 24-70/2.8G in the lineup, which is probably the easiest way they can offer a more affordable lens to those who need a high quality wide to telephoto zoom. (I am not that impressed by the 24-120/4).

This is just a conversation opening and initial impressions (do not take it as a review), I would like to hear other people's impressions of the new lens as well, if you get the opportunity to try it out or purchase it. I think it will take at least a year before the full performance characteristics are understood.

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2015, 20:51:07 »
Thanks for your initial impressions, Ilkka. The new version of the 24-70 obviously is in short supply and so far I haven't been able to get a review sample from Nikon Nordic (well, as I've been travelling a lot the last two months, perhaps better to wait anyway in order to do a decent review).

Do keep us abreast with any new observations.

Akira

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2015, 22:06:00 »
For what is worth, here is an interview to the designer of the 24-70E VR in English:

http://www.nikkor.com/philosophy/03.html
"The eye is blind if the mind is absent." - Confucius

"Limitation is inspiration." - Akira

Akira

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2015, 22:28:59 »
And here is another lengthy interview posted on Impress-Watch:

http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20151022_725581.html

The texts are all Japanese, but here are some interesting points not mentioned in the interview on nikkor.com:

1.  When they designed G (when FX sensor was 12MP), they didn't expect that the pixel density would whip up to 36MP.

2.  When they design lenses, they are always trying to strike the best balance between the contrast and the resolution, not just the resolution.

3.  Traditionally they don't do sample checks but inspect ALL lenses by MTF before shipping.

4.  When they designed E, they tried to incorporate VR, better the optical performance and make it sturdier than G, especially the moving part carrying the front lens group.

5.  E is manufactured at Tochigi Nikon.

6.  The "concave lens preceding" type zoom lens is more difficult to design than "convex preceding type", especially with VR.  But they found the convex preceding type didn't perform well at the longest end.  Also, the concave preceeding type is less affected by the decentering due to the manufacturing margin of error and mechanical wear through usage of extended period of time.

7.  The biggest problem of concave lens first type was the image quality is affected both at the widest and longest ends.  But the designer found a good solution inspired by the design of their own AF-S 70-200/4.0 VR lens.

8.  For this particular lens, they basically recommend to always switch VR on, even on the tripod except for the long exposure.

9.  They made the hood release push button flush with the hood, so that the button is not pushed accidentally.

10.  The lens barrel of E is more shock-resistant than that of G, and they designed E so that it would be even more shock-resistant with the hood attached.

11.  In addition to the nano crystal coating, they improved other coatings to reduce the flare and the ghost.

Hope you enjoy them.
"The eye is blind if the mind is absent." - Confucius

"Limitation is inspiration." - Akira

Jakov Minić

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2015, 23:30:46 »
Lenses are sometimes so good, that you wonder why they are updated.
I used the 24-70G for an extensive period of 2 years. It is an amazing lens.
The upgrade that occurred brought up the weight, size and price. Where is this world heading... :)


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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2015, 00:17:29 »
I made a few shots at 70mm, at f/2.8 and f/4, at 0.5m and 2.5m with both lenses. I can't say there is anything to criticise in the new lens compared to the old, with regards to the 70mm sharpness in these shots; the two lenses were very close.  It is possible the old lens is slightly sharper at f/4, 0.5m and the new lens slightly sharper at f/2.8, 2.5m, but I would have to repeat the experiment a few times with more attention to detail and do it in different conditions to be sure.

I will next look into autofocus fine tuning.

I can believe what Akira's translation says about coatings; the colours, contrast and flare resistance of the new lens are very impressive.  And I believe the impact resistance may well be improved, the feel of the rings is more firm and the size of the new lens is easier to accept if I am told the new lens is more rugged and durable.

I have more faith in my tripods than any VR system. But I suppose for curiosity's sake I can look into seeing what turning it on will do to tripod based images.

enough

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2015, 07:19:17 »
Ilkka, thanks for the initial observations.  I have had mine on order for a while and despite them starting to appear in Australia over the last week, my dealer is saying an early December delivery.  I destroyed my existing 24-70G in August, so I was wavering about just replacing the G or going for the new version - in the end, I managed to get a great price on the new one, so am going for that (at the price of the wait!).  Great to see you observations in the mean time and I look forward to you fleshing them out.
Mark Doro

Jørgen Ramskov

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2015, 16:46:37 »
Thanks for your non review, much appreciated.
Jørgen Ramskov

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2015, 17:20:17 »
I just spoke to one of my Nikon contacts today and asked specifically for news on the 24-70 VR. According to him deliveries to Norway had just commenced and there was a huge backlog of orders for it. Mass delivery is still weeks ahead. He will provide a review lens once they got a few samples for testing.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2015, 20:02:03 »
Testing VR in hand-held night architecture shots. This is 1/30s, ISO 800, f/4, at 60mm. I got a good result at 1/13s as well but the composition was not quite right. I think it's quite hard to get alignment right when hand-holding such shots and I would prefer to do them using a tripod, the virtual horizon and ISO 64, but this lens does a good job hand held if it is needed. I imagine for travel photography it is great. I'll try to redo this shot in twilight.

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2015, 20:33:10 »
Still waiting for Nikon Nordic to come through with a review sample, but at last I  had a shooting session with the new 24-70 E today. I can support much of the findings Ilkka already has reported. I only had my last remaining healthy Df available to me for this encounter. This combination is of course not ideal in terms of handling because the lens is quite long and will be more at home on a heavy "pro DSLR" class body. However, after a few minutes it felt quite comfortable to use. AF speed is extremely fast and held the target in focus immediately. The tricky light conditions on my venue were taken care of with easy. Flare and ghosting apparently  are kept under strict control and whatever chromatic issues I could detect really were insignificant. The VR functioned flawlessly and very silently as well and you hardly noticed it springing into action.

The session did not allow genuine testing of resolution, so that aspect has to be postponed until I get my hands on a review lens. Results did look good
though, but for say architecture work one likely would want a correction of the barrel (wide) and pincushion distortion seen at the short and long ends of the focal range, respectively. Apparently even less sophisticated tools may manage the correction well enough.

Erik Lund

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2015, 07:56:55 »
The lens is really nice to handle I agree that its a perfect fit for a D4 or similar.

The lens hood has a very nice positive locking mechanism, it will not loosen by accident at all, there is a ridge around the release tap - Really nice!

The hole in the lens hood barely fits over the lens cap...

I like the lens a lot!
Erik Lund

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2015, 23:23:00 »
Opening of the Christmas Street in Helsinki on Sunday.  The event starts with a warmup and a small circus group who perform at the steps of the Helsinki Cathedral. Then there is choir music with children of various ages and adults as well performing together at the steps. After the musical performances there were some short speeches and finally the Aleksanterinkatu street Christmas lights were turned on and the procession started. A lot of people were watching even though the weather was quite chilly.

It was quite dark, f/2.8, 1/200s, ISO 6400, D810. 24-70E, 44mm focal length. This was slightly underexposed and I lifted it up in post and used Dfine 2 (of the Nik collection) to clean it up. It really is near the limits of the camera; if I turned on vignetting reduction  the corners would go blue with nasty noise.

I wasn't able to use the 24-70 through most of the procession because there was so little light, so I used an f/1.4 lens instead. However, focusing on moving subjects in such dim conditions is very difficult. I started to think about adding light from tungsten balanced speedlight to make it possible to get better results from this event (with flash on the foreground it would have been possible to get away with an f/2.8 lens throughout, but of course the mood would have changed a bit). I seem to struggle with these events in the Helsinki winter months even though it's not my first time.

Anyway the AF of the 24-70 excelled even though the light was dim.


Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2015, 23:28:36 »
I should add that the picture was made on the second half of the parade route which is on Pohjois-Esplanadi, not Aleksanterinkatu.

Erik Lund

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Re: Nikon 24-70/2.8E VR
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2015, 08:59:41 »
Very nicely captured!
Erik Lund