Color filters usage for digital capture

[MEPER]

It seems color filters that are used for BW film can still accommodate some decent prices.
My thought was that they would became almost obsolete in the digital world and that prices would drop a lot.
Of course some still use BW films but does people also use color filters when using a standard digital camera when they want the final result to be monochrome?
The color filter effect can be applied in post processing in a much more controlled way than using a real filter can a real color filter still have an advantage?

I guess the pure monochrome sensor cameras still needs color filters to enhance contrast etc.?
But those cameras are quite rare to my knowledge.

[Akira]

I experimented with a yellow filter to see if it can enhance some contrast of the images shot by a Bayer sensor camera.  The image looked noticeably jaggy possibly due to the loss of the info of the blue channel.  I didn't test denser filters like orange or red ones, but a red filter could cause the loss of the data of both the blue and green channels.

FOVEON sensor has the same amount of pixels in all three color channels, so it could offer effect similar to the green or red filters if you extract the data of the green of red channel.

The yellow, orange and red filters don't only enhance the contrast but also remove haze in the distance when used for landscapes.  The red filter has the strongest effect.  The details of the distant part of the image won't be recovered by the equivalent digital filters in the processing software.

[MEPER]

Ok!
It seems that color filters makes no sense used with digital cameras unless it is born as "monochrome"?
If I go into monochrome mode it will be a post processing "in-camera" anyway.
RAW is RAW. I can't eliminate the Bayer filter in my camera (from menu) and get a monochrome RAW file out I guess. Only then the color filters will make sense?

Regarding FOVEON it was a "nice try" but it seems the developing stopped?
Can you get a modern 2024 FOVEON hi-res sensor?

[Akira]

According to Mr. Yamaki, CEO of SIGMA, it still continues to develop FOVEON sensor.  However, he also says that some essential problems are yet to be solved.

I'm not sure if the new full-size FOVEON sensor will see the world.

By the way, I've also found that even the Bayer sensor with the RBG color filters starts to act like a monochrome one in the range around 850nm and longer.  I confirmed that on the unmodified Nikon D40 and SIGMA fp.  That's why I prefer IR monochrome image using a dense filter like IR850 or IR90 over the fals-color IR.

[MEPER]

I think the FOVEON sensor made very nice images at native ISO but ISO performance was quite poor.
I think the follow-up development is too slow.
I also think that Nikon should go into sensor development so they had their own brand of sensors and not just using Sony sensors as Sony is also a competitor.
But if Nikon is not able to make better sensors than Sony it will no be good for the economy.
I remember that my D5200 has a Toshiba sensor so not only Sony makes them for Nikon. I don't know either if Nikon officially has announced that they use Sony sensors in their cameras?

Maybe this is still true (LBCAST sensor)?
https://www.nikonimgsupport.com/na/NSG_article?articleNo=000044710&configured=1&lang=en_SG
In audio the Toshiba JFETs are still the most silent to use for preamps etc. :-)

[jborg]

Toshiba Semiconductor image sensors division was sold to Sony in 2015...

[Akira]

I'd rather suspect that SIGMA is looking for a timing to announce the abortion of the development of FOVEON sensor.   

The image making world is heading for the global shutter sensor or the sensor whose read out speed is fast enough to eliminate the mechanical shutter.

[MEPER]

Then Canon probably also use Sony sensors?
I wonder if the department of Sony that makes the sensors is independent from the Sony department which makes the cameras so competition can be "equal".

[Akira]

Then Canon probably also use Sony sensors?
I wonder if the department of Sony that makes the sensors is independent from the Sony department which makes the cameras so competition can be "equal".

I believe that Canon makes their sensors on their own.  The processing technology of Sony is more advanced than Canon.  That's why it was not until recent years that Canon started to use BSI sensor, and that still only on their flagship model R3.  The same should go with Panasonic.

[Bruno Schroder]

Then Canon probably also use Sony sensors?
I wonder if the department of Sony that makes the sensors is independent from the Sony department which makes the cameras so competition can be "equal".

Yes, they are distinct operations and closely separated. Contracts should also be very strict on confidentiality of information.

[MFloyd]

…
I also think that Nikon should go into sensor development so they had their own brand of sensors and not just using Sony sensors as Sony is also a competitor.
But if Nikon is not able to make better sensors than Sony it will no be good for the economy.
I remember that my D5200 has a Toshiba sensor so not only Sony makes them for Nikon.

You have to understand what “making” stands for. As far as my understanding is correct, Nikon designs its own sensors. Canon (and some others) are “baking” them. What is not so well known is the part of know how is attributable to the chip producer.

[MEPER]

Ok, my understanding was that Nikon used "on the shelf" Sony image sensors. Meaning that fist we will see a Sony body with a specific sensor and after some time (years :-)) we see the same sensor in a Nikon camera.
E.g. now Sony has a 61 MP in their top FF body (as far as I remember) but so far Nikon has 45 MP as max. resolution. It is good if Nikon can design their own image sensors and have a chip factory making them (e.g. Sony). Nikon it probably too small a company to have its own factory. They are quite expensive. There are not many in Europe. I have been into a couple. One in France (ST Microsystems). Another one was NXP Semiconductors which originates from Philips. Sony and Canon are much larger companies. Could be interesting to know more about the Canon factory if they are specialized in image sensors only or they also do other kinds of semiconductors. If Sony took over Toshiba then Sony also makes e.g. transistors. I have used some SMD's (2SK209) which is a very low noise Toshiba JFET. They are still manufactured under the Toshiba brand.   

[Snoogly]

The latest word on Foveon …

https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/6004010220/sigma-full-frame-foveon

[MEPER]

Interesting!
Still alive.
It was the noise I did not like about the Foveon (know a person that have those FOVEON Sigmas).
Pictures looked nice as he says but quite bad at higher ISO.
Cross-talk between colors is a benefit to get finer transitions?
More "analog"?
The problem is that the development is so slow so if they come out with a new one this will be the one for the next 10 years......probably......or longer.
The cameras are also very slow. But still some people that like the images better than anything else (like some better like the images from D1, D2X etc.)    <-- "fat pixels"?