NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Frank Fremerey on September 19, 2016, 17:54:39
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At a press conference Fuji has revealed the GFX Medium Format Mirrorless Camera (M&M) 44x33 qmm sensor, six lenses announced:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2016/09/19/fuji-press-conference-live
OHOH
Fuji Aquisition Syndrom!!!!
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https://www.dpreview.com/news/8411827820/fujfilm-announces-development-gfx-50s-medium-format-digital
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At a press conference Fuji has revealed the GFX Medium Format Mirrorless Camera (M&M) 44x33 qmm sensor, six lenses announced:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2016/09/19/fuji-press-conference-live
OHOH
Fuji Aquisition Syndrom!!!!
Very interesting!
Quote from Fuji X forum: "with 63mm and viewfinder sub 10,000 US$"
I'm already cured of that ... ;)
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Very interesting!
Quote from Fuji X forum: "with 63mm and viewfinder sub 10,000 US$"
I'm already cured of that ... ;)
How much without a lens? I want a digiback for my Sinar.
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How much without a lens? I want a digiback for my Sinar.
Haven't seen any price for body/VF only, but it would probably be very nice with your Sinar.
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Did someone find if we see a Bayer or an X-Trans-Chip here???
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It seems the 50MP sensor is of the traditional Bayer type. I think this is the right thing to do as in this league professionals will want to work with the RAW converter of their choice. Not all RAW converters have been successful in delivering good quality from XTRANS data.
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So, Daniel, you guess it is the same sensor we meet in the Hasselblad M&M?
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Apparently the sensor is the same one as those used in Hassy X1D-50c and Pentax 645Z.
EDIT:
According to Impress-Watch news, Fuji didn't mention if the sensor is of X-Trans type, but it is newly designed. Here you see screen shots of descriptions of the mount system:
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/1020858.html
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Apparently, there is a provision for tilting the finder up, with an accessory mount of some kind. I like that.
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I like the design. Looks like a dependable camera to walk about anywhere in this world
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According to this teaser of DigitalRev TV (1:06 and later), GF-X looks very small.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtKuKq89m8c
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Very alternative position of the grip controls :o
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The first camera I know that had a vertical grip of this design (where the shutter button comes to the same height as the "normal" one) was Minolta XM Motor.
I would consider it an excellent design.
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At a press conference Fuji has revealed the GFX Medium Format Mirrorless Camera (M&M) 44x33 qmm sensor, six lenses announced:
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2016/09/19/fuji-press-conference-live
I hope the rest of the information is more accurate than "World's first medium format camera with focal plane shutter" and "[...] our G lenses [...] are designed to be sharp at any aperture."
Although, if "medium format" means 44 x 33mm, who can tell what words will mean?
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Although, if "medium format" means 44 x 33mm, who can tell what words will mean?
Available "medium formats" are 49x49, 54x40, 33x44, 45x30, 48x32
bigger you can get if you are military or government
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PS: http://www.fujifilm-x.com/de/gfx/
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So the sensor is about the same dimensions as a 645 negative with about 20% taken off the length and breadth of the negative. (Nominally 56mm x 42mm down to 44mm x 33mm.)
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This new Fuji could be a real game changer - the commoditisation of larger format mirrorless professional cameras?
Yes Canikon should be sitting up and taking notice and the Hasselblad team may have erred in not keeping such a serious new competitor locked down as they have in the past. (I would say that their CEOs and Board members will be taking very substantial doses of Imodium about now. ;D :o :o ;))
As for the camera, I cannot get over how small it is for its format size - it is not much bigger than its recently released stablemate, the X-T2.
I have no doubt that Fuji will soon be No.3 camera maker. The manner in which they have managed their whole business conglomerate in the face of the digital revolution and their move into new fields such as pharmaceuticals and industrial chemicals, without wasting or divesting any of their core competencies such as their industrial scale chemical engineering or scientific R&D teams, tells me that these guys are going to be around for a very long time to come. The direct opposite to the poor sad "Yellow" team. George Eastman must be turning in his grave.
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I have been waiting for this ....but why is it so ugly :-(
It will all depend on the pricing but I'm still interested.
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I thought medium format started with 56x42mm. Is there a crop factor for these smaller than medium yet bigger than full format, formats? :)
Dave
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I have been waiting for this ....but why is it so ugly :-(
It will all depend on the pricing but I'm still interested.
I don't mind that it looks like a machine. All that matters in the end is what it feels like to use it.
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David, that is what I thought too. Obviously we are both wrong!
If the film 645 negative size is the medium format starting point, then this new Fuji has a crop factor (God forbid) of x 1.25 wrt to 645 film.
If I recall correctly, the Leica S Type has a 37.5MPx sensor size of 45mm x 30mm, so the 4:3 format of the new Fuji is of comparable size, whilst that of the 51.4MPx Pentax digital 645 is 43.8mm x 32.8mm - the same as for the new Fuji.
Except for the consideration of the sensor area that the optics of these cameras can cover, it may be best to drop the medium format digital camera language altogether, least we resurrect yet another round of "equivalence misinformation & confusion" similar to that surrounding DX/APS-C sensor size cameras versus those with FX/135/24x36m sensors and the related equivalence nonsense that is still pervading cyberspace!
I thought medium format started with 56x42mm. Is there a crop factor for these smaller than medium yet bigger than full format, formats? :)
Dave
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I thought medium format started with 56x42mm. Is there a crop factor for these smaller than medium yet bigger than full format, formats? :)
Fo a while the most common format was the 48x36 double 135, dubbed as "48 Format"
For current offerings look
here: https://www.phaseone.com/~/media/NEW_WEB/Tech-Spec/Backs/XF-spec-sheet-jan02-RGB-A4.ashx
and here: http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/credo.html
Result: Newest generation is 54x40 and 44x33 (also Hasselblad / Fuji), except for Leica which ist 45x30 (Sinar joined that club at Photokina 16 with the 30|45 mobile back that is controlled with an iPad)
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OK, I could settle for 53.9x40.4mm format. :)
Dave
Oh Joy! The Crop Factor is 0.666. hehehe
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Available "medium formats" are 49x49, 54x40, 33x44, 45x30, 48x32
The format diagonals for 35mm, 44x33, 645, 6x6 and 6x7 are 43mm, 55mm, 72mm, 79mm and 88mm respectively. There has never been precise definition of medium format, but in film days it was easy to say where medium format began because there was, for all practical purposes, nothing between 135 and 120 (the exception was 127). Now there is quite a lot between 35mm and 645, and, of course, for your own purposes you can place the dividing line wherever you like - although, for the record, the biggest gap is between 44x33 and 645.
The point, however, is that for marketing purposes the dividing line can't be placed arbitrarily. The term "medium format" is being inappropriately used by Fuji (and Hasselblad) to borrow the mystique and prestige of film medium format for a sensor that is only a shade larger than 35mm.
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In terms of practical applications there isn't as much need for the larger medium formats as digital is higher quality per sensor area than film. The cost of making large sensors is disproportionally high. I think it is okay to call the new 44x33mm medium format if the terminology is agreed between different manufacturers then there is no misunderstanding among users either. Film users may protest (I used 6x7) but it doesn't seem likely that the larger formats of the film era will return in digital.
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Lenses for true Digital resolution MF like 6x6 or 6x7 giving they where to perform like the high end lenses we are used to now for DSLR would be so super expensive heavy and huge!
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The pentax 6x7 lenses come to mind, obviously, by adapter
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Ilkka: You never know. There might be some day someone inventing a production process with relatively large, relatively fail safe structures that can be manufactured more cheaply and make a 17x6 with HUGE pixels.
I am quite positive that the non existing economics of scale contribute to the horrendous amount these Digital Backs and Camera Systems cost. The bigger ones are still in the 30.000 to 45.000 Euro range.
If Fuji now brings down the system price into the range of a D5, more people will be able to buy it and that may bring down prices.
We will see what Fuji will charge for the system.
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Lenses for true Digital resolution MF like 6x6 or 6x7 giving they where to perform like the high end lenses we are used to now for DSLR would be so super expensive heavy and huge!
My Schneider APO Digitar 5.6/120mm features a 15cm image circle (6x6 qcm = 8,5cm diagonal) with a minimum resolution of 90 lines/mm. I paid 1465 Euro for a copy of that fabulous performer in Copal 0.
http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/en/photo-imaging/product-range/photo-lenses/products/large-format-lenses/digital-lenses/apo-digitar/db-apo-digitar-eng/?tx_curoproduktdb_pi1%5B4_id%5D=54&no_cache=1
Same optics sits in the TS lens for the Leics S System and the Phase One Twin brother. On the Road the Sinar body & bulk might be unpractical, but the price (7000 US$ at B&H) is very interesting:
https://www.phaseone.com/de-DE/Products/Camera-Systems/Lenses/Schneider-Kreuznach-120mm-TS.aspx
https://de.leica-camera.com/Fotografie/Leica-S/Leica-S-Objektive/TS-APO-Elmar-S-1-5,6-120-mm-ASPH
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Yes but that is One lens ;) Them you need a wide angle and so on,,,
Leica S are not real MF
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In terms of practical applications there isn't as much need for the larger medium formats as digital is higher quality per sensor area than film. The cost of making large sensors is disproportionally high. I think it is okay to call the new 44x33mm medium format if the terminology is agreed between different manufacturers then there is no misunderstanding among users either. Film users may protest (I used 6x7) but it doesn't seem likely that the larger formats of the film era will return in digital.
If I understand correctly what you mean, I am quite happy to agree that in the digital era, when sensors can be any size, categorical terms like "medium format" are obsolete. But I am not the one using the term: Fujifilm have chosen to hang the whole marketing of this camera on the claim that it is "medium format reinvented". They have done that for a reason, and the reason is not that "medium format" is quicker to type, or better understood, than "44x33". They are doing it because they expect to gain a marketing advantage - and they are probably right, based on the reaction to this camera and the Hasselblad version.
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Yes but that is One lens ;) Them you need a wide angle and so on,,,
Leica S are not real MF
You are right in the respect, that most of the following optics (with prices) are made for the smaller "digital medium" formats:
https://www.calumetphoto.de/product/Schneider-Apo-Digitar-N-5-6/150-Copal-0/SCN15056COP0DIG
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Addition. One of the lists with image circles for digital medium format:
https://captureintegration.com/image-circles/
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Using a Leica S (FPS) now and having shot the H5D (LS), I'd prefer leaf shutter so not much interest in this Fuji.
However, the V1D that Hasselblad is teasing us with - sign me up!
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V1D ... just looked it up. Interesting
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Medium format is well established as 56x56mm which was commonly cropped at the easel to 56x42mm (645). Large format started at 4x5" or 9x12cm.
Why do we call 36x24mm full format? Why not call 30x20mm full format. Why do we call 24x16mm APS-C. Chiefly what we need is a new Tower of Babel.
C-3PO
Anything shorter than 55mm on the long side is sub-medium format. These exist for the same reason that Nikon and others put 24x16mm image sensors in 35mm form factor SLR bodies: the cost of image sensors at the time. I remember one forum moderator who said Nikon would never make a full frame dSLR because of the cost of such a sensor.
OK, I said I'd settle for 53.9x40.4...
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I don't think we should be too concerned about what the formats were called in the film days.
The Hasselblad V1D looks cool, same for the X1D. Gothenburg in Sweden is just a few hours train ride from where I live. I think it's just amazing that they make cameras there. 8)
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The Hasselblad V1D looks cool, same for the X1D. Gothenburg in Sweden is just a few hours train ride from where I live. I think it's just amazing that they make cameras there. 8)
Considering the price of V1D or X1D, the difference of the traffic cost to Gotengurg, from where you live or from Tokyo, would be next to nothing. ;D
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Considering the price of V1D or X1D, the difference of the traffic cost to Gotengurg, from where you live or from Tokyo, would be next to nothing. ;D
Yes, definitely, but you have a quite a few more camera manufacturers in your neck of the woods, Akira, than I do.... :o
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Medium format is well established as 56x56mm which was commonly cropped at the easel to 56x42mm (645). Large format started at 4x5" or 9x12cm.
Well, any format that was cut from 120 size roll film was called medium format. 6x6 was not really any more established than 6x4,5 or 6x7, as far as I could tell. Similarly there were different sizes of large formats; 4x5, 5x7, 8x10, etc.
Why do we call 36x24mm full format?
When Canon first made the 1Ds they advertised it having a "35mm full frame sensor". The "35mm" was clearly present in the expression and people understood what it meant, it meant the sensor was the same size as a 35mm film frame. However, later people started to talk about full frame sensors and let out the format size indicator (35mm) which is kind of a silly omission. But often language use evolves in this way, the history is forgotten and terminology that is not really self-explaining sticks as common usage. As long as people understand what is being talked about, it's ok.
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Yes, 645, 6x6, 6x7 and 6x9 were commonly available in 120 roll cameras and backs. One would measure 55mm to 57mm. All were called medium format. I don't know of anything that was called medium format that was smaller.
Dave
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Yes, definitely, but you have a quite a few more camera manufacturers in your neck of the woods, Akira, than I do.... :o
You are right, Bjørn. Unfortunately, the location of the manufactures doesn't matter at all, so long as the camera is out of my reach. :o :o :o
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Funky but worth watching (maybe?) hands-on review on DigitalRev TV. You can listen to the shutter sound (really quiet).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgWoz-e8oZk
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An interview to Fuji rep posted on dpreview.com. Fuji confirmed that the sensor is NOT of the X-trans type.
https://www.dpreview.com/interviews/7988407692/interview-fujifilm-explains-the-gfx-50s-medium-format-mirrorless
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Curiously, we now have two mirrorless camera systems with sensors larger than FX (whether you call it "medium format" or not).
We also have many mirrorless camera systems with smaller than FX format, using 1", m4/3 and DX size sensors.
Yet the mirrorless FX/35mm segment is empty apart from Sony; I suppose you can also include Leica rangefinders. It is strange this format is unpopular with manufacturers.
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Curiously, we now have two mirrorless camera systems with sensors larger than FX (whether you call it "medium format" or not).
We also have many mirrorless camera systems with smaller than FX format, using 1", m4/3 and DX size sensors.
Yet the mirrorless FX/35mm segment is empty apart from Sony; I suppose you can also include Leica rangefinders. It is strange this format is unpopular with manufacturers.
There is also the Leica SL system with a 24x36mm sensor.
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Hasselblad say they have in ten days sold as many X1D as they had expected to sell in a year!
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Bjorn, since the firmware is apparently not ready for prime time it will be interesting to see when an actual client gets one in hand.
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Bjorn, since the firmware is apparently not ready for prime time it will be interesting to see when an actual client gets one in hand.
Also it will be interesting to see what they think about the new lenses for the X1D.
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Curiously, we now have two mirrorless camera systems with sensors larger than FX (whether you call it "medium format" or not).
We also have many mirrorless camera systems with smaller than FX format, using 1", m4/3 and DX size sensors.
Yet the mirrorless FX/35mm segment is empty apart from Sony; I suppose you can also include Leica rangefinders. It is strange this format is unpopular with manufacturers.
I suspect Canon/Nikon are waiting to introduce a FF mirroreless because they have a lot to lose if they screw it up, whereas Sony does not.
Personally I'm waiting rather impatiently for Nikon to make a FF mirrorless, in whatever mount. In the mean time my $$ have gone to Sony, despite the immaturity of their bodies, rather than Nikon.
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I suspect Canon/Nikon are waiting to introduce a FF mirroreless because they have a lot to lose if they screw it up, whereas Sony does not.
This is my thinking as well...always has been. Sony is the beta tester for Nikon/Canon.
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I don't think Sony is a "beta tester" for anyone but themselves, in any sense of the word. The user interfaces of the various brands are too different for that. Canon's beta version is called EOS M5. Canon doesn't even use Sony sensors... Nikon should rather be looking at Fujifilm than at Sony, as Fujifilm more closely represents and emulates Nikon's original core values w.r.t. user experience.
Each manufacturer has to find their own path to mirrorless or be left behind.
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I think that it is more a case of Nikon and Canon waiting to see how many arrows the pioneers get in the back. In the meantime the Canon M and Nikon 1 scouts can be deployed without too much damage being done to the main game which is to milk a well established and proven technology base in terms of the DSLR and its now highly refined mirror boxes. When the trail looks less dangerous, they will then do away with the mirror boxes and start their mirrorless wagons rolling - maybe in time for the D6 or the D7?.
This is my thinking as well...always has been. Sony is the beta tester for Nikon/Canon.
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Well, Canon isn't really waiting for anything, they have EOS M, M2, M3 and now M5. In my opinion FX is fine as an expensive high end format but for most, APS-C is perfect in terms of quality, versatility, and reasonable size of the whole kit. Canon finally put their dual pixel AF into the M5, I would expect it to sell like hot cakes.
Nikon chose a smaller format (CX) and may make DX or FX in the future. But they all are active in finding new markets. Fuji probably chose a larger than FX format in order to avoid direct competition with Sony, Nikon and Canon and to differentiate their lineups more; FX and DX are not that far from each other. Their small medium format and DX definitely are different in sensor size.
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Apparently Canon is more into cine/video domain for their EF mount lineup, which are mirrorless anyway.
When Nikon introduced Nikon 1, I thought the 1" sensor would be rather suitable for the still/video hybrid cameras than any larger format. Incidentally or not, the 1" sensor is almost the same size as the 16mm cine format. As it turned out, Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and Canon are making 1" sensor cameras. That said, my wild hunch tells that Nikon is going to obsolete the Nikon 1 series and move to the fixed lens models.
Fuji rep said that the 135 format was too close to APS-C, so they decided to jump up to the MF.
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Sony is the beta tester for Nikon/Canon.
Clarification for better accuracy: I hope that Nikon is watching and learning from what all the higher-end mirrorless manufacturers are doing, and, in effect, allowing companies like Sony and Fuji to be unwitting beta testers.
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Guess who can celebrate 100 years anniversary in 2017,,, Guess what is high on the to do list,,, According to several representatives present at Photokina,,,
Yes they are watching the first movers and all the flack they are receiving,,, They want to be absolutely sure they get it right the first time around!
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Guess who can celebrate 100 years anniversary in 2017,,, Guess what is high on the to do list,,, According to several representatives present at Photokina,,,
Yes they are watching the first movers and all the flack they are receiving,,, They want to be absolutely sure they get it right the first time around!
Shhhh...don't tell anyone!