Author Topic: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)  (Read 1549 times)

chambeshi

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2021, 16:37:19 »
One gap in telephoto coverage is a 400-800 Super-Telephoto Zoom. Many Pros and enthusiasts will find the combination of reach and flexibility to be invaluable in sports and wildlife. A 800 f6.3 needs a 127mm window, so a 400-800 f4/6.3 could feasibly keep down cost and weight: ideally an internal zoom and above all S-Line.

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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2021, 10:41:07 »
One gap in telephoto coverage is a 400-800 Super-Telephoto Zoom. Many Pros and enthusiasts will find the combination of reach and flexibility to be invaluable in sports and wildlife. A 800 f6.3 needs a 127mm window, so a 400-800 f4/6.3 could feasibly keep down cost and weight: ideally an internal zoom and above all S-Line.

Long zooms like that have been made in the past (Sigma 300-800/5.6, Nikon 360-1200/11) but they are large and not that easy to transport to the location. I can understand the appeal of having such focal lengths available in a zoom, for example, when photographing various birds in Suomenoja in Espoo one can often use a variety of focal lengths and to get the best light on the birds when placing the camera on an easily accessible shore position, 800mm is often a good bet, but occasionally the birds come much closer.

However, I suspect a long zoom that goes to 800 mm with a reasonable aperture (such as f/6.3) would weight 5-6 kg and it would be very difficult to find large numbers of people who are willing to work in that range of portability. I think Nikon's plan of an 800mm prime which is unusually short has a greater chance of success (in finding a meaningful population of users). That doesn't mean a long zoom wouldn't be useful. At 800mm focal length I can also ask whether a zoom would be able to reach the image quality of a 800 mm FL especially in long-distance shots. Given the atmospheric effects on image quality at long distances, one needs all the optical help one can get to make a clear image.

Roland Vink

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2021, 18:55:26 »
There is a huge gap in primes between 85mm (105mm if you include the micro) and 400mm. 85/1.8 lenses are popular, but I don't understand why more manufacturers don't also have 100/2 and 135/2.8 (or f2.5) lenses in their lineup. Such lenses should provide faster aperture and as good or better image quality as the pro 70-200 zooms in a much smaller and more affordable package. I used the AIS 135/2.8 for many years, with a focal length mid-way of the AF 80-200/2.8 available at the time, it was a viable alternative in most situations.
There is also space for a 200/4 macro and a 300/4 but I guess Nikon have the latter covered with the F-mount 300PF.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2021, 09:35:03 »
There is a huge gap in primes between 85mm (105mm if you include the micro) and 400mm. 85/1.8 lenses are popular, but I don't understand why more manufacturers don't also have 100/2 and 135/2.8 (or f2.5) lenses in their lineup. Such lenses should provide faster aperture and as good or better image quality as the pro 70-200 zooms in a much smaller and more affordable package. I used the AIS 135/2.8 for many years, with a focal length mid-way of the AF 80-200/2.8 available at the time, it was a viable alternative in most situations.
There is also space for a 200/4 macro and a 300/4 but I guess Nikon have the latter covered with the F-mount 300PF.

Nikon have neglected this range of prime lenses for a long time; the 105/2, 135/2, 180/2.8, and 200/4 never got AF-S upgrades in F-mount and even the 300/4 took many years to get VR. There was the 105/1.4 which arguably can act as a replacement for both 105/2 and 135/2 as it is so sharp and fast, even in low light excellent cropped 135mm FOV equivalent images can be made without problems, but of course one could argue that by having a modern 135 mm, one could then maintain larger subject in the viewfinder and potentially crop further, when needed. However, in the end the 105/1.4 and 200/2 which are excellent and AF-S do service quite well, but they're not exactly compact or lightweight. I missed the compact and portable 180/2.8 and would have liked it to be AF-S'd. But Nikon seem to have put their priorities on the 70-200/2.8 and did not feel the need for other fast lenses in this range, I guess. Right, there is the 120-300/2.8, but again the portability advantage of the intermediate aperture primes is not reached with that lens.

I note the same behavior in the Z-mount system; there is a comprehensive range of primes from 20mm to 85mm in f/1.8 aperture (and 50 and 58mm as examples of faster primes to come in the future) and then macros at 50mm and 105mm, but the next prime is a 400mm! A whopping gap right there. Now, I am grateful for the excellent f/1.8 line which I think is very practical in terms of portability and of excellent quality. What is missing from the f/1.8's is a focus distance scale. I do not like the accelerated manual focusing but realized with my Z6 II in video mode that the manual focusing in that mode is very much slower and does not appear immediately as accelerated (did not study this in depth to see if focus ring positions are reproducible vs. distance within the power up period), so Nikon can control the lens manual focus behavior from the camera body, which means they can offer optional control of the MF speed also for stills in the future. The Z9 has a new custom function which allows this to be controlled. Hopefully it'll work across the lens lineup and also included in lower-end camera bodies. The Z 70-200 S already got firmware update to support this function.

I get it that Nikon's initial focus has been to take advantage of Z mount where it provides the most benefit, which is the short and medium focal length lenses. However, now that there are action-capable camera bodies soon available (Z9) and they feature high fps rates and fast autofocusing, silent photography etc. there is growing need for longer focal lengths to be added, which Nikon are addressing in the form of zooms (24-200, 100-400, 200-600, all with small apertures not really suitable for e.g. indoor sports or e.g. wedding ceremony close-ups from a further position; 70-200/2.8 does however work for this but doesn't quite give the subject background separation of the faster lenses when e.g. photographing full body images of people) and some primes in the roadmap: 400/2.8, 400/4.5 (guessing aperture here), 600/4 (guess), 800/6.3 (another guess) which should give a good selection for high-end (= heavy lens) wildlife photography but IMO it leaves a big gap in fast lenses for sports and longer distance shots in events. I get it that a 70-200/2.8 + 400/2.8 can cover things with some cropping or TC use in between but I've grown to love the faster primes in this focal range and I am unlikely to purchase a longer lens for Z until this is addressed. The 400/2.8 is overkill for me and likely very expensive, and the 400/4.5 is likely going to be PF whereas I'm prioritising out-of-focus rendering and prefer the conventional designs. It's like Nikon are jumping past my favorite lenses and ignoring them. ;-) Because I saw this coming I got the 300/2.8. It's very good but not quite as excellent in my opinion as the 200/2 II. I guess it's a subtle thing but I can't quite get the kind of magical results from the 300. It does have higher contrast than the f/4 PF but older VR and older SWM type, and no FL to reduce the weight in the front of the lens.

I guess the lenses I'd be most happy to see in Z mount would be 135/2, 180/2.8 and 300/2.8. I get it that the 200/2 is pretty exotic and it requires a certain commitment to use, but the 135mm's seem popular enough for C and S mounts, for portraits etc. and 300/2.8 is a very common lens in sports photography. I regret it when things move backwards in lens options, don't even let me get started about complete absence of native tilt/shift lenses in Z mount and most other mirrorless systems. I get that Nikon have put out new lenses very rapidly in Z mount, but they tend to concentrate around certain focal lengths. I guess they want to create what is "popular" but this creates a situation where all the major brands offer more or less identical products and then there is a variety of products that are ignored by all of them.

Hugh_3170

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2021, 10:33:28 »
A modern interpretation of the much loved 105mm f/2.5 F-mount lens in the Nikon Z lens road map would be very nice - especially if its size and weight is not too bloated.
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Bill De Jager

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2021, 18:14:16 »
Well put, Ilkka.  I've long want moderate telephoto options that are more portable.  Often I don't want to lug around a 70-200/2.8 because I won't be using all that zoom capability.  A compact 135 or 150 with the 24-70 f/4 would give a nice light, compact kit.

Jan Anne

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2021, 18:27:15 »
Used a 180/2.8 AFD and a Leica 180/3.4 in the past but now kinda settled on the CV125 as a compact tele which can do excellent closeup and macro shots as well, highly versatile lens but wouldn’t mind something a little longer like a 180 or 200mm f/2.8 macro lens to have some more legroom for the long stuff.
Cheers,
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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2021, 19:56:28 »
The upcoming Z 24-120mm S will very slight narrow the gap to the 400mm prime, as a zoom though. Fairly compact and 100g lighter than the F version. Nikon Ricci in today's Grey's Live Stream just stated that he briefly compared the former with the Z 24-70mm/2.8 S and so far has a hard time to see a difference at f/4. Promising.
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2021, 20:53:12 »
A modern interpretation of the much loved 105mm f/2.5 F-mount lens in the Nikon Z lens road map would be very nice - especially if its size and weight is not too bloated.

In the AIS, F-bayonet a 105/2.8 AIS Micro Nikkor could stand in quite well for the 105/2.5 AIS but the Nikon AF-S VR Micro-NIKKOR 105mm f/2.8G IF-ED is far too large and heavy to be a good stand in for the 105/2.5 AIS. The AF-S 105/2.8G IF-ED is a honker. The Nikon NIKKOR Z MC 105mm f/2.8 VR S Macro is also a poor replacement for the 105/2.5 AIS and even for the 105/2.8 AIS Micro. Portability of the AF-S G and Z 105/2.8 Micro lenses is lacking.

Now it's assured that there will never be an AF-S 105mm f/1.8 G or E Nikkor and I doubt that there will ever be 105mm f/1.8 Nikkor in Z mount. Again the 70-200/2.8 in AF-S, G and E and 70-200/2.8 Z Nikkors are no replacement for the light and nimble 105/2.5 AIS and 105/2.8 AIS Micro. It's a sad situation to me.

I guess Nikon's marketing research tells them they can get away without producing a 105/1.8 and also 135/1.8 in Z mount.

Dave
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2021, 22:41:07 »
The upcoming Z 24-120mm S will very slight narrow the gap to the 400mm prime

Let's hope the NIKKOR Z 24-120mm f/4 S has excellent performance wide open at 2 meters and at an effective 95mm to 110mm focal length. Let's hope the bokeh is pleasing. If the performance of this lens is as hoped it will make a better stand in for the 105/2.5 AI & AIS and 105/2.8 AIS (as a portrait lens) Micro Nikkors compared to the AF-S G and Z 105mm f/2.8 Micro Nikkors which are both very large by comparison.

Dave

What about apps, plugins, etc. to fake blur and good bokeh? Are there any that are convincing? What if one only wants to smooth blurred backgrounds slightly to cover for the difference in blur and bokeh between electronic shutters and mechanical shutters? Any hope here?

I guess in this blur and bokeh difference between electronic and mechanical shutters appears at 1/1,000th second and above. Instead of using higher shutter speeds to control exposure one might use a 2x or 4x ND filter. I guess, I'm counting on my fingers, under sunny f/16 rules at ISO 64 the shutter speed at f/4.0 would be 1/1,000th. On white sand it would be 1/2,000th.

Am I talking trash here?
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chambeshi

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2021, 06:59:26 »
On the other hand, looking at the glass half-full, Nikon will hopefully release more "pancake" primes - 85 f2.8 and 105 f2.8. A 105 f2.5 will carry significant appeal, especially it is a Classic build like the new 28 f2.8 SE.

Back on the niche for a 400-800 Super-telephoto zoom (or similar focal range), bear in mind the Sigma 300-800 f5.6 and Nikkor 360-1200 f11 were designed decades ago. Nikon has new materials (SR, Super ED etc), lens-coatings, and lighter alloys / composites. Above all, Nikon has the proven engineering knowledge to design a much more compact telephoto. I am also hopeful they exploit use their phase-fresnel technology ina compact, lighter zoom. 
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Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2021, 04:58:06 »
What about apps, plugins, etc. to fake blur and good bokeh? Are there any that are convincing? What if one only wants to smooth blurred backgrounds slightly to cover for the difference in blur and bokeh between electronic shutters and mechanical shutters? Any hope here?

I guess in this blur and bokeh difference between electronic and mechanical shutters appears at 1/1,000th second and above. Instead of using higher shutter speeds to control exposure one might use a 2x or 4x ND filter. I guess, I'm counting on my fingers, under sunny f/16 rules at ISO 64 the shutter speed at f/4.0 would be 1/1,000th. On white sand it would be 1/2,000th.

Am I talking trash here?


I’d wait and see if efffects on Bokeh are present in the Z9. I’m not certain what root cause may be but fundamentally the light path is the same so it should be the same.

Apps to add blur get better all the time. If the camera is capable of gathering a depth map at the same time as the shot, post processing in circles of confusion of appropriate size is a simple computation and could be aided by subject identification and image segmentation. I expect these and AI powered super resolution will become more and more common.

David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2021, 07:08:09 »
I’d wait and see if efffects on Bokeh are present in the Z9. I’m not certain what root cause may be but fundamentally the light path is the same so it should be the same.

Is there something akin to diffraction at the aperture blades happening at the shutter curtains? I guessing here; I don't know.

Dave
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Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2021, 18:29:15 »
Is there something akin to diffraction at the aperture blades happening at the shutter curtains? I guessing here; I don't know.

Dave

Don’t know either, and to be honest I never noticed any difference in the years I’ve owned my Z6. Guess I’m just not that worried about the quality of my Bokeh as I have other problems to worry about - subjects, composition, color balance, holding the camera straight…

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon Z lenses roadmap (October 2021)
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2021, 18:52:16 »
Let's hope the NIKKOR Z 24-120mm f/4 S has excellent performance wide open at 2 meters and at an effective 95mm to 110mm focal length. Let's hope the bokeh is pleasing. If the performance of this lens is as hoped it will make a better stand in for the 105/2.5 AI & AIS and 105/2.8 AIS (as a portrait lens) Micro Nikkors compared to the AF-S G and Z 105mm f/2.8 Micro Nikkors which are both very large by comparison.

The Z 105 MC is quite lightweight for its size. The Z 24-120/4 is of the same weight as the 105 MC and extended to its long end (120mm) it seems a bit longer than the 105 MC, judging from a combination of written specs and some images and video which show it extended. The 105 MC produces excellent bokeh and it's not much of a stretch to believe that the image quality is better than what a 5x superzoom provides. Of course, you may prefer a zoom for other reasons (such as: it offers multiple focal lengths).

With regards to mechanical vs. electronic shutter and effects on out of focus rendering, I think you're overthinking things.