Author Topic: new pancake Z lenses  (Read 669 times)

David H. Hartman

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Re: new pancake Z lenses
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2021, 20:05:37 »
I have an AF 50/1.8 Nikkor who's focus binds and jumps when one attempts to focus it manually. It's quite impossible to focus it manually. I didn't buy it new so I don't know if that's the way it always was. It's sad but in order to survive Nikon needs to sell what the consumer will buy.

Optically it's very good. I bought it for auto focus, low light shooting and because it's almost distortion free. These were important when I owned a Nikon D2H. It's sad that Nikon had to make a lens with the compromises it has. The low price point was not desirable to me. As the technology improves I've seen a drop in the quality of construction. it just the way things are.

Dave
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: new pancake Z lenses
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2021, 20:35:53 »
I agree with your explanations Ikka, but what you call lightweight lenses in Z series (1,8/50 = 415g ; 1,8/35 =370g; 1,8/85 =470g... not looking the length of these lenses, between 8 and 10cm) has nothing to do with 1,8/50 AFS-G (170g and 52,5mm length) or with the compact 1,8/50 Ais (145g and 27,5mm length); I understand also that new Z-S lenses are better performers but for myself, I would wish some shorter, lighter, more discrete (street photography) but also well built lenses...

I believe there are several manufacturers offering manual focus lenses for Z mount and they will probably increase in number.

For AF, the lenses need to accommodate the focusing motor.  I would first wait to see how the new compact Z Nikkors perform (both in terms of image quality and autofocus) and then judge them for what they are.

I love optical viewfinders but for some documentary situations where silence (or quietness) is important, I will probably get some Z gear.

For this I was thinking that the 20/35/85 from the S-line would be a good fit for me, but to make the camera appear as small as possible while still maintaining autofocus and a reasonably fast aperture, the 40/2 seems tempting.  In that case I might get the 24/1.8, 40/2 and 85/1.8. But here I am assuming that the image quality is such that it can hold its own.

Though I must say I believe the photographer's behavior is more crucial than the size of the lens in achieving a situation where the subjects are either not aware of the photographer or at least can ignore his or her presence.  But in this era of mobile phone photography, a compact lens can't hurt if the goal is not to be the center of attention. Still, in a lot of documentary photography, f/2.8 zooms seem to be standard practice so in comparison with those, even the f/1.8 S-line lenses are relatively small.

David H. Hartman

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Re: new pancake Z lenses
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2021, 20:52:18 »
For AF, the lenses need to accommodate the focusing motor.  I would first wait to see how the new compact Z Nikkors perform (both in terms of image quality and autofocus) and then judge them for what they are.

Given RoHS lead free solder, we don't know if our AF lenses will survive long enough to wear out. Some may be useless in 10 years or so. Cameras and lenses never were an investment, not the majority of them. Today more than ever they are a depreciable expense.

Though I must say I believe the photographer's behavior is more crucial than the size of the lens in achieving a situation where the subjects are either not aware of the photographer or at least can ignore his or her presence.

Back in the days of film a Rollie TLR could not be beat for getting ignored by subjects. Shooting from the waist is so non-aggressive. Add the relative silence of the TLR to easily being ignored.

Dave
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: new pancake Z lenses
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2021, 22:24:43 »
David, do you have a lot of experience with Nikon products failing, and what percentage of those were due to solder? I seem to be lucky since I just haven't run into that.

I have many Nikon products made in the RoHS era that are more than ten years old and they all work fine. I have had a couple of electronics failures but those all happened in a few years from purchase.

In here https://www.indium.com/blog/rohs-ten-years-later-the-transition-to-lead-free-electronics-assembly-1.php

"One of the challenges in field reliability data is that electronic assemblers are reluctant to publish the data, as they consider the information proprietary. However, I have talked to a few managers responsible for such data, and they all confirm that the field reliability of lead-free assembled electronics is equal or better than that assembled with tin lead solder."

Øivind Tøien

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Re: new pancake Z lenses
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2021, 00:08:12 »

In many cases components have to be tougher now because the lead free solders have a slightly higher melting point. As long as proper adapted production techniques are used there should not be any problems. The lead free solder does not look as good as it often quickly looses its shiny surface, but that does not mean solder joints are less secure over time.
Øivind Tøien

David H. Hartman

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Re: new pancake Z lenses
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2021, 03:46:34 »
David, do you have a lot of experience with Nikon products failing, and what percentage of those were due to solder? I seem to be lucky since I just haven't run into that.

I believe this is a new phenomenon and I certainly hope it's over hyped (click bait) but I've bumped into a NASA website talking about tin whiskers. I've read there is a symbol on consumer electronics that indicates a 10 year life expectancy. In my searches for information I ended up trying to load a site claiming all dogs descended from one wolf. I tried but my search skill aren't what they should be.

So among my Nikkor lenses from the RoHS lead free solder era none are 10 years old as yet.

Dave
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David H. Hartman

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Re: new pancake Z lenses
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2021, 07:19:10 »
In many cases components have to be tougher now because the lead free solders have a slightly higher melting point. As long as proper adapted production techniques are used there should not be any problems.

Please, I hope you are right.

Dave
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Øivind Tøien

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Re: new pancake Z lenses
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2021, 07:33:14 »
The NASA link that comes up in a search indicates that the whiskers is a rare phenomenon detected long before lead free solders were in use and that the presence of lead in the solders ability to prevent them is pretty anectodical. Most of the information on that page seems to be from 2006 and earlier by the way, and there are many broken links. The solders used today are not pure tin but typically alloys where lead is substituted for silver plus another metal. So relax, this is not ticking time bomb ready to fire off once your lead free lens reaches 10 years age.  ;D  My D40x is from 2008 and still going strong, the D200 from 2006...

And there are many other ways electronics can fail, for instance leaching (diffusion of certain metals into each other - I learned about this when looking for non-magnetic capacitors to be used in a 1.5Tesla magnetic field. The magnetic nickel barrier that normally helps preventing leaching in the electrodes of the capacitors must be replaced by other metal alloys) if one really want to have another thing to worry about as a consumer of electronics.  ;)
Øivind Tøien

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: new pancake Z lenses
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2021, 10:41:45 »
The 10 means the product is not expected to leak hazardous substances within 10 years. The next class up is 25 years. In the case of Nikon lenses, that hazardous substance that the product typically contains a small amount of is lead (it is listed in the product manual). It doesn't mean the product's expected lifetime is 10 years. It means that they cannot guarantee that the materials which contain a small amount of lead won't leak a bit of it in 25 years for example, but they're confident that it doesn't leak it (in quantity exceeding regulations) in 10 years.

MILLIREHM

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Re: new pancake Z lenses
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2021, 20:59:30 »
I am not convinced that plastic mount is the right signal for this kind of Pancake lenses
Wolfgang Rehm

Hans_S

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Re: new pancake Z lenses
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2021, 03:24:16 »
I believe this is a new phenomenon and I certainly hope it's over hyped (click bait) but I've bumped into a NASA website talking about tin whiskers. I've read there is a symbol on consumer electronics that indicates a 10 year life expectancy. ~
Dave

David, I started my working life in computer manufacturing 45 years ago. I recall our quality control people, back then, jumping up and down about circuit boards having to be scrupulously clean after having been wave soldered...all traces of flux had to be removed.
The concern was (if I remember correctly) that flux residue and atmospheric moisture would provide a medium for filaments to grow in via an electroplating process. This was in the days of 60% tin, 40% lead solder. So the concern about whiskers and filaments has been around well before the advent of Pb free solder.

I suspect solder masks on PCB's, proper cleaning and layout design make whiskers a complete non-issue in today's consumer gear.

Hans