NikonGear'23

Images => Life, the Universe & Everything Else => Topic started by: Ron Scubadiver on December 25, 2015, 01:34:02

Title: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 25, 2015, 01:34:02
Around here I am known for certain things.  For example, I don't think the answer is having the ultimate in gear.  It has to be good, but not great.  I like taking street shots with attractive people in them.

Does a street photographer have to live in New York City?  A lot of great photography comes from there.  Not just grab/candid street photography, but finding subjects on the street and getting them to cooperate.  I manage to do that at certain events in Houston, but have not yet figured out how to do it on an every day basis. 

Travel helps.  Being in an unfamiliar place seems to stimulate one's creative juices.  I travel to the point of distraction.  My next misadventure will literally take me to the end of the earth, want to guess where?

OK, how do you get there.  Is it location, or something else?  There are many paths to photographic fulfillment.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: golunvolo on December 25, 2015, 01:58:35
Finisterre? Literaly means "the end of the earth" and it is located in north-east Spain.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on December 25, 2015, 02:02:08
Such location names are found many places. UK: Land's End. Norway: Verdens Ende (literally: The End of the World). Certainly elsewhere too.

To Ron's question : I don't think one becomes more creative by visiting an unknown part of the world.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: John Geerts on December 25, 2015, 02:26:12
I agree.  The Tilburg-dutch artist and philosopher Kees Mandos said:  'Als ge 't hier nie ziet, ziede 't daor ook nie' which means roughly translated 'if you don't see it here (your own town) you won't see it there.'

Perhaps its helpful to have a vision or a goal about what you really want to document or shoot. Gear and shooting a lot are just tools and skill leading to the path were you want to go.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Akira on December 25, 2015, 02:35:56
Maybe this comparison would offer some food for thoughts:

The images from the top of the Mt. Everest or any unexplored or unreachable places look just awesome.  These images were taken by the photographers who risked their lives just go to such places, which alone is awesome and respectful enough.

On the other hand, people like Henri Cartier-Bresson, Robert Doisneau, Vivian Maier etc. were essentially shooting snaps in the city they lived.  There is nothing for special effort to live in their native, familiar cities.  Then, are their images less awesome or respectable than the images by those great explorers?  I think the answer is obvious, even though Paris could be as stimulating and photogenic as New York.

Keeping fresh, flexible and inspired mind should be the key.

I took this word by Confucius as my personal motto: "The eye is blind if the mind is absent."
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Akira on December 25, 2015, 02:48:19
I've found the meet up with fellow photographers of NG or FZ invaluable exactly in this context, in addition to nurturing friendship.

We visit the same place, we quite often see the same things there and we feel the same atmosphere.  Nevertheless, our resulted images were totally different, even more different than different equipments would deliver.  Of course, this is easy to expect, but the sense of re-assurance has a big impact on your creative mind.

In short, the meet-up is great food of thoughts and source of inspiration.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 25, 2015, 03:20:45

To Ron's question : I don't think one becomes more creative by visiting an unknown part of the world.

I wasn't thinking that visiting an unknown part of the world would make me more creative.  It is more like just getting away and having different surroundings helps to free the mind.  Hardly anything is unknown today.  Houston has its own difficulties.  The kind of street photography associated with pedestrian friendly cities isn't available here because Houston is car bound.  Areas of high population density are usually enclosed private property with prohibitions on photography.  Until recently we had a law here making it a felony sex crime to take a photograph of a pretty girl without her consent.  Not every photograph would qualify, but you never knew how it would be applied.  Our courts invalidated that law, finally, but it took a long time.

However, some of the most interesting photos I have are of people, not so much within the city, but from nearby areas.  Sometimes when you don't have much to work with it can force you to work harder.

Where I am going next month does not have a name suggesting its remoteness, to the best of my knowledge.  I expect to have fun, but don't know if the shooting will be wonderful or not.

Perhaps I should drive down the Gulf Coast from New Orleans to Tampa,  Jimmy Buffet land. 
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Tristin on December 25, 2015, 04:57:08
I agree with the others, new places won't improve your photography.  Scenes of grandeur are easier to make pleasing images of, sure, but that's not *you* getting better. 

My advice is to be more critical of your work.  Up your standards.  Look at your images, consider what would have improved them, then scrap those that aren't up to the new standard you want to set for yourself.

Since you enjoy photographing beautiful women, have you considered trying out a studio lighting setup and shooting models?  If you want to stay in the streets, I would suggest getting more intimate photographs.  Something like a 180mm f/2.8 or 200mm f/4 are relatively cheap in manual form, and can give you reach combined with relatively compact size.  I wouldn't try shooting intimate street pictures of women with anything less than 135mm probably, and definitely not with a bulky zoom.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Fons Baerken on December 25, 2015, 07:38:44
It is often in the unexpected, uncalculated and very much overlooked moment, since we're mostly preoccupied and caught in a wave of thoughts and projections.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: schwett on December 25, 2015, 09:09:16
I think you need to have a point of view or idea that can be expressed through the image. If the ideas you're interested in exploring or expressing are about people, then you probably need to be somewhere with people. If you're fascinated by some aspect of nature, say some kind of symbiosis, it will be tough to get inspired without access to nature.

personally, i'm moved by a lot of things - modern or ancient architecture, light, landscapes, wildlife, people.... so I travel to places which have those things, or I seek them out at home. when inspiration is lacking, I do find the focus of a new place and the more intensive concentration that getting "away" allows to be useful.

to ron's point about Houston, as a professional architect and amateur photographer, I'm not inspired by america's car-centric cities. they have many virtues, but not for me, so I don't really seek them out for photography or other purposes. I suppose I'd ask an avid photographer who lived in Houston or San Jose or Tampa or Atlanta whether there was some other interesting or visually compelling aspect of the place that inspired photographic exploration?
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: rosko on December 25, 2015, 11:55:10
is located in north-east Spain.

I would rather say north-west...!  ;)

There is one too in France : le Finistère, in Brittany.

But not as further as the Spanish one. Both Celtic areas.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: golunvolo on December 25, 2015, 12:04:06
I would rather say north-west...!  ;)

There is one too in France : le Finistère, in Brittany.

But not as further as the Spanish one. Both Celtic areas.

  Yes, nort-west, my mistake.  ::)
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Lars Hansen on December 25, 2015, 13:08:21
I wasn't thinking that visiting an unknown part of the world would make me more creative.  It is more like just getting away and having different surroundings helps to free the mind. 
 

[/quote]
I took this word by Confucius as my personal motto: "The eye is blind if the mind is absent."

It is often in the unexpected, uncalculated and very much overlooked moment, since we're mostly preoccupied and caught in a wave of thoughts and projections.

when inspiration is lacking, I do find the focus of a new place and the more intensive concentration that getting "away" allows to be useful.

Taking my camera to unknown places inspires me and I do feel more focused and present. And my mind takes a good rest as well. Even in the nearest city if it's unknown to me or the next landscape around the corner. I do not feel the same immediate inspiration in known surroundings - instead the inspiration is more about exploring known places/things/situations under different conditions: light, new angles, events etc. I can't say what results in best photography or what is the most creative process but taking my camera to new places is where I feel most present and inspired.         
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Bruno Schroder on December 25, 2015, 13:09:28
Travelling to a destination is one thing but special events are very interesting too. For your kind of photography, I think you should absolutely be in Avignon for the day before and the day of the opening of the festival. Not that the other days are uninteresting but as the festival is in French, it can get boring fast if you don't speak the language :).

At that time in Avignon, it is usually sunny and warm and the thousands of actors, actresses, theatres, musicians, are promoting their plays in the street, willing to be photographed.

Another event, of a very different kind, is the 24 hours bike race of Louvain-La-Neuve in Belgium end of October ... early November with 40.000 university students flooding the city for the second largest beer drinking event of Europe after the Oktober Feesten. They're not dressed to be attractive and the weather can be very rainy but it is street photography as you've probably never seen it. The city itself is car free and could be very interesting on a sunny day in May ... June..

BTW, if someone knows about similar opportunities elsewhere ...
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: IAW1965 on December 25, 2015, 15:58:37
When I first got my D300 I spent a lot of time and money traveling around Britain in an effort to capture classic Landscape views.  After five weeks crisscrossing England to capture Bluebells I was forced to evaluate why I was failing.  To often I was turning up hoping that just by following the steps of others I'd seen images from that I liked and falling short because I didn't understand the light and topography.

Then I decide to focus on a local landscape and understand it's light and points of view over the next two years I started to understand what to expect where and when dependent on season and weather.  Over this time I also mastered the controls and upgraded to a D3x. Now I can pick up a camera and find something worthy of photographing over the estate even when it is grey and overcast.

I decided that I would carry a camera when doing the day job and record what I see on my travels over familiar ground.  Most times I can find something of interest.  I am also engaged on three long term projects that have forced me to educate myself and better plan visits to photograph.

I would say that it's about observing things better you can do so as part of a "safari" or recording what is your everyday life. If you undertake a "safari" you will usually have a "guide" who knows the landscape to insure that you come away with something of value.  I guess what I am trying to say is that I have come to accept that my work can be good but don't expect every image to be exceptional. 
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Airy on December 25, 2015, 23:31:36
Around here I am known for certain things.  For example, I don't think the answer is having the ultimate in gear. It has to be good, but not great.

Yes, any lens rated 4-5 in Naturfotograef will do. That includes good as well as great. BTW those "subjective" ratings have proven more useful (to me) than any dxo-style report where you have to endlessly wheigh the pros and cons.

That being said, you really should try the 300 PF. It is good if not great, rather inconspicuous (if you don't mount the shade) and is a sweeeet long distance portrait lens.

I like taking street shots with attractive people in them.

Please go on. We're all grateful for that.

Travel helps.  Being in an unfamiliar place seems to stimulate one's creative juices.  I travel to the point of distraction.

Right. The other way is to stay home and concentrate until you see things another way, but that is just as time-consuming, albeit less expensive. And i is just as rewarding, but certainly less fun.

Yet another way is to meet a third party kicking you out of your routine.

There are many paths to photographic fulfillment.

That's why our paths inevitably cross here.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Almass on December 26, 2015, 00:56:15
Please define what is a "Great Photograph"


Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: black_bird_blue on December 26, 2015, 05:43:24
I'm with Almass here. The process looks like this to me:

1) Know what "really great photographs" are
2) Compare one's pictures to them
3) Understand the difference/gap
4) Close the gap

If one doesn't know what great photographs are, the process will never work except on some kind of lottery basis.

Questions I sometimes use for step 1:

1) Does it need no explanation?
    1a) If it needs an explanation, does it somehow educate/edify the viewer?
2) Does it produce an immediate emotional response of some kind?
    2a) Does it delight (or otherwise move) the people in it?
3) Is it technically adequate?
4) Will it cause other photographers to be curious about how it was done?
5) Was it luck or willpower that got the image?

These aren't simultaneous criteria, but I would like to think that at least, say, two are necessary to lift an image out of the mundane.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 26, 2015, 13:17:57
I agree.  The Tilburg-dutch artist and philosopher Kees Mandos said:  'Als ge 't hier nie ziet, ziede 't daor ook nie' which means roughly translated 'if you don't see it here (your own town) you won't see it there.'

Noone can shoot what he cannot see. That is why you can send 10 photographers into the same event or house or forest and very rarely come up with similar results.

Only if you pack photographers too close together certain characters try to copycat the others.

***

That is why I like to be alone while shooting: undisturbed vision.

***

Or I intentionally "produce" a picture with others. Then a common visualisation is the goal. I think of the project I did with our group in the South Germany Workshop with Bjørn a while ago. Hi Simone, Hi Chris, Hi Gunter...

***

In regular conditions I let myself be impressed by what I see, what I discover and try to make my vision preceptible to others. That is the goal.

Somethimes it works out nicely, sometimes not. That is the learning curve: flat sometimes, steep sometimes.

I do not see another way in PRACTICE.

***

Then there is a great teaching which is:

You want to change something small? Then go change the way you DO things
You aspire a big change? Then change the way you SEE things

***

Visit Museums, Buy catalogs, visit trade fairs and exhibitions, go consciously to places without bringing a camera and change your relationship to the the place. Then bring a camera the second time you go there.

***

To sum up my rant on the opening question: SEEING is non technical. SEENING is about personality, character and relationship to oneself and all other things and beings.

***

PS: For me a great photo is a photo that:

a) matches my original vision (i.e. I reached my goal)

b) happens to cause the desired effect in the people viewing the picture (salvinating people in the case of my food shots)
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 26, 2015, 18:29:24
Please define what is a "Great Photograph"

That is the question.  As Justice Stewart said about pornography "I know it when I see it."

Great photography engages the viewer in a special way.  It may be emotional or intellectual, positive or negative, complete or incomplete.  The possibilities are endless.  That is why we are photographers.

As for travel vs stay at home I try to get the most out of each one.  There is some blurring as my many trips to Hawaii tend to give it a sense of familiarity.  So, I try to do something different each time.  At home I took a lot of photos in art galleries, but eventually found the same subjects repeating too often.  One must move on.  Since acquiring my 200-500 I am getting to know the local bird population.  There are all sorts of subject matter groups I have sampled and need to return to in depth.

The 200-500 will get a workout where I am going.  It is not a tame place.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Les Olson on December 26, 2015, 18:53:03
John Szarkowski said "It isn't what a picture is of, it is what it is about".  Or as someone else to whom I apologise for forgetting their name said, "There is a difference between a photograph of something interesting, and an interesting photograph". 

Going somewhere else gives you a lot more things to take pictures of, but it makes it less likely the photographs will be about anything - on the contrary: you are far more likely to have something interesting to say about places you know well. 

The answer to the question of how you make really good photographs is you imagine them, then you either set them up or find them.  Then you don't even have to be able to see: John Dugdale is blind (http://vagazine.com/blog/2013/09/14/john-dugdale-master-photographer/)

Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 26, 2015, 19:30:59
Les: I never go out to find a vision I created at home.

 I previsualize while immersing into the scene.

Sometimes I am on a longer project an search for scenes that
might fit into that project. See food. See organs. See searching
for certain architectural features. This is but more a collector
work.

The real motivation is always to show what I see to others
or to recreate a feeling using the medium.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Fons Baerken on December 26, 2015, 22:29:16
why do people miss the point when they start to intellectualize :o
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: black_bird_blue on December 27, 2015, 04:02:56
why do people miss the point when they start to intellectualize :o

How do you know they do so?
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 27, 2015, 04:35:38
why do people miss the point when they start to intellectualize :o

I believe I know exactly what Fons is saying. 
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 27, 2015, 05:36:01
Deleted
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: black_bird_blue on December 27, 2015, 06:22:53
I believe I know exactly what Fons is saying.

I believe I do, too. We could compare beliefs, perhaps. After you?
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 27, 2015, 13:49:54
I believe I do, too. We could compare beliefs, perhaps. After you?

I believe Fons does not like the discussion and therefore left
a destructive comment to discourage the participants which
I consider to be very impolite.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on December 27, 2015, 13:55:38
Let people express directly their sentiments. We should not be interpreters.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Almass on December 27, 2015, 14:18:21
I believe I know exactly what Fons is saying.

I have no idea what Fons is on about.

What I know is that I was only invited yesterday for a visit at Somerset House for this Tuesday to view an exhibition of Saul Leiter famous and pioneering New York Street Photography......afterwards I am having Jamón ibérico for lunch on the Strand.....

"Saul Leiter, who has died aged 89, was one of the quiet men of American photography. A pioneer of colour, he remained relatively unsung until he was rediscovered by curators and critics in his early 80s. Even then, Leiter was reluctant to accept the belated praise heaped upon him. "What makes anyone think that I'm any good?" he asked Tomas Leach, who directed........"

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2013/nov/29/saul-leiter

http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/postscript-saul-leiter-1923-2013

Ron, you being a SP par excellence, probably you know about Saul Leiter and if you don't, he is right up your street.

P.S. I don't think we are allowed to take pics of Saul Leiter images at his exhibition....but will try.

And that is a Great picture of a deferred lunch pleasure 8)






(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Duke_1/Ham%202_zpsh2rvdvi9.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 27, 2015, 15:24:52

Ron, you being a SP par excellence, probably you know about Saul Leiter and if you don't, he is right up your street.

Thank you for the compliment.  This the first I heard of him.  Many of his images are available on the web.  It is difficult to make color work for you rather than against you in street photography, but he does just that.  It amuses me that he started out to be a rabbi.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 27, 2015, 20:48:45

That being said, you really should try the 300 PF. It is good if not great, rather inconspicuous (if you don't mount the shade) and is a sweeeet long distance portrait lens.


You are the second person here to mention that lens to me.  I mainly shot my 70-300 all the way at 300 in Hawaii, and I used it when the 200-500 was either too heavy (long walks) or too obvious.  I think it would work great and easily blow the 70-300 away.  This will have to come after a 20 f/1.8.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Gary on December 28, 2015, 17:21:06
To your OP:

1) Shoot;
2) Shoot some more:
3) At the end of the day when you think you're done shooting ... Shoot again.

Then, self-critique the hell out of your images.  Be you own worst critic.  Always look for improvements to be made in your images.  Find a mentor that will kick your a$$. Use a camera/lens until you have harmonized with said camera/lens. Use the camera until you can operate it in the dark and the camera is an extension of your hands. Use your lenses until they are an extension of your eyes. Until you know the FOV and DOF without having to mount the lens. Previsualize the image you desire to capture in your minds eye, then reflect that image with camera position, lens choice and settings.  The less post manipulation you need to make to attain your previsualized image, the better your are becoming.

After the above, shoot for the next level ... Crop only in the camera. If you need to crop in post to straighten a horizon or eliminate distractions or any reason ... then the image gets dumped.

Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 28, 2015, 23:41:48
Thank you Gary.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 29, 2015, 23:31:42
To your OP:

1) Shoot;
2) Shoot some more:
3) At the end of the day when you think you're done shooting ... Shoot again.

Then, self-critique the hell out of your images.  Be you own worst critic.  Always look for improvements to be made in your images.  Find a mentor that will kick your a$$. Use a camera/lens until you have harmonized with said camera/lens. Use the camera until you can operate it in the dark and the camera is an extension of your hands. Use your lenses until they are an extension of your eyes. Until you know the FOV and DOF without having to mount the lens. Previsualize the image you desire to capture in your minds eye, then reflect that image with camera position, lens choice and settings.  The less post manipulation you need to make to attain your previsualized image, the better your are becoming.

After the above, shoot for the next level ... Crop only in the camera. If you need to crop in post to straighten a horizon or eliminate distractions or any reason ... then the image gets dumped.

Your 3 steps are nearly what HCB said, except #3 was only show the good ones.  I think for those of us who shoot in a journalistic mode cropping, straightening horizons and other fixes are necessary.  Things happen too fast.  However, experience tends to eliminate bad horizons and various other mistakes.  The fewer the better.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 29, 2015, 23:58:50
Your 3 steps are nearly what HCB said, except #3 was only show the good ones. 

That is the thing I always hear. To no avail. I get angry hearing that nonsense again. Why?

How do you ever know what the good ones are?
To masterly judge something you have to be a master yourself.

Will you let the public decide what the good ones are?
Or will you decide for yourself?
So will you be a copycat or will you produce genuine art up to your own builtin limit (which can be very low at times)?
Is art teachable?
Is it a question of hours put in, of diligence or is it talent whatever talent might be?

***

I feel in the end it is understanding on a very dep level what has been done so far and what the crowd is ready to accept next. Every photo you take with ambition either extends what has been achieved so far or it is for the bin...

My (angry) two cents.

***

I declare that I took Bjørn word "to be free to express my sentiment"

#2022
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Gary on December 30, 2015, 00:11:24
Your 3 steps are nearly what HCB said, except #3 was only show the good ones.  I think for those of us who shoot in a journalistic mode cropping, straightening horizons and other fixes are necessary.  Things happen too fast.  However, experience tends to eliminate bad horizons and various other mistakes.  The fewer the better.

As a former photojournalist, I disagree. I used to crop 100% in the camera when I worked for a major market daily newspaper and shooting film. With sufficient practice and dedication, I think most photographers can attain that level of proficiency. Saying that because you shoot in a photojournalistic manner allows for cropping is an excuse for setting the bar low ... an excuse not to be self-critical ... is an excuse so accept flaws while shooting ... which could be corrected in the field.

For a period of time, I only printed full frame on all my assignments, no cropping, if a horizon was off, if the framing was off ... the photo was dumped.

Some old samples:
(http://www.garyayala.com/Photography/On-Broadway-1/i-wv5GmJ9/2/O/On%20Broadway-9%20-%20W.jpg)

(http://www.garyayala.com/Photography/Black-Whites/i-wmL5B6B/1/O/G-Peck-UE.jpg)

(http://www.garyayala.com/Photography/Black-Whites/i-xjWWNM3/0/O/Kids-in-Placentia-2-HP.jpg)

I hope to attain that level of skill, discipline and self-critiquing again.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 30, 2015, 00:13:28
thank you Gary.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 30, 2015, 02:49:20
As a former photojournalist, I disagree. I used to crop 100% in the camera when I worked for a major market daily newspaper and shooting film. With sufficient practice and dedication, I think most photographers can attain that level of proficiency. Saying that because you shoot in a photojournalistic manner allows for cropping is an excuse for setting the bar low ... an excuse not to be self-critical ... is an excuse so accept flaws while shooting ... which could be corrected in the field.

For a period of time, I only printed full frame on all my assignments, no cropping, if a horizon was off, if the framing was off ... the photo was dumped.

I hope to attain that level of skill, discipline and self-critiquing again.

I guess that I will have to put my superman suit on...  The way I look at it is if we have these tools, use them.  Even when we only had film, cropping and many other adjustments were fundamental.  I make photographs, nobody pays me for them, so I should have a bit of room to do it my way.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Gary on December 30, 2015, 05:10:19
I guess that I will have to put my superman suit on...  The way I look at it is if we have these tools, use them.  Even when we only had film, cropping and many other adjustments were fundamental.  I make photographs, nobody pays me for them, so I should have a bit of room to do it my way.

You can call them "tools" or you can call them "crutches" ...

Many children use training wheels to learn how to ride. After a while the rider removes the training wheels because they have mastered a certain level of competency.

I am just addressing your title.  We are all different and we all learn differently.  I am giving you the lessons that allowed me to attain a high level of success as a photojournalist for major market newspapers and wire service.

I am very competitive and I embrace the challenge of photography.  For me the challenge is to strive to capture the exceptional image on every assignment and to outshoot the competition.  Those twin tenets are what drive me and my photography.  It isn't about being paid.  It isn't about doing it my way. It isn't about donning a Superman suit.  It is about doing the best job one can ... it is about shooting better today by improving upon how you shot yesterday ... it is about tossing the crutches away and moving up the learning curve of exceptional photography.

Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Anthony on December 30, 2015, 10:45:07
Gary, I find your points very compelling.

Shooting slides for projection was a very good training in the olden days!

I am interested in your comment that you printed only the full frame "for a time".  What were the factors that caused you to move away from this approach?
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 30, 2015, 14:26:23
nt
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Hermann on December 30, 2015, 14:27:06
Shooting slides for projection was a very good training in the olden days!

It certainly was. I only shot slides for many years, first Kondachrome, later Velvia, before I lost my interest in photography some 15 years ago. Now, that I started again, I find I still prefer to find a framing where I don't have to crop. Not using zooms if possible actually helps me, I find. It means I have to use my feet to find the best angle anyway ... :-)

Hermann

Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 30, 2015, 16:11:31
You can call them "tools" or you can call them "crutches" ...

Many children use training wheels to learn how to ride. After a while the rider removes the training wheels because they have mastered a certain level of competency.

I am just addressing your title.  We are all different and we all learn differently.  I am giving you the lessons that allowed me to attain a high level of success as a photojournalist for major market newspapers and wire service.

I am very competitive and I embrace the challenge of photography.  For me the challenge is to strive to capture the exceptional image on every assignment and to outshoot the competition.  Those twin tenets are what drive me and my photography.  It isn't about being paid.  It isn't about doing it my way. It isn't about donning a Superman suit.  It is about doing the best job one can ... it is about shooting better today by improving upon how you shot yesterday ... it is about tossing the crutches away and moving up the learning curve of exceptional photography.

Gary, you are insulting a lot of photographers with the "crutches" analogy.  You said your bit about not cropping, and I disagreed.  What you wrote above adds nothing to the discussion and leaves a bad taste.  As for training wheels, they are not used anymore.  If everyone followed your advice a lot of great photography would have been pitched and most photographers would have given up in frustration.  I know a retired commercial photographer of some note who advocates shooting wider than necessary to allow fine tuning later.  There are many different schools of thought.  You don't have to act like yours is the only one and you don't have to exaggerate to make a point.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Fons Baerken on December 30, 2015, 16:20:57
...to become a better photographer stay away from forums and their convenient opinions and do it your own way...
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: black_bird_blue on December 30, 2015, 16:35:16
A different, yet related approach to the one espoused earlier, is advocated here (http://www.bbc.com/news/in-pictures-35026932).

It basically boils down to "shoot lots, work out what you like, get better, repeat".

The debate about whether to get it right "in-camera" or not will run and run. It feels to me like a false dichotomy. It never does any harm to get the picture "as right as possible" in camera, but really, can the viewer tell whether a photograph was taken level or levelled slightly in post? I think not, unless the film border is included in the image.

That seems like a generic test to me - "can the viewer tell?" Of course another question is "does the viewer care?" For horizons, they need to be either properly level or dramatically tilted - timid tilting just looks like the error it is. So for horizons, they need to be right but it doesn't matter whether they were right in camera or not - to me at least. One can examine other errors - composition, focus, exposure, colour - on the same basis.

I take Gary's comments as urging me not to settle for mediocrity when I could do better, and bravo - it's well said.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: black_bird_blue on December 30, 2015, 16:42:54
...to become a better photographer stay away from forums and their convenient opinions and do it your own way...

I believe this is genuinely an error of thought.

We as humans are different form other animals mainly because each human has a store of knowledge that is greater than one lifetime's learning. To insist on learning everything for oneself from scratch is to run out of time in life.

Internet fora are notorious for their poor signal-to-noise ratio, so perhaps better advice is to think critically about the content. And sometimes entering a discussion is a good way to work out what one really thinks.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Fons Baerken on December 30, 2015, 16:43:46
to some
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Gary on December 30, 2015, 17:02:24
Gary, I find your points very compelling.

Shooting slides for projection was a very good training in the olden days!

I am interested in your comment that you printed only the full frame "for a time".  What were the factors that caused you to move away from this approach?

Anthony-

I didn't move away from the approach, the approach moved away from me.  When I married and had children, I sorta hung up my cameras and my skill level diminished significantly. My children have all left the nest and I am working to get my skill level (consistency) back to my pro level.  Back in 2006, when I purchased a 20D, my passion for photography re-ignited, I am working toward attaining my old skill level.  For me, it is all about Time Behind the Viewfinder.

Getting it right in the camera, again for me, took a serious and conscience effort and a ton of wasted film. Then and now I shoot a lot. Film was free and my cameras had motors ... so I wasted a lot of film. My keeper rate was 1:36. This wasn't landscape, where you had time to setup your tripod or commercial work, where you can take a test shot with Polaroid film and readjust your lighting.  Consequently, my framing required all the mental power I could muster as often framing/composition was on the fly. For me, for how I shoot and what I shoot, speed is essential (which is why news photogs often shoot with two cameras). As I approach the scene/subject I am previsualizing the final photo and making decisions on lens and camera position before looking through the viewfinder. Back then, when the camera was up to my eye, the camera settings were adjusted ... sorta in the background, semi-conscientiously and I focused all my conscientious mental power on the subject (composition, lighting, anticipation of action).  Harmonizing with your equipment, being able to instantly and semi-automatically adjust your settings and lens to reflect a previsualized image, is an essential skill for a photojournalist.  That all come down to time behind the viewfinder.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on December 30, 2015, 17:03:11
Due to the characteristics of my eye sight, I always end up with horizon tilted -1.5 degrees. Most occasions don't necessitate any correction, but for the ones which do, I never hesitate performing the required adjustment. In the days of film, that entailed tilting the slide inside the mount or printing with the negative twisted slightly to correct. Now, I have a PS Action to arrive at the same solution.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 30, 2015, 17:12:13
In the beginning one should learn the rules and follow them.  Greatness requires the rules be broken, but gracefully.  I believe many truly great photographers have done things their own way.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Gary on December 30, 2015, 17:32:35
Gary, you are insulting a lot of photographers with the "crutches" analogy.  You said your bit about not cropping, and I disagreed.  What you wrote above adds nothing to the discussion and leaves a bad taste.  As for training wheels, they are not used anymore.  If everyone followed your advice a lot of great photography would have been pitched and most photographers would have given up in frustration.  I know a retired commercial photographer of some note who advocates shooting wider than necessary to allow fine tuning later.  There are many different schools of thought.  You don't have to act like yours is the only one and you don't have to exaggerate to make a point.

You are taking things personal.  I attempted to qualify my statements with phrases of "we all learn differently" and "we all see differently". I am direct, I am competitive that is how I approach life and photography. I think shooting for post processing as opposed to shooting for the capture of a previsualized image seriously limits the photographers growth. Yes, there are many schools of thought, which is why I qualify my statements with "for me" and with "for how I shoot and what I shoot". 

"If everyone followed your advice a lot of great photography would have been pitched and most photographers would have given up in frustration." I don't believe this to be true at all. I additionally think that if others were to follow my advise, and challenge themselves to work harder and get it right in the camera ... I think we'd have significantly better photographs in this world. I think more photographers would metaphorically be running with their photography, breaking the four minute mile, than hobbling along on crutches.

I never said, nor would I ever say that my way is the only way.

I do apologize for insulting you, I never realized that your title of "How do you make really great photographs?" had a caveat restricting my experiences.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Gary on December 30, 2015, 17:34:08
....
I take Gary's comments as urging me not to settle for mediocrity when I could do better, and bravo - it's well said.

^^^^ This is the primary intent and thrust of my remarks.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Gary on December 30, 2015, 17:43:22
A different, yet related approach to the one espoused earlier, is advocated here (http://www.bbc.com/news/in-pictures-35026932).

It basically boils down to "shoot lots, work out what you like, get better, repeat".

The debate about whether to get it right "in-camera" or not will run and run. It feels to me like a false dichotomy. It never does any harm to get the picture "as right as possible" in camera, but really, can the viewer tell whether a photograph was taken level or levelled slightly in post? I think not, unless the film border is included in the image.

That seems like a generic test to me - "can the viewer tell?" Of course another question is "does the viewer care?" For horizons, they need to be either properly level or dramatically tilted - timid tilting just looks like the error it is. So for horizons, they need to be right but it doesn't matter whether they were right in camera or not - to me at least. One can examine other errors - composition, focus, exposure, colour - on the same basis.

I take Gary's comments as urging me not to settle for mediocrity when I could do better, and bravo - it's well said.

Damien, for me (qualifier), it not about how others view my images or what they think ... it is about me knowing/caring about how I ended up with the final image. (I've been removing the black, filed out negative carrier, Henri Cartier-Bresson, borders from my posted old photographs because I now find the borders self-aggrandizing and pompous.  For me, I realize that in the bottom line isn't telling/showing others that I got it right in he camera, the bottom line is just to get it right in he camera and that only I need to know that.)
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Gary on December 30, 2015, 17:44:25
Due to the characteristics of my eye sight, I always end up with horizon tilted -1.5 degrees. Most occasions don't necessitate any correction, but for the ones which do, I never hesitate performing the required adjustment. In the days of film, that entailed tilting the slide inside the mount or printing with the negative twisted slightly to correct. Now, I have a PS Action to arrive at the same solution.

There are always exceptions.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 30, 2015, 17:58:09
I do apologize for insulting you, I never realized that your title of "How do you make really great photographs?" had a caveat restricting my experiences.

I am not wasting any more time arguing with you because you enjoy creating arguments too much. 
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 30, 2015, 19:58:43
Gray. Confess: you raise the bar very high for yourself and for others.

Ambition is a good thing.

Interesting noone tried to answer my questions, although they are really tough and philosophically sound.

It is a scientifically proven fact that the skills required to masterly judge a work are nearly the same skills
required to create such a work. Same goes for the other questions.

pls reconsider.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 30, 2015, 20:10:15
It certainly was. I only shot slides for many years, first Kondachrome, later Velvia, before I lost my interest in photography some 15 years ago. Now, that I started again, I find I still prefer to find a framing where I don't have to crop. Not using zooms if possible actually helps me, I find. It means I have to use my feet to find the best angle anyway ... :-)
Hermann

Welcome Hermann. I was a slide shooter from 1983 till 2004. First Agfa then Sensia.

Framing is still my goal and the perfect JPEG.

BUT. As I got better in Post Production I found the calibrated RAW gives me so much better tones
that I prefer the RAW currently.

Framing is always my goal but I do not always succeed.

Frank
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Anthony on December 30, 2015, 21:44:18
Anthony-

I didn't move away from the approach, the approach moved away from me.  When I married and had children, I sorta hung up my cameras and my skill level diminished significantly. My children have all left the nest and I am working to get my skill level (consistency) back to my pro level.  Back in 2006, when I purchased a 20D, my passion for photography re-ignited, I am working toward attaining my old skill level.  For me, it is all about Time Behind the Viewfinder.

Getting it right in the camera, again for me, took a serious and conscience effort and a ton of wasted film. Then and now I shoot a lot. Film was free and my cameras had motors ... so I wasted a lot of film. My keeper rate was 1:36. This wasn't landscape, where you had time to setup your tripod or commercial work, where you can take a test shot with Polaroid film and readjust your lighting.  Consequently, my framing required all the mental power I could muster as often framing/composition was on the fly. For me, for how I shoot and what I shoot, speed is essential (which is why news photogs often shoot with two cameras). As I approach the scene/subject I am previsualizing the final photo and making decisions on lens and camera position before looking through the viewfinder. Back then, when the camera was up to my eye, the camera settings were adjusted ... sorta in the background, semi-conscientiously and I focused all my conscientious mental power on the subject (composition, lighting, anticipation of action).  Harmonizing with your equipment, being able to instantly and semi-automatically adjust your settings and lens to reflect a previsualized image, is an essential skill for a photojournalist.  That all come down to time behind the viewfinder.
Thanks, Gary, all this makes sense.

I respect a photographer who does the most he or she can to get the image right in camera, rather than shooting lazily and thinking "I will sort it out on the computer".  Not only is this a higher level of craft, it also tends to achieve a better overall result.

In the digital era, getting the image right in camera is in some ways more difficult, it becomes more of a matter of envisioning the result to be achieved by a combination of camera and computer.  This is a long way from fixing a substandard capture in pp.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Anthony on December 30, 2015, 21:45:50
Due to the characteristics of my eye sight, I always end up with horizon tilted -1.5 degrees. Most occasions don't necessitate any correction, but for the ones which do, I never hesitate performing the required adjustment. In the days of film, that entailed tilting the slide inside the mount or printing with the negative twisted slightly to correct. Now, I have a PS Action to arrive at the same solution.
Bjørn, being aware of this problem, can't you fix it by aiming off?
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on December 30, 2015, 23:27:16
Believe me I have tried over the years... the -1.5 degree off is the closest to zero I can get. Earlier the tilt varied all over the place. As it is now uncannily consistent, an easy fix in PS/Action.

I "see" this small amount of tilt as perfectly plane and horizontal. My optician gave me a long explanation but the gist is I cannot correct against something I cannot perceive.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 30, 2015, 23:58:31
Just looking at my photos from Maui I was surprised to find how many were framed in camera and not cropped.  Lots were cropped slightly for more impact.  Another group was cropped severely, mainly due to lack of reach.  Anyone who wants to ditch every image that would benefit from cropping is welcome to do so, but I see that as a terrible waste.  Speaking for myself, if things were still like they were with slide film, I would have a different hobby, and there are probably lots of people who wish I had a different hobby anyway.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 31, 2015, 00:29:28
Ron: This is a great topic. We get emotional over it because these are permanent burning questions that are a part of our motivation to take any shot at all.

I told you before "Ron finds Sex everywhere" ... so it is another part of the motivation to worship beautiful women ... and maybe ... a phantasy ... a flirt ... whatever

***

What do you think Gary? Are you fully aware of the "why am I shooting at all? why now? why this? why that way?"

You speak of photography like a sporting event "I want to compete! I want to outshoot the competition!" It is almost a war you seem to wage....

Awareness is your Gospel, isn't it?
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 31, 2015, 00:44:19
Frank I don't know what to say about finding sex everywhere...   I would rather call it beauty and a bit of the human condition.  There is definitely a fantasy element.  I also like costumes, weird clothing, tattoos, piercings and non standard hair colors.  I find Garry Winogrand to be a great inspiration and Sally Mann too.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Andrea B. on December 31, 2015, 08:31:47
My optician gave me a long explanation but the gist is I cannot correct against something I cannot perceive.

Why don't you just turn on the little horizon thingie in the viewfinder? When the lines turn green, you are level.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Andrea B. on December 31, 2015, 08:41:29
You all can stop baiting each other now. Let everyone speak their own personal passions without getting all testosterony and thinking you are being personally addressed. You're not.

We each have our personal goals when shooting. Like, some frame in camera and some don't. Me? Where I'm from, if I used too much foot zoom to get things framed nicely then I might have pitched forward into some canyon or backed myself into a pile of rattlesnakes. So no thank you. I'll crop later in the editor if I need to. And there is no way you will ever know, will you?  :P ;D ;D ;D

The worst is when you get a foto all nicely framed and then discover when you see it in the article or book that some editor has whacked the bejesus out of it to get it to "fit". Sigh.

The worst of the worst was when I spent days getting the colour just right for some shots of an old Roman villa and later saw that they had all been converted to B&W. So much for my Really Great Photographs.

Oh well.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on December 31, 2015, 10:16:10
My optician gave me a long explanation but the gist is I cannot correct against something I cannot perceive.

Why don't you just turn on the little horizon thingie in the viewfinder? When the lines turn green, you are level.

Assumes the camera has the feature and I am using the view finder. Neither of which assumption might be true.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Akira on December 31, 2015, 10:35:08
Based on my experience of using the integrated leveling scale of Sony NEX-5R/T, I don't really trust these thingies...
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Almass on December 31, 2015, 12:30:18
I do not see how personal experiences in photography are relevant to "Making a great photograph"?

Personal experiences are exactly what it says on the tin i.e. Personal.

What is good for Gary is no good for Frank and what is good for Ron is not good for Michael.

To crop or not to crop is totally irrelevant as it depends on the photographer and the subject at hand.

I personally do and will crop every which way I so please as it is part of my shooting pleasure.

To come back to the original subject of making great photograph and to underline VERY STRONGLY the point of cropping.
Most if not all great photographs have been manipulated ad nauseam whether it is the Capa soldier to the Afghan girl.
From HCB to Mccurry, from Adams to Avedon......all without exception have cropped and D&B and heavily PP'd their "great" photographs.

So give us a break and stop living in cuckoo land with the "get it right in the camera" and the Law of Third and Golden rubbish.

As for Photo Journalism, is there a need to remind everybody of the Oh so Pristine pictures that were NOT manipulated.....some people really believe in Santa!

I said it before and will say it again:

Photography is 50% in Camera and 50% in DarkRoom.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Anthony on December 31, 2015, 14:11:44
I don't think anyone is saying don't crop or do other pp.  Of course, one is entitled to use the whole range of available tools to create an image. 

The point being made is, I think, that if one wants to train oneself in composition then a good way to do this can be to force oneself to compose within the restrictions of the viewfinder.  This can make one work harder to get the image than sitting in front of the computer, and one can learn a lot that way.

One of Bjørn R's favourite training techniques is to limit oneself for a period to shooting with only a single prime lens. 

Generally,the discipline of working with a limited range of tools, combined with self criticism of the results, can force the photographer to think harder about how to create, and this must be good.  It does not follow from this that the photographer can never again use the full range of tools.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 31, 2015, 16:57:23
Almass: The first agency announced a few days ago they will only accept OOC JPEGs in the future for tge sake
of authenticity. They claim to have a software that detects any manipulation.

I do not buy this. I can sign my RAWs with the D3 and some other cameras can do the trick too.

As an agency I would require the photographers in the field to sign their photos.

That would bring the manufacturers to recreate electronically what was the authenticity of a negative earlier.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Gary on December 31, 2015, 17:39:36
My personal experience is that by cropping in the camera has caused me to focus much more on, composition/framing/lighting/the-whole-enchilada, than I had previously mustered before.

Again, for me, the lesson of getting it right in the camera was further enforced by denying the use of an image which wasn't 'correct in the camera'.

I also believe in only shooting with one lens which quickens the time required to harmonize with that lens. (No, I wouldn't employ the one lens training technique for work.)

Sure, these techniques, lessons, training may not be for everyone, but I am willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that nearly every successful photojournalist incorporated these techniques on their road to making better photographs.

I hate bringing up that I was a pro ... I am not trying to elevate myself above others just for the sake of elevation. But, I think it is important for those reading this thread to understand where I am coming from.  Maybe what works at a pro level of competency is too extreme for a hobbyist level of competency. I don't know ... But apparently, by many of the responses it does not.  Maybe it is my natural competitiveness clouding my vision ... But I just assumed that most people who are so into photography that they contribute routinely on an Internet photographic forum, would want to shoot like a pro, would actually want to make their photographs better. To that end I offered my suggestions and personal experience.  I acknowledge that I am not the best photographer on this forum.  There are photogs shooting infra-red, ultra-violet, landscape, et al ... Which are far far above my pay level ... But, in the genre of photojournalism and for the consistency require to be a pro, I think I'm pretty good and that others may learn from my personal experiences.

Maybe, the lessons which my mentors taught me, of how to make better photographs, are too extreme for those not desiring to be pros ... I don't know ... I started shooting as a stringer for the local papers when I was in junior high (middle school). I do believe that getting it right in the camera, with the severe penalty for not getting it right, will make you a better photographer. The concentration of purpose required to consistently get it right in the camera will elevate your images to higher level of success.  (A byproduct of getting it right in the camera is harmonizing with your equipment, the two go hand-in-hand when shooting photojournalist type of subjects.) The severe penalty I and my mentors imposed on my photography shortened my learning period. 

Back in the film-only days when I was shooting professionally, we would expose for our personal film development chemicals, techniques and previsualized final print. (i.e. I only agitated a couple of times during development.) Similarily, I believe one should intentionally expose to an expectation of post processing manipulation. Getting it right in the camera may mean to underexpose for the final image, if that is the shortest/cleanest road to take. Et cetera.

More often than not, I shoot with the intent to document and report ... Not to make art. As such, I typically restrict myself to the tools I would use in a wet darkroom, dodge, burn, contrast, dust removal, et al. This also helps reinforce the lesson of getting it right in the camera. 

Finally and again, I believe that getting it right in the camera will help people become a better photographer and will significantly contribute to making better pictures.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Almass on December 31, 2015, 18:02:48
I don't think anyone is saying don't crop or do other pp.  Of course, one is entitled to use the whole range of available tools to create an image. 

The point being made is, I think, that if one wants to train oneself in composition then a good way to do this can be to force oneself to compose within the restrictions of the viewfinder.  This can make one work harder to get the image than sitting in front of the computer, and one can learn a lot that way.

One of Bjørn R's favourite training techniques is to limit oneself for a period to shooting with only a single prime lens. 

Generally,the discipline of working with a limited range of tools, combined with self criticism of the results, can force the photographer to think harder about how to create, and this must be good.  It does not follow from this that the photographer can never again use the full range of tools.

1- Composition
It is a fallacy for wanting to learn Composition and the truism is to start by learning Perspective.
Perspective is the key to Composition and when one learns the former, the latter is a natural progression.

2- One lens
Most definitely one lens.......at a time.
I mentor a handful of photographers about Perspective with the help of a cut out 3x4 on an A4 card.....this is before touching any lens or camera......Learn how to see before trying to see.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Almass on December 31, 2015, 18:07:15
Almass: The first agency announced a few days ago they will only accept OOC JPEGs in the future for tge sake
of authenticity. They claim to have a software that detects any manipulation.

I do not buy this. I can sign my RAWs with the D3 and some other cameras can do the trick too.

As an agency I would require the photographers in the field to sign their photos.

That would bring the manufacturers to recreate electronically what was the authenticity of a negative earlier.

The main reason for agencies wanting Jpegs is not really for authenticity as there is no such thing in photography in the sense that we can manipulate any picture without anybody being the wiser.

The underlining reason is the firing of staff photographers caused by the explosion of mobile camera photography.
Agencies are now open to accept any picture from anybody and pay pittance for the picture rights.

It is always about the money.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 31, 2015, 18:28:49
I do not see how personal experiences in photography are relevant to "Making a great photograph"?

Personal experiences are exactly what it says on the tin i.e. Personal.

What is good for Gary is no good for Frank and what is good for Ron is not good for Michael.

To crop or not to crop is totally irrelevant as it depends on the photographer and the subject at hand.

I personally do and will crop every which way I so please as it is part of my shooting pleasure.

To come back to the original subject of making great photograph and to underline VERY STRONGLY the point of cropping.
Most if not all great photographs have been manipulated ad nauseam whether it is the Capa soldier to the Afghan girl.
From HCB to Mccurry, from Adams to Avedon......all without exception have cropped and D&B and heavily PP'd their "great" photographs.

So give us a break and stop living in cuckoo land with the "get it right in the camera" and the Law of Third and Golden rubbish.

As for Photo Journalism, is there a need to remind everybody of the Oh so Pristine pictures that were NOT manipulated.....some people really believe in Santa!

I said it before and will say it again:

Photography is 50% in Camera and 50% in DarkRoom.

I agree with all of this.  If anyone out there wants to try what is good for me, go ahead, but it will probably be a disaster.   My version of the one lens thing is to go out with a lens affixed to the camera and no bag.  It really does wonders for my back.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Almass on December 31, 2015, 18:30:45
My personal experience is ........................................................to making better pictures.

Yes Garry. The point is that 99% of the members on this forum are not amateurs but seasoned photographers and many pros abound and need not mention that they are Pros.....Being a Pro is not an entry ticket to being good or being apt at distributing and sharing knowledge.

Ron is asking a simple and deep question as to What makes great photographs.

Cropping or having the picture right in camera is not what makes a great photograph.......

Great photographs are either posed or composed or imposed or supposed:

Here have fun with HCB deceits. Do you see where the crop is?
This is his own crop marks!






(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Duke_1/HCB_zpsltewf6wd.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on December 31, 2015, 20:33:08
I believe HCB took some off the bottom too or someone did it for him. I love the image with its abysmal IQ and the man running out of the frame instead of into it as the "rule" says.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Bill De Jager on December 31, 2015, 23:30:09
I'll add in my two cents to the cropping question.

I usually strive to get the composition right in the camera, but I'm still struggling to overcome decades of bad compositional habits.  This means that what I think of at the time as a sufficiently focused composition sometimes is not, which in turn means cropping in post.  That cropping process, at this point and for me personally, is still educational and I intend to continue it for the time being.  I see improvement in my photos over time, and few cases to date of cropping too much in camera.  The best thing I can do right now is simply make it a point to get more time behind the camera, and not doing that has probably been my biggest photographic failing over the last few years.

Another matter, though, is that there is not necessarily one correct framing for every photograph one might visualize.  When I see this while photographing I try to deal with it by taking multiple photos composed differently, but that's not always an option.

Then of course there is the matter, as Andrea noted, of situations where proper framing is just not possible and cropping in post must be assumed.  This may be due to physical limitations on foot zooming or lens magnification, or to issues with the desired aspect ratio for a given composition vs. what the camera provides.  Those of us pursuing landscape and/or macro photography are all too familiar with these issues.

There are photogs shooting infra-red, ultra-violet, landscape, et al ... Which are far far above my pay level ... 

As an amateur landscape photographer who has dabbled in infrared and UV, that's how I feel about photojournalism (and sports photography) - far above my level!

Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on December 31, 2015, 23:37:36
The greatness of a photo is all about what you see

and what you are able to capture of what you see.

My experience is that

 a lot of people do not see much
 a lot of people can see but not capture

Gary. Please teach me specific awareness.

I have it sometimes but not every day .




Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on January 01, 2016, 00:00:48


Then of course there is the matter, as Andrea noted, of situations where proper framing is just not possible and cropping in post must be assumed.  This may be due to physical limitations on foot zooming or lens magnification, or to issues with the desired aspect ratio for a given composition vs. what the camera provides.  Those of us pursuing landscape and/or macro photography are all too familiar with these issues.


All of those limitations come into play, but I find time to be the most severe one for photojournalists.  The iconic HCB photo above is a perfect example.  The photographer is sitting there with his famous sole 50mm lens, did not have time to get closer, his movement would have changed the subject's behavior so he takes the shot with the focus point on a billboard behind the man.  Better to have a little bit extra in the frame than nothing at all.  Thank goodness HCB did not bin that one.

I think all of these things like composing in camera, shooting with one lens or shooting only monochrome are exercises.  They can contribute to one's development like the way lifting weights contributes to an athlete's development, but they are not the game (unless all you do is lift weights or whatever the photographic equivalent of that is.)
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Jan Anne on January 01, 2016, 01:03:33
Finally and again, I believe that getting it right in the camera will help people become a better photographer and will significantly contribute to making better pictures.
Well this approach worked for me so I fully agree, but I also realise that it might not work for others as different people have different ways of learning.

My composition and tilt used to be all over the place but nowadays I rarely need to crop or tilt an image. I will crop however when another aspect ratio makes for a better image, been experimenting with a wider 5:3 crop which sometimes works better (but mostly the image was shot with that crop factor in mind).

I also refuse to use PS as it will make me lazy, if there's something in the image that ruins the image then so be it, mind you I'm not getting paid for my images so nothing is lost financially. By not resorting to PS I've learned to watch my corners, light, funny shadows, things sticking out of other objects, etc, etc.

Did the one lens day a few times, a few two lens holidays (16/3.5 & 50/1.2) and also went with out of camera B&W JPG's for a while. All these things sharpened my senses and made my images better, or at least I think they are better and that's all that matters for a simple amateur like me ;D
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 01, 2016, 14:55:39
I want to book a course on "photography specific awareness" held by Gary.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Kitanikkor on January 01, 2016, 16:37:54
Starting with an image that SOMEhow is unique....too many photos of too much of the same type (subject, activity, lens use, etc) tend to blur the senses and become "blah" "so what" "who cares" regardless of how technically competent they might be. 
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on January 02, 2016, 19:19:20
Starting with an image that SOMEhow is unique....too many photos of too much of the same type (subject, activity, lens use, etc) tend to blur the senses and become "blah" "so what" "who cares" regardless of how technically competent they might be.

There are many photographers and photography has been around for a while now.  It is exceedingly difficult to do anything new.  A lot of the stuff I see hanging in galleries is done in some weird kind of way.  These include handmade cameras with plastic lenses, elaborately staged scenes, and extensive computer image manipulation.

In a slightly different vein, a study done at MIT concluded the most memorable photos were of people followed by interiors and familiar objects.  The least memorable were of landscapes.  That leaves me with the impression that taking photos of people is most likely to result in great images.  Admittedly, I don't need to see another photo of Kim Kardashian or Barak Obama, but the folks I photograph don't get anywhere near that kind of exposure.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Les Olson on January 02, 2016, 20:17:50

"There are many photographers and photography has been around for a while now.  It is exceedingly difficult to do anything new."

The human body has been around for even longer, and even more people have made images of it, but it is still possible to do new things with the nude - as Bill Brandt and Robert Mapplethorpe, eg, demonstrate.  It is not easy - but that is why it is worth doing.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: charlie on January 02, 2016, 22:07:43
Pictures of people are more memorable because we are people.

If I see a picture of a landscape that speaks to me it will often make me want to travel and visit that landscape, as a photographer sometimes it will inspire me to recreate my own version of the picture if it really leaves its mark on me, but I can't as easily relate to being a tree, a rock, or a river (depending on my state of mind  ??? ). If I see a compelling picture of a person I can directly empathize with that person and the feelings they are expressing, or probably more accurately the feelings I am projecting onto them, and this leaves a longer lasting impression on me.

But just because MIT conducted a study doesn't mean taking photos of what they say is more memorable is going to make "great"  photographs.

As a people photographer I think there are three main things that lead to making great people photographs. The expression of the person(s) or emotional impact of them in their environment, the lighting, and the composition. Any one of those things can make for a compelling picture, if all of them are attained in single photograph then you are on your way to making memorable photos. That seems pretty basic but I like to think it's true. 


 
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 02, 2016, 23:07:15
"There are many photographers and photography has been around for a while now.  It is exceedingly difficult to do anything new." The human body has been around for even longer, and even more people have made images of it, but it is still possible to do new things with the nude - as Bill Brandt and Robert Mapplethorpe, eg, demonstrate.  It is not easy - but that is why it is worth doing.


I feel you are right!

Art is always about the non-obvious.

Look at Michael Erlewine. He is doing the things he does for a purpose and the purpose he claims is not to please us.

Yet he pleases us with the intention not to please us. This is art.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on January 03, 2016, 01:39:05
"There are many photographers and photography has been around for a while now.  It is exceedingly difficult to do anything new."

The human body has been around for even longer, and even more people have made images of it, but it is still possible to do new things with the nude - as Bill Brandt and Robert Mapplethorpe, eg, demonstrate.  It is not easy - but that is why it is worth doing.

I said difficult, not impossible.

Pictures of people are more memorable because we are people.

If I see a picture of a landscape that speaks to me it will often make me want to travel and visit that landscape, as a photographer sometimes it will inspire me to recreate my own version of the picture if it really leaves its mark on me, but I can't as easily relate to being a tree, a rock, or a river (depending on my state of mind  ??? ). If I see a compelling picture of a person I can directly empathize with that person and the feelings they are expressing, or probably more accurately the feelings I am projecting onto them, and this leaves a longer lasting impression on me.

But just because MIT conducted a study doesn't mean taking photos of what they say is more memorable is going to make "great"  photographs.

As a people photographer I think there are three main things that lead to making great people photographs. The expression of the person(s) or emotional impact of them in their environment, the lighting, and the composition. Any one of those things can make for a compelling picture, if all of them are attained in single photograph then you are on your way to making memorable photos. That seems pretty basic but I like to think it's true. 


MIT did  a study, that's all it is.  I shoot landscapes and enjoy it as much as photographing people.


I feel you are right!

Art is always about the non-obvious.

Look at Michael Erlewine. He is doing the things he does for a purpose and the purpose he claims is not to please us.

Yet he pleases us with the intention not to please us. This is art.

Michael Erlwine follows his own muse.  He is talented in many ways.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: charlie on January 03, 2016, 01:56:44
MIT did  a study, that's all it is. 

Yes, which you brought up and commented on, then I followed up on your comments.

That's all that was.

I shoot landscapes and enjoy it as much as photographing people.

As do I, and I find I connect differently to photos with people in them.

Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on January 05, 2016, 00:39:13
Well, I think this group has wandered around the topic.  Some of these ideas like frame in camera or shoot one lens are, in my opinion, training exercises.  They may help some and hinder others.  I don't see these strategies as being directly connected to the goal of great photography.  So, I think we got blown off course.

I have a few ideas:

1.  The subject matter has to be right.  There is no doubt in my mind that photographing people improves the odds, but people are by no means the only right subject matter.  Think Ansel Adams for example.

2.  The photographer must understand the subject matter.  In the case of people this is extraordinarily complex.  It is my belief some photographers are able to establish a connection with their subjects which creates an enormously positive effect on the images.  This result is, IMO, not likely with professional models.  I think there is something to be known about the human condition and not everybody gets it.  Some of the best wildlife photos I have seen were taken by rangers and guides who are around wildlife a lot.

3.  The photographer must have a sense of aesthetics.  That means understanding color, proportion, perspective and who knows what else.  A formal art education is not necessary, but it might help.  There is more to color than avoiding a bad color cast. 

4.  The photographer has to be capable of creative out of the box thinking.  There are dozens of rules of portraiture.  A photographer who always follows then will be a decent wedding shooter, but the work will have nothing to distinguish it.

5.  Obviously, one must have competent equipment and know how to use it right.  Everyone around here knows my philosophy is you don't need the ultimate in gear.

6.  I probably left something important off this list, but the general idea is it is about the photographer and his connection to what he shoots.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on January 05, 2016, 00:54:56
The only idea here I personally can connect to and identify with, is #4.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on January 05, 2016, 01:18:51
The only idea here I personally can connect to and identify with, is #4.

That is a lot better than none.  It might be the one that does it for all my wandering.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Jan Anne on January 05, 2016, 09:11:15
6.  I probably left something important off this list, but the general idea is it is about the photographer and his connection to what he shoots.
My number one; Light.

The rest follows automagically as in that I don't have to think about it.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 05, 2016, 12:56:16
My number one; Light.

My list: Seeing, Light, Perspective, ...

for portraits 99% is model interaction. If there is no connection to the person you take a photo of the picture will be bland.

for architecture 50% Light (come back when the light is right) ... 50% feel for geometry

for advertizing 95% conceptual work (getting the message right and the connotation) .. 5% technical stuff

for food 25% styling ... 75% lighting & perspective
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: tommiejeep on January 05, 2016, 13:26:14
My number one; Light.

The rest follows automagically as in that I don't have to think about it.

I guess mine was one of the posts that went with the change over  :(
I gave a +10 to your number one.  I think , except for Bjørn R and some others , light is required.  Obviously light has many sub-sets but has to be around for me.  I really need to work more with the various artificial lights which we have.  B.R and some will shoot in the dark and just use a different method of getting the image  ;D .
Tom
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on January 05, 2016, 16:00:34
Light could fit into several categories.  By definition photography requires light.  Photographers must know how to use light to their advantage.   I am not proposing rules by any means, just ideas, #6 is good enough.

I am forever asking people to step into the shade due to the strong sun we have on so many days in Texas.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Kitanikkor on January 07, 2016, 00:47:44
You make good points Ron...now let's see results that avoid the mundane, the obvious and the pointless....another point...photography is about LIGHT and not just about the subject being lit.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: tommiejeep on January 07, 2016, 03:01:13
The type and quality of light is all important.   Subdued , textured, flat, harsh, bright, diffused etc.     I am cursed with harsh, bright  and flat light most of the year.  The Monsoon is really the only time I can get good light on a dependable basis but then few birds, and I get very wet  ;D .   I call it Egret light since the whites do not get blown as much.  I pray for thunder storms and stormy skies  ;) ,  I used to shoot in the Forest and loved the shadows and rays coming through the trees then the Government closed off the Forest for a rubbish dump  >:( . Progress  :'(

My favourite for birds and Sports is when there is cloud cover at just the right altitude so the Golden hour has the sun light bouncing down from the clouds.  Soft , diffused light that can have some really interesting colours and textures.  When I spot the conditions I grab one of the cameras, near to hand and rigged, then I head for my jeep.  Works for landscapes/Cityscapes as well.  Pollution/Smog can give some interesting effects but I'd rather it not be there.  Fog and mist, love 'em.  I'll be getting both, in the early mornings, any day now  :)
Tom
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Ron Scubadiver on January 07, 2016, 04:02:47
Well, I believe light is about using light to the best advantage.  My bias is light is inherent to photography.  It is as essential as having a camera or a lens.  In my mind it comes under either aesthetics or subject matter.  Perhaps another category is needed.  Tommie, I have been in India during the Monsoon and I understand what you are saying.  Bright high contrast sun is a challenge.  Haze, clouds and other forms of low contrast light are great for photographing people.  There is a lot of high contrast light in Texas.  They don't call it the sunbelt for nothing.  I can remember Monsoon rains in Bombay, alternately misting and raining as I walked down the seawall.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Tom Gresham on February 02, 2016, 18:59:50
Fascinating thread.  Photography is personal.  At least, it should be.  Note how people get so wrapped up in the "THAT'S not the way *I* do it" concept.  :)   Hey, it's personal.  We should be emotional about it.

Make photos that interest you.  Make photos that please you.  You should look at what you shot a few years ago and be dissatisfied with them -- in general. 

How to take an interesting photo?  Stand in front of something that interests you.

Shoot before other photographers get out of bed.  Shoot when other photographers have gone to the bar.  Shoot when the light is perfect . . . and also when it is terrible.  Shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot.   

I have filled dozens and dozens of large trash cans with 35mm slides.  In the first pass on the light table, if it's not good, just throw it away.  It's not getting better. Shoot, shoot, shoot.

Shoot all the time.  As with all skills, you get better at it the more you do it, but only if you demand of yourself that you improve.

Sometimes I ask myself, "Why are you going there?  What do you think you'll see there?"  The answer is always that I don't know what I'll see, but I know that if I don't go there, I won't see anything interesting there. 

Show up.  Show up early.  Stay late.  Work at it.  Be obsessive about it.  Hang out (in person, online, in books, and in galleries) with photographers who are so good you wonder how they do it.  Study how they do it.  Copy the heck out of them -- only as an exercise.  Then apply the skills you gained through that exercise to your own photography. 

Is a great photo made when you press the shutter button, or is it made in the darkroom (digital or otherwise)?  The answer is: YES!

You do whatever it takes.  Whatever it takes.

How do you make really great photographs?  Heck, I don't know. Sometimes you just get lucky.  But, the more you work at it, the luckier you get.   

OH! And always have a camera with you. ;)

(This opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it, and nothing more.)
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 02, 2016, 20:16:24
Tom. Thank you!
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: John Geerts on February 02, 2016, 20:31:17
Good explanation Tom.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Gary on February 02, 2016, 23:15:36
I just gave a talk on photography to a high school. Here is a copy of my handout.

Gary's Ten Tips to Shoot Like a Pro
DISCLAIMER:
(Not all of the tips necessarily come from Gary but he'll take credit for them all.)
(These are General Tips and there will always exceptions to the general.)


Photography is made up of many different components. Those many components come together/are combined in different percentages per the photographer and the genre. But a significant component in photography, across all genres, is craft. As such, the more you do the better you will become.
Consequently:
1) Shoot;
2) Shoot some more; and
3) At the end of the day when you think you're finished, Shoot Again.

4) Find, Latch Onto and/or Hire ... A Mentor.
Seek someone who is highly skilled and passionate in photography, (the greater the skill the better). A Mentor will teach you the ropes, keep you focused and most importantly ... kick your butt. When you do a good job, the mentor will kick your butt and when you do a crummy job your mentor will kick your butt harder. "But, Gary ... Why does my butt get kicked when I do a good job?" you ask. Because ... (wait for it) ... You can ALWAYS do better. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the root for the passion and the challenge, which is photography.

5) You Can Always Do Better.
There is always room for improvement. Mr. Z asked me to bring my best stuff. It dawned on me that my best stuff is probably in the libraries/archives of the LA Times, UPI and the Orange County News. While that may be true, I never cared that my stuff was packed away, far from the light of day. Why doesn't this matter, because tomorrow I expect to capture an image which is better than I took yesterday.

6) Previsualize the image.
(Okay, 'Previsualize' is redundant and not a proper word, but it is something Ansel Adams came up with ... I won't correct Adams, especially on something as trivial as English.) This is important, if you shoot enough, (1 above), if you harmonize with your equipment, (8 below), previsualization is the next natural and critical step. Before I bring the viewfinder up to my eye, I have a mental picture of the final image. In my little cream cheese brain I can see the image I desire to capture, then I proceed to position the camera (composition), select the lens (perspective), adjust the settings (exposure), to reflect my mental image.

7) Shoot for the Exceptional Image.
Go big or go home. As a journalist, I was taught that the written word wasn't any different than the photograph. They both tell the story. Lenses to the photojournalist are like adjectives to the reporter. One can shoot with a focal length close to how we see ... But what's the point? What is so remarkable about that? Or you can use focal lengths which are perspectively much different than our natural vision ... "Aye, There's the Rub" ... what the writer does with adjectives, the photog does with lenses ... Embellishing, Highlighting this, De-emphasizing that, drawing us into the story and finally, putting your signature on the photo and making it exceptional. (Granted, there are stories which don't require a helluve lot of adjectives, YMMV.)

8) Harmonize with Your Equipment.
Yes, new hardware is cool. Yes, shooting with a ton of lenses is even cooler. But, (the big but), Start out small and add to your equipment slowly over time. Start with one lens and shoot the hell out of it. Understand how the lens works, what the DOF will be at f/11 or the edge sharpness at f/2. Know where the adjustments are without having to draw you eye away from the viewfinder and take a peak. After you have mastered that lens, then add another. Repeat. Same-o for the camera. Use it to the point where all your adjustments are semi-conscience, performed in the background, allowing you to focus all/most of your mental capabilities on the image in the viewfinder ... or the image you want in the viewfinder. (Pour moi and my cream cheese brain, this is vitally important.)

9) Be Your Worse Critic.
Kick you own butt. The delete button is your friend. Being your own worst critic will not only improve your photography but also make you as a person quite negative and socially repulsive.

10) See the Light.
Look beyond the subject and look at the light. Light is nothing short of fantastic, embrace it, work with it, capture the light. To add drama to your photos shoot towards the light (period).

General Stuff:
Rule of Thirds. When all less fails, use the Rule of Thirds.
Fill the Frame. Of course ... Fill the Frame with your subject. Shoot with the intent of not cropping in post.
Do not bisect the frame with the horizon. (Enough said.)
Get it right in the camera. There is an imaginary, thin, meandering gray line separating the photographer from the digital artist. I prefer the title of photographer, others consider themselves digital artist and others don't give a rat's and do what they're gonna do without regard to a label. This topic is just one more thing to think about ... How much manipulation is required to change a photograph into fictional art? How much manipulation is used because the "photog" is too lazy, too incompetent and/or too ignorant, to Get It Right in the camera? What does copious manipulation say of the photographer ... Imagination ... Ineptness ... Unskilled ... Skilled?)

Remember that all rules are situational, use them or not … per your choice. But you need to know them so you can make a choice.

-30-
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Thomas G on February 03, 2016, 00:10:07
... yes, do it.

(Dell 2711, Df, PK-12, 105mm f/4 Micro)
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Tom Gresham on February 03, 2016, 00:49:07
Gary,

Your work reminds me of Rich Clarkson or Brian Lanker.  Top news and sports photographers for a long time.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Gary on February 03, 2016, 03:48:55
Gary,

Your work reminds me of Rich Clarkson or Brian Lanker.  Top news and sports photographers for a long time.

Thank you Tom.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 03, 2016, 10:36:18
Gary:

Perspective is the position of the camera and the direction you point it to. Period.

Changes in focal length changes the crop.

All the best
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: golunvolo on February 03, 2016, 22:29:41
That is not what I perceive. Maybe I´m misunderstanding.  Change in focal length has an effect in perspective. A huge one at that. Making the relationship between objects in the space change dramatically.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Jakov Minić on February 03, 2016, 22:49:35
I agree with Paco :)
This image was taken with a 24mm lens. I don't see how it could be taken with a let's say 300mm lens?

Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: John Geerts on February 03, 2016, 23:01:29
Great shot, Jakov. :)

Yes, your equipment (Lens) is leading.  It makes a huge difference when photographing streetviews for instance with a 16mm or a 180mm.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 04, 2016, 19:30:17
Of course you cannot shoot a 300 from that distance even if it was a
300 1:1 macro. That is because you cannot focus and you would only
Capture a hair and a tiny piece of skin.

For certain perspectives you need shorter or longer
Focal lengths. In your case you also aim at a huge
Field of view. You want to see the grass behind the cow
Not only one hair and a piece of skin.

If you want to shoot a house with correct geometrical
Proportions it is a good idea to step back and use a ladder
Then use a well corrected medium tele if possible.

Same goes for steep perspective in a Portrait. You should
Use the same perspecive i.e. subject distance with
A 24 a 50 or an 85mm lens or you get caricature
Noses or bended flat faces at the edge if the frame.

That distortion is due to subject distance
Nothing else. You cannot correct perspective in post

Perspective is Position of camera and pointing direction. Period.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Jakov Minić on February 04, 2016, 19:57:10


Perspective is Position of camera and pointing direction. Period.

Frank, I don't argue that perspective isn't the position of a camera and the direction it is pointing at. Period.
But I do claim that perspective changes from that same point and direction with a different focal length used. Comma,

The sense of depth and spatial relationships in a photo do change with focal length, at least I humbly think so. KarmaComa,

Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on February 04, 2016, 20:30:51
In this question, Frank holds the correct answer. Perspective has nothing to do with the lens as such. It is determined by the camera position relative to the subject.

A short focal length allows a shorter distance between subject and camera and thus produces a steeper perspective. However, to arrive at the same scale of magnification, you can use almost any lens, but then the distance will change thus altering the perspective.

Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: BW on February 04, 2016, 21:05:28
My recipe is usually very simple. Stand in front of something really interesting and pay close attention to the elements within the frame.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Erik Lund on February 04, 2016, 21:41:56
Please let go of these rules Frank, it really doesn't belong on NikonGear to state such fixed thoughts.

Just go to the Organ thread, distortion all over the place and horizontal and vertical lines going right and left.

It's allowed to shoot a portrait or architecture with what ever lens you like,,,

Sure for some a paying client has the final saying - but IMHO that has nothing to do with the question of this thread,,,
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 04, 2016, 23:58:27
My recipe is usually very simple. Stand in front of something really interesting and pay close attention to the elements within the frame.

this is a good recipe, but there is more to it than standing. To find the right perspective I feel it is often
Necessary to walk around the subject to climb up some stairs or a ladder or come back at another time
of day or year. In a studio one can control all elements or in the case of a model or animal interact to
achieve the desired effect. Not so outside. Not so in spontaneous interaction.

So coming back to the original question it depends very much on what you want to achieve.

Do you want to reproduce the 10.000th shot of a naked women in a studio with textbook lighting?

Do you want to capture something unique that will never be the same again?

Do you want a long term documentation of slow changes in a city?

Do you aim to find your own artistic expression?

There are as many motivations and ideas about a great photo as there are photographers.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Jacques Pochoy on February 24, 2016, 16:27:57
That's the way I see things, i'll now will call it the Gary's way... :-)

Sure, faraway subjects are great when you have the "knack" to see pictures that aren't seen by the locals, nor by the "tourists" !
The best training in my very own viewpoint is to shoot and shoot again some very local areas of your own city or dwellings, thus learning to see more then what's there in the first place.
Even after all that time it's not easy to get that "perfect" frame you had in mind, then it's another whole can of worms to share it with others (prints, galleries, web, books, etc.)!
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 24, 2016, 17:21:54
Please let go of these rules Frank, it really doesn't belong on NikonGear to state such fixed thoughts.

Just go to the Organ thread, distortion all over the place and horizontal and vertical lines going right and left.

It's allowed to shoot a portrait or architecture with what ever lens you like,,,

Sure for some a paying client has the final saying - but IMHO that has nothing to do with the question of this thread,,,


It is not about rules, Erik.

It is about words and concepts.

The word "perspective" is very often used for what it not is
creating confusion. I pled to use the word to label the concept:

A stool is a stool
A table is a table.

I feel that this thread offers a lot to learn and a lot of different
perspectives.

Is there a recipe to create "great photos"?

I think no. The term great photos has not eben been defined.

What we learn in Gary's Rule is to become a better photographer.

Is it like sports? The more you exercise the better you get?

That does not mean everybody makes it to the Olympic games.
There is talent there is communication and interaction and there
is luck.

If I would define a great photo it is one that has made it to the
museum and is canonized after 50 years.

Cindy Sherman made it in early years and is still there.

Gursky made it, the Bechers made it, Kertez and HCB and Sander.

That is where we learn. These are some of the giants on whose
shoulders we stand. Now we take it to the next level or be forgotten

That is OK. Many run. Many swim. Few recieve a gold medal and
make history. That should be motivation for every one of us
not disvouragrment

Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Jan Anne on February 24, 2016, 18:39:35
Is there a recipe to create "great photos"?

I think no. The term great photos has not eben been defined.
Yes there is, great photographers produce great photos ;D

The better the photographer the more consistently great his / her images will be.

Learn the rules and break them, bend them, invent your own rules, break them, reinvent them, this cycle never stops.

The mediocre are always at their best, don't be mediocre, don't follow the rules everybody else is following, thats for sheep jumping fences.

So, understand the rules and than properly f*ck the rules!!!!!!!!

Dropping the mic, slowly nodding his head a few times, points his finger to the crowd and slowly walks away  8) 8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Almass on February 24, 2016, 20:15:58
The main rule is that there is no rule.

Rules do not make great photographs. It is simply a pitiful excuse for snapshot photographers.



Edward Steichen (1879-1973)
In Memoriam, 1901
coated platinum print.

Price Realized: $665,000



(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Duke_1/tumblr_lig2yd1z7J1qb8vpuo1_1280_zpsftntp8kz.jpg)






Rudolf Koppitz (1884-1936)
Bewegungsstudie (Movement study), 1925
gelatin silver print

Price Realized: $100,000


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Duke_1/BGqApXHr_xUVX43X84DcxSZxDss780x1040_zpsnadcgbuo.jpg)





Diane Arbus (1923-1971)
Burlesque comedienne in her dressing room, Atlantic City, NJ., 1963
gelatin silver print.

Price Realized: $43,750


(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Duke_1/1210177_1_l_zpsymdqsnja.jpg)





And the Magnum founder whose photographic prowess leave a lot to be desired:
Henri Cartier-Bresson (1908-2004)
Alicante, Spain, 1932
gelatin silver print

Price Realized: $3,000


 (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/Duke_1/Henri-Cartier-Bresson-alicante_zpsutvt5wjj.jpg)
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Tom Gresham on February 28, 2016, 15:11:13
The answer was on my book shelf.

Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 28, 2016, 15:19:42
Tom: Greatful for the Enlightenment ;-)
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Gary on March 03, 2016, 16:13:53
Leave it to Kodak to figure it all out.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on March 03, 2016, 16:40:48
Leave it to Kodak to figure it all out.

I press the button & I do the rest (just taken an hour ago):

Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: charlie on March 04, 2016, 06:38:40
Frank, I like this portrait!
Reminded me of Bill Brandt.
Title: Re: How do you make really great photographs?
Post by: The_Traveler on March 04, 2016, 20:35:24
I've been in a muddle the last several weeks. 
After judging at a couple of local camera clubs' competitions I received a couple of invitations to speak and the preferred topic was street shooting.

I looked back at the presentations I've given and everything I've said before rings a bit superficial to me.

My favorite analogy of the difficulty of photography is this one:

There is one specific kind of fishing that maps so interestingly onto a niche in photography that the examination of the fishing can actually inform the awareness of the issues of photography – and that area is fly fishing and its photographic equivalent of street shooting.
A novice fly fisherman generally approaches that sport niche without too much knowledge yet most believe that the primary issue is the equipment. Indeed there is a huge complexity in equipment, different lengths and weights of rod, different flexibilities that demand the use of different weight line, because it is the line not the lure that provides the weight and momentum to be cast.
Then there is the leader, a thinner transparent nylon attached to the end of the line, tippets of even lighter, more invisible nylon and then of course the flies matched to the season, the manner of fishing and even the virtually unknowable appetite of the fish.

The necessity to make decisions about what to get is almost overwhelming and yet required. Inevitably what one gets to start is, in some way, just as inevitably wrong and replaced. (I have 5 or 6 fly rods and some matching reels and lines, bought at different levels of involvement; each one slightly different but sharing an increasing cost.)


Once the new fisherman is suitably outfitted with waders and vest, with the rod and attachments only partially listed above and has even learned one or more variations on how to cast, he or she steps to the edge of the water and suddenly realizes one thing. All of this preparation, everything, does not make him or her a fisherman, it only prepares him or her to start to learn how to fish.


What he/she sees is water, usually moving, in all its various possible bumps, dips, hollows and planes. There are no signs, no flashing beacons that say, 'fish here, use this specific fly and in this specific size, then cast your line here, there is a trout waiting.' It is up the to the fisherman now to learn to read the water, to understand the environment and to place him/herself in the best position to put his fly so that, if a fish is there, the fish can strike at the lure.
And there is no certainty, no matter the amount of effort or the interest or the time expended, that any specific person will even get a strike because that is really up to the fish.
And further there is no certainty, no matter the amount of effort or the time expended or the interest or the desire that any specific person will ever get to be a 'great' fisherman.


Surely he or she might, by dint of repetition, improve but there is some ephemeral, unteachable talent that will, just like in photography, allow a person to be somehow better at this activity than his or her peers."


It is easy enough to tell people about the facts and the skills, but when it comes down to it, I don't think there is any way to teach someone to take great pictures.
You can cut out some of the stupid mistakes and you can give them some pointers to miss a few potholes on their journey but, whether they get to make great pictures is unknowable.


Years ago, I would routinely take people on to shoot events, etc and not one of these people ever got beyond OK. (in my opinion, that is)


I used to get frustrated at the photography I would see in shows, 99.99% of which was unoriginal.
Eventually I accepted the fact, that doing photography for external praise or recognition would always be a losing endeavor and somehow I changed until I was shooting only for myself, for the act of creation. I like it if people like my pictures, I don't care if they don't.
I don't have any rules for myself about lenses, editing, cropping, framing - I will do anything to make the image match the one in my mind's eye.


And perhaps that is the real point.


If you don't have the kind of mind that sees the interesting scene, the meaningful scene, the emotional scene,
if you don't have the kind of mind that can isolate that instant and capture it, if you don't have the objectivity to see the gap between what the camera gives and what you have conceived, you'll never be good at making good or great pictures.