Author Topic: Cameras: Coming Full Circle  (Read 42863 times)

David H. Hartman

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #135 on: October 02, 2016, 14:24:26 »
If the Medium Format cameras were priced the same as the FF cameras, we would not be having this discussion. Many of us would just be having MF cameras. It is not that I am leaving FF cameras to go to meet the MF cameras; they are coming down in price (eventually) to meet me.

Medium format dSLR(s) will never supplant 36x24mm format dSLR(s). The smaller format will always be more versatile and more widely used. Give up the crusade or go on an all night crusade against the devil, either way enjoy your choice.

Dave

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Michael Erlewine

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #136 on: October 02, 2016, 14:30:25 »
Medium format dSLR(s) will never supplant 36x24mm format dSLR(s). The smaller format will always be more versatile. Give up the crusade or go on an all night crusade against the devil, either way enjoy your choice.

Dave

Look! the fool said "never"

That same logic extends right on down to the smallest sensor. I believe that larger sensors will become de facto, the standard, sooner or later. As for telling me what to do, there is a reciprocal for that too. <G>
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #137 on: October 02, 2016, 14:33:31 »
OK, don't enjoy your choice.  :D
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #138 on: October 02, 2016, 15:14:08 »
Why Nikon isn't focused on mirrorless is simple: they have a very good position in the much larger DSLR market with basically only one major competitor, an established customer base and a very comprehensive product line that took decades to build. They have no special skills or expertise which would make them do well in mirrorless against the competition which includes many competitors who have been doing it already many years, have lots of lenses etc. This year mirrorless ILC sales has declined at a similar pace compared to last year than DSLR sales so there doesn't seem to be much space for an additional competitor and product line especially if it is not in any particular way better than the competitors. It only takes brief experience with Nikon's live view in low light to make the guess that they would do really badly in mirrorless. Canon is now daring to enter APS-C mirrorrless but their live view has always been better and now they have a superior AF technology that is ideal for live view, video and mirrorless. Without such technology there is no chance of success in such a highly competed and currently declining market.

By contrast Nikon has an excellent product line for DSLR and the new Multi-CAM 20k is superb for focusing on moving subjects even in very low light. So it makes sense to put resources where they can excel. I like the OVF for people photography and I need the real time artifact free viewing of subject details of the subject's expression so I can anticipate how the situation will evolve. I am unable to make my photos of people subjects  based on EVF viewing. I totally understand that there are photographers who can use and like an EVF. Plenty of products in this segment exist to choose from.

Les Olson

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #139 on: October 02, 2016, 18:15:29 »
The point I wanted to make is that the assumption that preferences do not change is not warranted in general. Thus there is nothing irrational about making different decisions at different points in time if either preferences or other boundary conditions have changed, or based on new information that is gathered along the way. On the contrary, that sort of adaptation is perfectly sensible and has a solid basis in statistics and decision theory.

If you say "a photographer who did not want that sensor last year because she was happy with the colour and tonal subtlety of her images has no reason to want it this year" you are assuming that the photographer did not change or learn new information between last year and now, which is not warranted IMO.

No, I am not assuming that - on the contrary, I specified that if the photographer gained new insight into what, eg, "tonal subtlety" could mean her wants could change to match.  I assumed only, as I think is reasonable in the context of this forum, that last year she thought about her photography and what could make it better.  And my point was simply that, last year, thinking about what could make her photography better must have included consideration of a medium format camera with the same 44 x 33mm sensor the X1D has.  And if she decided last year that such a camera would not make her photography better she has no reason to think otherwise this year.  How can this possibly be controversial? 

Sure, maybe last year the photographs she was taking were not ones that would benefit from (say) more dynamic range, and the photographs she is taking this year are.  I am struggling to think how that could arise in practice, but let's suppose it did.  In that case, however - and this is the key point - she will be able to show us actual pictures she has taken that would benefit from more dynamic range, not merely refer to pictures she imagines taking that she imagines would benefit from more dynamic range.

Of course, maybe last year she did not think about what could make her photography better, and did not want a larger format merely because she had never thought about it.  But she did have reason to want a larger format last year and if she had thought about it last year she would have reached the same conclusion as now.  The same is true of a photographer who last year did not know what dynamic range is, and so did not appreciate that her photographs would benefit from more of it.  But in this case also she had reason to want a larger format last year, and if she had known then what dynamic range is she would have reached the same conclusion as now. 


Michael Erlewine

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #140 on: October 02, 2016, 18:23:29 »
What I am looking forward to seeing is whether, with advances in sensor technology, if the FF sensor can have still smaller photosites, but retain the kind of dynamic range I see in the Nikon D810, which has been wonderful. That would extend the value of the many FF lenses that I have. But whether or not that is true, those same advances promise to make MF sensors even more useful and with even deeper/better photosites.
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Les Olson

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #141 on: October 02, 2016, 18:27:57 »
Your assumptions are not warranted, since each will decide what gear is suited for which task. I.e. some use M43 for landscapes.

Yes, but they have to make those decisions on the basis of reasons, and the reasons have to be based on fact, if the decisions are to be called rational.  You can't say, eg, "I use 8 x 10 film for landscapes because I hate carrying a large, heavy camera".  And you can't say "I use the X1D for portraits to get a shallow depth of field that 35mm cannot provide". 

David H. Hartman

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #142 on: October 03, 2016, 05:09:08 »
Why Nikon isn't focused on mirrorless is simple...

I agree with everything it that paragraph. I would be surprised if Nikon isn't working to address technology they lack but it would be foolish to enter the mirrorless market prematurely.

I like the OVF for people photography and I need the real time artifact free viewing of subject details of the subject's expression so I can anticipate how the situation will evolve.

Many would think of timing in connection with sports, action, wildlife and others that require precise timing but forget how important anticipating the expression and gestures of people before they are full and ready to photograph. One has to press the shutter in anticipation of these. In all action photography including a person's face the reaction time of the photographer and the camera, both need to be correct or the moment will be missed. I still need an optical viewfinder for my primary camera. Electronic viewfinders need more development.

Dave
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Oh no, must be the season of the witch!

bjornthun

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Re: Cameras: Coming Full Circle
« Reply #143 on: October 03, 2016, 11:11:27 »
Why Nikon isn't focused on mirrorless is simple: they have a very good position in the much larger DSLR market with basically only one major competitor, an established customer base and a very comprehensive product line that took decades to build. They have no special skills or expertise which would make them do well in mirrorless against the competition which includes many competitors who have been doing it already many years, have lots of lenses etc. This year mirrorless ILC sales has declined at a similar pace compared to last year than DSLR sales so there doesn't seem to be much space for an additional competitor and product line especially if it is not in any particular way better than the competitors. It only takes brief experience with Nikon's live view in low light to make the guess that they would do really badly in mirrorless. Canon is now daring to enter APS-C mirrorrless but their live view has always been better and now they have a superior AF technology that is ideal for live view, video and mirrorless. Without such technology there is no chance of success in such a highly competed and currently declining market.

By contrast Nikon has an excellent product line for DSLR and the new Multi-CAM 20k is superb for focusing on moving subjects even in very low light. So it makes sense to put resources where they can excel. I like the OVF for people photography and I need the real time artifact free viewing of subject details of the subject's expression so I can anticipate how the situation will evolve. I am unable to make my photos of people subjects  based on EVF viewing. I totally understand that there are photographers who can use and like an EVF. Plenty of products in this segment exist to choose from.
Three comments,
Market outlook
All market data for all sorts of cameras from April 2016 onward may be skewed, due to the Kumanoto earthquake, that devastated Sony's sensor manufacturing capabilities. Almost every manufactuere except Canon source all or some of their sensors from Sony. Nikon specifically mentions this effect in their Q1 2016/17 financial report and lowered their sales forecast due to this.

Liveview quality
The last DSLR I had was the Nikon D800, and the liveview on that one was inferior to that of Sony A7 and Olympus OM-D E-M1 (the latter in good light). The D800 is after all an "old" model by now. Hasn't Nikon fixed the live view quality issues now? Aren't the D500 and D5 on par with the best liveview that Canon and Sony offer in their cameras?

Liveview AF
I know that Nikon still relies on contrast detect AF in liveview, but that should be a matter of sourcing sensors with PDAF from e.g. Sony, like Fujifilm and Olympus do. Afaik, the Nikon 1 system uses on sensor PDAF, so Nikon has the know how on how to implement those sensors in a camera, assuming now that Nikon 1 mirrorless is sufficiently similar to the liveview mode of a DSLR for know how to carry over.