NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: David H. Hartman on November 25, 2020, 23:58:17
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I've been searching the archives but I'm not finding what I'm looking for hence this question...
I'm wondering if the D850 viewfinder is significantly better for manual focus of AI and AIS Nikkors than the D800? Can anyone compare the D850 viewfinder to cameras I'm familiar with like the Nikon F3, F3HP and F5. What about a comparison between the D2H and D850 viewfinders? Did dropping the popup flash give Nikon a chance to design a better D850 viewfinder? Did they take it?
I'm under using my pleasant collection of manual focus Nikkor and considering a D850 as the price is down about $800.00 compared to a year ago.
Thank you for any advice you can offer!
Dave
Searching at https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/ I refreshed my memory of the F3/F3HP. The F2 (DE-2) had a image magnification with a 50mm at infinity or 0.8x and the F3HP (DE-3) had an image magnification of 0.75x. Of all Nikon SLR(s) I've used to date the F3 non-HP offers the most comfortable viewfinder of any I'm used. The F3HP and F5 came in second.
The F3 and F3HP can use the course non-Red Dot screens that are more suited to fast lenses. The "Fruit" as it were of the older Nikon screens can be transplanted into the F5 finder frames. The one finder screen I butchered was a slip while installing a D screen into an F5 frame. [now i remember I tried to mark the "D" with cross hairs and slipped. I was probably using an X-acto knife.]
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I have no experience with the D850. However, I can say that the Canon S screen is wonderful for manual focus. You can obtain one that has been cut to fit from focusingscreen.com if the stock screen is not up to snuff.
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Thank you for the information. It's something to look into.
Dave
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From the Designers point of view, Google translate Quote;
——On the other hand, the optical viewfinder function is substantial, but why did you install an optical viewfinder with specifications that partially exceed the D5?
Hara: From the beginning of the project, the D850 was a camera that mainly used an optical viewfinder, and we examined how much the viewfinder performance could be improved. We already have a great viewfinder for the D5, how far can we exceed this, for example with a finder magnification? There was an argument.
After considering it, I thought that it would be possible to make it about 0.75 times as much as 0.72 times D5, so I decided to try this once. Since the D850 is a high-resolution camera, it was easier to check the focus with a large viewfinder display.
0.72x is a well-balanced viewfinder magnification for the D5, which is designed for sports photography, because it allows you to quickly see the entire field of view. However, since the D850 is a high-pixel model, I decided to go a little further and make it as large as possible.
Quote end.
The viewfinder is very good IMHO, much better/larger than in the D810 i used before i got the D850.
There is a thread here on changing for other Screens:
https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=7298.0
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I agree the D850 viewfinder is great, it is clear and has more even illumination across the frame and higher magnification than previous models in the D8x0 series. The D810 was already an improvement in viewfinder clarity over the D800 due to improved coatings. However, with the D5/D6 viewfinder, I can see the edges more easily as I wear eyeglasses. It is interesting to see that it is by intention of the designers.
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Thank you guys! I think it's time to pull the trigger on a D850.
Dave
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A good time to buy - there are some good pre-Christmas discounts here in my part of the world. Enjoy!
Thank you guys! I think it's time to pull the trigger on a D850.
Dave
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A good time to buy - there are some good pre-Christmas discounts here in my part of the world. Enjoy!
Also in the U.S. - $500 off list price and $800 off the original price. I've had my eye on this camera for years and I finally pulled the trigger earlier this month.
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I've been searching the archives but I'm not finding what I'm looking for hence this question...
I'm wondering if the D850 viewfinder is significantly better for manual focus of AI and AIS Nikkors than the D800? Can anyone compare the D850 viewfinder to cameras I'm familiar with like the Nikon F3, F3HP and F5. What about a comparison between the D2H and D850 viewfinders? Did dropping the popup flash give Nikon a chance to design a better D850 viewfinder? Did they take it?
I'm under using my pleasant collection of manual focus Nikkor and considering a D850 as the price is down about $800.00 compared to a year ago.
Thank you for any advice you can offer!
Dave
Searching at https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/ I refreshed my memory of the F3/F3HP. The F2 (DE-2) had a image magnification with a 50mm at infinity or 0.8x and the F3HP (DE-3) had an image magnification of 0.75x. Of all Nikon SLR(s) I've used to date the F3 non-HP offers the most comfortable viewfinder of any I'm used. The F3HP and F5 came in second.
The F3 and F3HP can use the course non-Red Dot screens that are more suited to fast lenses. The "Fruit" as it were of the older Nikon screens can be transplanted into the F5 finder frames. The one finder screen I butchered was a slip while installing a D screen into an F5 frame.
I replaced the Focussing Screen in my D850 with an F6-Type the like of which is used in the D500. I remember to have discussed that process in a thread somewhere.
Best use of legacy Nikkors is with the Z-Series of Cameras in my Opinion. That is why I use AF-S G&E Lenses with the D850 and manual glass with the Z6
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There is a thread here on changing for other Screens:
https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=7298.0
Thank you Eric
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If a need particular focusing / use of manual lenses, the D850 has all the tools you need in Lv mode.
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I have no experience with the D850. However, I can say that the Canon S screen is wonderful for manual focus. You can obtain one that has been cut to fit from focusingscreen.com if the stock screen is not up to snuff.
Be advised that the excellent matte view of the Canon S-screen comes at the cost of not being very bright with not so large aperture lenses, considerably darker than than the not longer available Katzeye all matte (non-Optibright) screen that was based on FM3a screens. https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=539.msg31727#msg31727 (https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=539.msg31727#msg31727)
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Good on you Bill. You enjoy as well! An early Merry Christmas in a hell of a year.
Also in the U.S. - $500 off list price and $800 off the original price. I've had my eye on this camera for years and I finally pulled the trigger earlier this month.
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Be advised that the excellent matte view of the Canon S-screen comes at the cost of not being very bright with not so large aperture lenses...
The brighter Nikon F3HP Red-Dot screens only revel accurate focus to about f/2.8~f/2.5. The course texture of the earlier F2 and F3 screens are perhaps good to about f/1.4.This is my subjective evaluation. I'm sure there are others here with more accurate knowledge who can affirm or clarify if I'm off the mark. Anyway there is a trade off between bright and accurate with fast lenses.
I've never tried an optibright screen so I can't comment on those.
Dave
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Best use of legacy Nikkors is with the Z-Series of Cameras in my Opinion. That is why I use AF-S G&E Lenses with the D850 and manual glass with the Z6
If Inwere a real person instead of a "Toon" (Who Framed Roger Rabit, 1988) I'd probably buy a Z7 II as I've long suspected that Nikon mirrorless cameras are a good option for them. Also mirrorless being silent should make a good "fly on the wall" camera for taking candid photos of people.
Dave
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ive always wondered what happened to katzeye :o :o :o
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I wonder if the Nikon Gods will be favorable? I have a Nikon DK-17M, 1.2x magnifying eyepiece. I was able to use that eyepiece on one of my Nikon SLR/DSLR cameras and still see the complete viewfinder even with glasses. This was not possible with the D800.
Dave
[No: I'm certain I will not see the D850's full screen and data with the DK-17M and glasses.]
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Hallelujah, hallelujah,
ride my Chevrolet.
--Billy Gibbons
The Nikon D850 has given me back my 105/2.5 AIS and 135/2.8 AIS Nikkor! This is as much fun as the well worn 1962 Chevrolet Corvair Monza I got when I was 18 years old. I'm going to tear up the Chevy Chase Canyon like I did when I was a senior in high school.
Dave
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So you have pulled the trigger!
Well done David - enjoy! :)
Thank you guys! I think it's time to pull the trigger on a D850.
Dave
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Congratulations! Enjoy and share some images ;)
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My next frontier: using a Helios 50/2. You’ve been warned.
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The D850 viewfinder gives a similar focus experience to the F3HP (DE-3 Prism) and F5. The F3HP, F5 and D850 all have a viewfinder magnification of 0.75x and they are all excellent viewfinders so this makes sense. The F3 (DE-2 Prism) is easier to focus as it has a viewfinder magnification of 0.80x. I was fortunate to see the full F3 screen with my glasses on.
The eye relief of the D850 is just enough so I can see the full screen image and data with glasses on. Facial structure plays a roll so some may not be able to see the full D850 viewfinder image and data without moving the camera while wearing glasses. Under moderate light I can focus my 105/2.5 AIS consistently on the matte surface. I struggle to do the same with my 50/1.2 AIS. Perhaps this is because the 50/1.2 AIS is softer wide open than the 105/2.5 AIS is.
The DX camera beat the FX cameras for focusing ease: the D2H had a 0.86x finder magnification, the D300s a 0.94x and the D500 must be killer with a 1.0x finder.
I'm happy with the D850's viewfinder. :)
Dave
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Under moderate light I can focus my 105/2.5 AIS consistently on the matte surface. I struggle to do the same with my 50/1.2 AIS. Perhaps this is because the 50/1.2 AIS is softer wide open than the 105/2.5 AIS is.
Maybe. In general, the shorter the FL, the more difficult the focussing. The difficulty is due to, and compensated by, the higher DoF (error tolerance).
The Noct, while sharper wide open than the 50/1.2, is also difficult to focus on the Df, while for instance the 35/2.8 PC seems easier. So it is not just a matter of focal length.
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I'm using a split-image screen on the Df and have no issues with focusing my Nocts (AI & AIS models).
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I'm using a split-image screen on the Df and have no issues with focusing my Nocts (AI & AIS models).
Sure, but since the eighties I'm sold on split-prism-and-other-clutter-free focussing screens. I find split prisms (and, worse, microprisms) distracting and prefer a few "misses" to permanent clutter. It is the same subjective issue as acceptance for electronic viewfinders: I can use them but would remove every possible display. Others will just reject them and only accept OVFs.
I might of course choose the lesser evil, i.e. split prism or even AF, if and when my eyesight becomes insufficient. Tempus transit.
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My eyesight hasn't improved over the years -- I had to abandon my beloved F2 Titan because focusing became so difficult. With the Df I still have an excellent chance of getting everything right, at least for now. However, given the razor-thin depth of focus of the Noct at f/1.2, and the lens being manual focus, makes for slow pace of operation. That suit me well, however. I'm not an action photographer.
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I found that I wasn't too bad with focusing my 50/1.2 AIS on my D2H or but then body sway totally blew the focus if I was standing. The super thin DoF at f/1.2 and subject distance of 1.5 to 2.0 meters made holding focus a crap shoot. I think I was using the D2H with a DK-17m (1.2x). I think that gave me about a 1.0x viewfinder magnification. Focus on a bright screen was a matter of estimation at f/1.2.
A course screen was an option for the F3 and an old F2 or F3 non red-dot screen could be installed in an F4 or F5 focus screen frame. With a few slowish zooms like the AF-D 28-70/3.5-4.5 and AF-D 70-180/4.5-5.6 I don't think I want to install a dark custom screen in my D850. If I ever start shooting B&W and printing in the old wet darkroom I'll have to get some old F3 screens.
Dave
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I find split prisms (and, worse, microprisms) distracting and prefer a few "misses" to permanent clutter.
With FE2(s) and FM2n(s) I settled in to E screens or B screens. There is probably an E screen in my F3 and F5 but I haven't looked lately. I never liked microprism focus screen.
Dave
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Dave, have you considered having a prescription lens made up and substituting it for the one in the D850 viewfinder eye piece?
I am lucky in that I have enough adjustment in my camera bodies to avoid having to do this.
The D850 viewfinder gives a similar focus experience to the F3HP (DE-3 Prism) and F5. The F3HP, F5 and D850 all have a viewfinder magnification of 0.75x and they are all excellent viewfinders so this makes sense. The F3 (DE-2 Prism) is easier to focus as it has a viewfinder magnification of 0.80x. I was fortunate to see the full F3 screen with my glasses on.
The eye relief of the D850 is just enough so I can see the full screen image and data with glasses on. Facial structure plays a roll so some may not be able to see the full D850 viewfinder image and data without moving the camera while wearing glasses. Under moderate light I can focus my 105/2.5 AIS consistently on the matte surface. I struggle to do the same with my 50/1.2 AIS. Perhaps this is because the 50/1.2 AIS is softer wide open than the 105/2.5 AIS is.
The DX camera beat the FX cameras for focusing ease: the D2H had a 0.86x finder magnification, the D300s a 0.94x and the D500 must be killer with a 1.0x finder.
I'm happy with the D850's viewfinder. :)
Dave
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Dave, have you considered having a prescription lens made up and substituting it for the one in the D850 viewfinder eye piece?
I am lucky in that I have enough adjustment in my camera bodies to avoid having to do this.
I had a full prescription eyepiece including correction for astigmatism made for my Hasselblad NC-2 Prism. The correction for astigmatism only works if you don't rotate the camera for verticals. Since the Hasselblad 500CM has a mind operated rotating turning the camera for verticals isn' a problem. With a change of focus screen the Hasselblad was as easy to focus as the F3. Today I'm using better quality off the shelf reading glasses. I need a new pair of superscription eye glasses. My last several pair gave me 20/15 vision. I'll have to see if that can be done again. I rather than the doctor might be the limiting factor. I guess shooting through prescription eye glasses corrects for astigmatism. The major factor aside from one's eyes is the viewfinder magnification.
Dave
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I find I'm able to use the DK-17M (1.2x) eyepiece with my D850 without glasses but then the top LCD and rear tilting monitor are too blurry for my use. With glasses I have to move camera in relation to my eye to see the corners and viewfinder data. The DK-17M as I suspected is not useful to me on the D850. I bought the DK-21M (1.2x) viewfinder eye piece for my D300s but it wasn't useful to me on that camera.
A younger photographer who doesn't shoot with glasses can probably use the DK-17M on a D850. One's facial structure plays a roll. A boost from a 0.75x to 0.90x viewfinder magnification would be great for those who can use the DK-17M on their Nikon Camera.
I'm not particularly disappointed as I didn't think I could use the DK-17M on my D850 since I wasn't able to use it on my D800.
Dave
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A pity you can’t use it. The DK17M was a systematic add-on since I first used the D700, eleven years ago. Without it, I would probably give up manual focus or move to mirrorless.
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A pity you can’t use it. The DK17M was a systematic add-on since I first used the D700, eleven years ago. Without it, I would probably give up manual focus or move to mirrorless.
If I was younger the DK-17M would be on my D850. The viewfinder focus indicator is useful but not as useful as the one in the F5 which was red-green-red instead of all white and could be used with peripheral vision. I think my D2H had the red-green-red display also. I wonder if the D6 has the red-green-red focus indicator but I doubt it.
There are visual tells to when critical focus is achieved on a repeating subject pattern, a moiré pattern on the focus screen or display. The D850 is as good as the F3HP and F5 for manual focus on the matte surface so for now it's OK.
Dave
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If I was younger the DK-17M would be on my D850. The viewfinder focus indicator is useful but not as useful as the one in the F5 which was red-green-red instead of all white and could be used with peripheral vision. I think my D2H had the red-green-red display also. I wonder if the D6 has the red-green-red focus indicator but I doubt it.
There are visual tells to when critical focus is achieved on a repeating subject pattern, a moiré pattern on the focus screen or display. The D850 is as good as the F3HP and F5 for manual focus on the matte surface so for now it's OK.
Dave
Just checked this morning: the D6 has the focus indicator as a white dot surrounded by two white arrows, who light up.
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Just checked this morning: the D6 has the focus indicator as a white dot surrounded by two white arrows, who light up.
What a shame. The red-green-red display was so easy to use with peripheral vision. If I and my eyes were younger I could shoot without glasses and use the DK-17M with my D850.
Dave
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Does anyone with inside knowledge know anything about the fate of the DK-17M? Not a new one to be found in the cosmos, and they have rapidly become a high ticket item on auction sites. I fear no more will be made, or that they stopped being made some time ago, and stock has run out.
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Snoogly,
I checked B&H Photo, NY, NY, USA and the DK-17M is back ordered. Hopefully it isn't discontinued. I'd be using one if I could read the displays on my D850 without my glasses. I'm probably repeating myself but I was able to use the DK-17M with my D2H while wearing glasses but not with my D300s and forward.
Dave
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Does anyone with inside knowledge know anything about the fate of the DK-17M? Not a new one to be found in the cosmos, and they have rapidly become a high ticket item on auction sites. I fear no more will be made, or that they stopped being made some time ago, and stock has run out.
I had one for sale if I can still find it.
https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=9284.msg154071#msg154071 (https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=9284.msg154071#msg154071)
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Please let me know if you find it!
I am in Japan though ...
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In Nikon store in my country it says that DK-17M is a discontinued product. You could try the Nikon store in your country to see availability.