NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Gary on August 04, 2015, 00:16:04
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I am thinking of picking up a Petzval for the circular distortions/bokeh which it delivers. The lens @ approx. $600, makes me a bit hesitant to purchase. I'm not so sure that the value is there. What you you peoples think about the Petzval? Is there other lenses out there that you prefer over a Petzval?
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A pic from last year. The new Petzval 85/2,2 with PK-13.
Focusing is an issue with this lens. It's never sharp enough, not even in the center. Also the aperture plates have a tendency to fall off. The lens cap likewise.
Saturation and contrast is very low. The lens is a challenge to work with, but quite fun.
Crocus vernus.
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Here's another one - this time without the extension ring.
Apple.
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What mount are you looking at? some old school lenses has similar look...
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What mount are you looking at? some old school lenses has similar look...
I will be using it on a Fuji, so any mount and an appropriate adaptor would work.
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I love the purple flowers. So dreamy. Wonderful. Perfect depiction often seems so lifeless, I prefer the dreamy style for flowers, I do not shoot textbook style.
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Many lenses from say the '50s have almost perfectly circular apertures using a high number of blades. The inferior coating technology and optics that deliver lower contrast images in conjunction with substantial optical aberrations, and you have a lot of fun to play with. Look for Russian or East German lenses post-WW2 as they often have such characteristics and do come pretty cheap much of the time.
The original Petzval design of the 18th century only was sharp on axis, something deemed perfect for portraits of the time.
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I was going to suggest old lenses in Leica Screw Mount also called Leica Thread Mount, LSM LTM 39
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I love the purple flowers. So dreamy. Wonderful. Perfect depiction often seems so lifeless,
Thanks, Frank Fremerey!
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And I also thank you Björn Carlén, very nice image and precisely the type if image quality I am seeking. I am wondering if there are specifically any lens out there that will approximate the Petzval that are built better, sharper or out Petzval the Petzval in character?
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You might want to check out the Russian Helios-40, now available again. It has actual helicoid focusing and a real iris aperture.
Here's a nice writeup about it:
http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/reviews/helios-40-2_85mm_f1-5_review.html (http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/reviews/helios-40-2_85mm_f1-5_review.html)
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Or the Jupiter 9, 85mm f/2 it will out Petzval the Petzval in character
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Thank you Keith and Erik. I'm on it.
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Keep a resale value in mind, Gary ;)
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Keep a resale value in mind, Gary ;)
Thanks John, but I rarely resell my stuff. While value is always important ... my overriding concerns is photography. I am not a collector. Usually, I give away my unused stuff to friends and my kids.
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In my collection of silly lenses, two stand out for their circular bokeh, in case this is what you are after, namely the Biotar 75/1.5 (second version with more swirly bokeh - first version better for portraits) and the Trioplan 100/2.8 which is the poor man's Biotar.....kind of Ferrari and Maserati.
I would not buy a Petzval...old or new.
Here is a pic of the Trioplan.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Duke_1/IMG_0948%202_zpssxkwzrvd.jpg)
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Thank you Almass. I will definitely look into these lens. I appreciate you providing specific information.
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Got a Lomography 2.2/85mm Petzval last year
Didn't so much buy it for the circular bokeh, but more for the very characteristic shallow Dof when used (nearly) wide open, and steep sharpness drop off outside the distinctly limited sharp image centre.
Focusing even on (slowly) moving subjects turned out to go much easier on my DF then I expected despite the antique gear rack system, although it admittedly takes some getting used to
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Thank you Paul K ... and those images are very nice.
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Based on these shots, especially the first one, the Petzval look seems very appropriate for portrait use.
Gary, if you are going to be shooting on a Fujifilm X cam, the 85mm FOV on APS-C may be a bit on the long side(FF=127mm); I've used my old Nikon 55mm/1.2 lens on my Fujifilm cam. Wide open it's loaded with aberrations, but there are limitations as well: The effect is strongest wide open, and largely disappears by f/2.8. Also, there are a lot of color aberrations on the OOF zones, including deep greenish cyan fringing, so often conversion to monochrome works better.
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I dunno, BUT I AM LOVING THE LOOK of the Petzval.
That purple flower photos is really great and the portraits are wonderful. I am just not sure I could use it. Though I want to..
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Why would I need a new Petzval, as there are plenty excellet ones around since many decades...
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3909/14941060838_00a6dfee60_o.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3856/14820617360_109c4a335a_o.jpg)
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Dr Klaus, the first shot is truly magical!
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I love the first one Klaus. It reminds me of this line by the Beatles: "cellophane flowers of yellow and green towering over your head, look for the girl with the sun in her eyes and she is gone..."
PS: Where can I buy a Petzval in great condition for Nikon F?
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I love the first one Klaus. It reminds me of this line by the Beatles: "cellophane flowers of yellow and green towering over your head, look for the girl with the sun in her eyes and she is gone..."
PS: Where can I buy a Petzval in great condition for Nikon F?
Me too! I am sold.
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Now I got interested, too :)
I love blurry and bokeh capable lenses.
A quick search on eBay resulted in:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Cyclop-1-5-85-Helios-40-2-M42-Portrait-Objektiv-bokeh-monster-Petzval-swirl-/261997564089?hash=item3d004590b9
It's not expensive but it's an M42 mount lens.
Wouldn't know how difficult it would be to modify for Nikon f-mount?
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Thank you Jakov. The text says the linked lens has *no* aperture at all and is in M42 (is this adaptable to Nikon)?
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Thank you Jakov. The text says the linked lens has *no* aperture at all and is in M42 (is this adaptable to Nikon)?
This one is breathtaking too: https://www.flickr.com/photos/tuvidaloca/16913663113/in/pool-1516820@N25/
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Lenses with M42 threads can be adapted to Nikon. However, you might, depending on the lens build, lose infinity focus unless the lens is modified to negate the difference in register distance.
Having seen some examples of the "Cyclop" in action I doubt infinity focus is that important in the end, though.
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Thank you Bjørn!
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Now I got interested, too :)
I love blurry and bokeh capable lenses.
A quick search on eBay resulted in:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Cyclop-1-5-85-Helios-40-2-M42-Portrait-Objektiv-bokeh-monster-Petzval-swirl-/261997564089?hash=item3d004590b9
It's not expensive but it's an M42 mount lens.
Wouldn't know how difficult it would be to modify for Nikon f-mount?
Buy it'! Even if it's just for the super cool name :*
I'll put a F-mount on it no problem, I'm sure Bjørn will sell you a custom CPU to go
Should be possible to get infinity but yes who cares...
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Or we add a Nikon 1 mount as well, do this all the time with Bjørns lenses - Go for it!
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Or we add a Nikon 1 mount as well, do this all the time with Bjørns lenses - Go for it!
You buy it then! 8)
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He he ;D
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I ended up with your Heligon, and I see I'll end up with your Cyclop too ;P
You wanna share?
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This is the same lens AFAIK
http://www.ebay.de/itm/NEW-DESIGN-Helios-40-2-N-85-mm-f-1-5-MC-Lens-Nikon-bayonet-mounts-Brand-New-2015-/261994003613?hash=item3d000f3c9d
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Here is an other New Petzval 85 shot. This time without any specular highlights. And this is about as close as it can focus, without any help.
Wealth.
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This is the same lens AFAIK
http://www.ebay.de/itm/NEW-DESIGN-Helios-40-2-N-85-mm-f-1-5-MC-Lens-Nikon-bayonet-mounts-Brand-New-2015-/261994003613?hash=item3d000f3c9d
No good, it doesn't say Cyclop :D
Nice image Björn!
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Remove all aperture blades from the Helios, or epoxy the aperture at f/1.5 setting. Now you can have a Cyclop as well .....
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The above image was shot totally open. I had left my aperture plates at home, so I put some black tape on the waterhouse slot, to avoid stray light, and used it like that. The biggest aperture plate is f/2,2 so presumingly this is the same. What do you say – could there be any downsides of shooting it in this manner?
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Yes , there can/will be a slight difference in rendering depending on where the light rays gets cut in the optical assembly.
A quick test to see this is to make a small square opening cut in a pice of cardboard and place it in front of the lens and the behind the lens.
Then look at the OOF rendering
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This is the same lens AFAIK
http://www.ebay.de/itm/NEW-DESIGN-Helios-40-2-N-85-mm-f-1-5-MC-Lens-Nikon-bayonet-mounts-Brand-New-2015-/261994003613?hash=item3d000f3c9d
No good, it doesn't say Cyclop :D
Nice image Björn!
He he ::) :o
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Apart from getting very short exposures, and short depth of field, I see no harm in using any lens at its widest aperture setting.
Mechanical vignetting can occur, though.
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yes and no.
The lens is f/2.2 and the largest aperture insert is f/2.2 this could indicate that it is needed to cut the light rays at the 'correct' intended position.
It could also indicate that they would not design a 'door' without the waterhouse 'blade'....
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Another simle test would of course be shooting the same object once with the 2,2 blade, and once with just an empty waterhouse. I've just been too lazy for that up until now.
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A brand new lens from the Russian Zenit website says:
http://shop.zenit-foto.ru/ob-ektivy/gelios-40-2n-2015-04-03-detail
That is about €225. That means that eBay sellers are ripping us off...
So, is there anybody in Russia that can purchase this lens for us ;)
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haha.
I believe the EU has some import-restrictions with Russia ;)
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It's not food ...
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I now the offer for a very good Cyclops in m42 for 225 + 7 s&h = 232€
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I now the offer for a very good Cyclops in m42 for 225 + 7 s&h = 232€
I got mine for EUR20. Has the Rubel gotten so strong against the EUR??
And btw. what has all that to do with a PETZVAL lens? Helios and Cyclop are BIOTAR lens designs.... DUHHHH
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Klaus, we are talking about the swirl Bokeh of lenses! Similar to the Petzval!
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Klaus, we are talking about the swirl Bokeh of lenses! Similar to the Petzval!
ohhh, OK, got it.
How about old projection lenses then, most of them ARE Petzval designs and have all that....
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8858/17331148951_4f02f13b2c_o.jpg)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8610/16465710310_608a0b0ac4_o.jpg)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8646/15169037953_627e798a02_o.jpg)
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Dr Klaus, I would love to know about old projection lenses.
The images you posted are magical.
What are they, where can they be bought, etc.
Thanks, Jakov
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Dr Klaus, I would love to know about old projection lenses.
The images you posted are magical.
What are they, where can they be bought, etc.
Thanks, Jakov
I write something up about them, will take a few days as I have a busy week...
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3909/14941060838_00a6dfee60_o.jpg)
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I love that last image.
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Nice images Klaus.
These doesn't have the swirl look, these images have the highlight ring in the OOF highlights.
The old Noctilux 50mm 1.0 Leica M has swirl oof as well, but in the other end of the price range.
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Interesting lens. I don't have it, but I do have a question. I wonder if one of our lens experts here can suggest any other lenses that give us this kind of effect, but are perhaps a little sharper. You would think that Adobe could add an effect to their Lightroom Radial Filter that would preserve the sharpness wherever we place the center and produce some of these swirling bokeh effects everywhere else. Any ideas?
The nikon 135mm dc f/2 can get some nice blurs.
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The 50mm 1.2 or 55 1.2 series of lenses will do that Michael, the later the sharper... I would recommend to buy a new 50mm 1.2 Ais still in production and relativly cheap...
Edit: Also for you Gary! :)
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Since I have the Nikon 50mm f/1.2 AIS and the Nikon 135mm DC, I thought I would check them out. This was just a quickie in the studio early in the morning with LED 5600 light, so I could get an idea. Interesting, but I imagine I can get something similar with the CRT Nikkor or even the Zeiss Otus 55mm (wide open and stacked. I might try them outside when the Sun comes up.
Nikon D810, lenses wide open. Zerene Stacker to get some amount in focus.
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This thread is making me buy lenses I thought I never needed...
Thus far, it's the Zenit 85/1.5, and now the 50/1.2 and the 135/2.0DC.
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Yes Michael, a little more provocation of the highlights - Bright point light sources will do it.
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Well, it looks like many lenses will give us a good bokeh effect, provided that I shoot wide open, and for the most part stack the images. Using higher apertures does not improve the effect. So I will need to use a lens that is very sharp wide-open, fast, and stack the images.
I can’t get the little-swirly effect, and I doubt that I will order a Petzval, just because it (for all its beauty) seems like a hassle for my work flow. Then again, I might. I bet that my friend Klaus Schmitt may have some suggestions for getting exotic effects from various lenses.
The images here are on the Nikon D810:
El Nikor APO 105mm on the Nikon PB-4 Bellows
The CRT-Nikor mounted on a rail.
The Zeiss Otus 55mm APO just on the Nikon.
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it you want swirly bokeh, try the Helios 44.
I just got mine (20€). Not really sharp at least when combined with the Lens Turbo II on Fuji, but quite fun to play with.
It is probably a gimmick but definitely something nice to have in one's arsenal.
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Ohh man ... my finger was on the trigger for the Petzval ... and now you show me this. ... Looks acceptable sharp to me. Do you know how much more unsharp the Helios 44 is compared to the unsharp Petzval? If I just use an empty adaptor ... will I gain any additional sharpness?
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Sorry Gary, I can't answer your questions. I don't have an empty adaptor ready for M42 and can't compare to Petzval which I've never seen.
From what I have read the Helios is supposed to be very sharp, with major variations from sample to sample.
But given the price, the risk is minimal!
I read the 44-2 (which I have) gives the best swirl, the later productions were sharper though.
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Sorry Gary, I can't answer your questions. I don't have an empty adaptor ready for M42 and can't compare to Petzval which I've never seen.
From what I have read the Helios is supposed to be very sharp, with major variations from sample to sample.
But given the price, the risk is minimal!
I read the 44-2 (which I have) gives the best swirl, the later productions were sharper though.
Okay ... that's it! I'm having a lens party. All you photogs with cool lens ... my house, next Saturday, BBQ, Wine, Beer, bring your lenses for moi to examine and try. (I'd have it tomorrow but I need to get some adaptors.)
PM me your RSVP and I'll respond accordingly.
PS- I make great BBQ and I have some quite nice California wines. I'll toss in some real Mexican food ... which for all you European types, will truly be a treat ... and maybe some Mariachis to add some spice to the evening. ;)
G
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looking for flights...
Well, maybe I'll be in your area next summer, this would be a good opportunity!
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The Speed Booster adapter makes for more sharpness:) image is condensed so to say. There is a Whitepaper by Brian Caldwell
http://www.metabones.com/assets/a/stories/Speed%20Booster%20White%20Paper.pdf
Not sure the 'copy' can do that though as extreme precision is required.
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You are right of course, Erik. But given what I am after here, it doesn't really matter!
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I agree completely!!!
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looking for flights...
Well, maybe I'll be in your area next summer, this would be a good opportunity!
YES!
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Since there is a Petzval thread, I can't resist sharing this one:
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I posted 9 images in this thread
http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,1595.msg17154.html#msg17154
All Shot with 40-2 the 85mm f/1.5 Zenith Lens belongs to Jakov, thank you for the opportunity to tr it out!
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Since there is a Petzval thread, I can't resist sharing this one:
outworldly beautiful.- Thank you!
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Okay ... that's it! I'm having a lens party. All you photogs with cool lens ... my house, next Saturday, BBQ, Wine, Beer, bring your lenses for moi to examine and try. (I'd have it tomorrow but I need to get some adaptors.)
PM me your RSVP and I'll respond accordingly.
PS- I make great BBQ and I have some quite nice California wines. I'll toss in some real Mexican food ... which for all you European types, will truly be a treat ... and maybe some Mariachis to add some spice to the evening. ;)
G
I will come and bring my children (and hopefully my wife if her employer allows) but this will not be before Easter 2016 out of many reasons. I had hoped to close an important deal earlier but this will probably not be the case.
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I will come and bring my children (and hopefully my wife if her employer allows) but this will not be before Easter 2016 out of many reasons. I had hoped to close an important deal earlier but this will probably not be the case.
We're having a party! ;D