NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Frank Fremerey on February 17, 2019, 17:48:35
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Today I have some time to test the negative scannig feature of the D850. Slide Scans are great, but negative scanning with the builtin function seems to be a disgrace:
https://petapixel.com/2017/10/24/review-nikon-d850s-negative-digitizer-isnt-ready-prime-time/
Nonetheless I will give it a try...
... if you have any own experience to share, feel free to do so.
For example it would be great if you had a RAW scanning workflow for the D850 as a color negative scanner
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My first hurdle: I press live view and "i" but the negative digitizer function is grayed out and cannot be selected as described in the nanual here:
https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/d850/de/05_live_view_04.html#negative_digitizer
solution: disable silent mode first!!!!
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I don't believe you are using Lightroom Frank, but for those that are, this fellow claims to have created a plugin to convert color neg film:
https://www.negativelabpro.com (https://www.negativelabpro.com)
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I don't believe you are using Lightroom Frank, but for those that are, this fellow claims to have created a plugin to convert color neg film:
https://www.negativelabpro.com (https://www.negativelabpro.com)
Thank you Keith ... Lr I do not use, Photoshop mainly and Nikon CNX-D
But there seems to be one for Photoshop too: https://www.colorperfect.com/oldneg.html?lang=en
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Good thing is, I have a reference for my conversion in the form of very nice contact sheets...
A first try of D850-builtin-Conversion does not seem to help :o
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Hi Frank.
One thing I found disappointing with CNX-D is that it doesn't do colour reversal very well.
I'm not sure what's missing, or why I can't get it to work, but CNX2 was close to perfect, for my purposes, and importantly easy to implement.
Someone gave me the tip to invert the levels/curves on an image(black to white and white to black) which works a treat in CNX2, then a bit of tweaking here and there(WB and exposure compensation .. etc) .. all on the raw file.
Was hoping for a better featured negative capture tool on the D850 till it came to be that it's only jpg capture.
So far I've used my D300 and then my D800E for the negatives I've digitized, and using CNX2 was a breeze to convert. Used a batch process to convert many in one process .. then tweaked each individual image on an as needed basis.
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Arthur: can you elaborate more on that subject please? How do you get rid of the orange mask e.g.?
I still own CNX2 and I can open D850 RAWs by opening them in CNXD first and then "send to" or "open with", where you can defineba programm to transfer the files to like Photoshop e.g.
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The problem with the orange mask is that it varies considerably, in both colour and in density, from film to film — even between ones with the same product-name but from a different batch.
I have never attempted to copy colour negatives with a camera but I have scanned and converted them to digital positives using SilverFasts' excellent software.
SilverFast has a NegaFix module which allows you to program-in the kind of film and then adjust for the degree of orangeness.
https://www.silverfast.com/highlights/negafix/en.html
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If anyone is looking, here is another method to remove the orange mask using photoshop and no extra software/plugins: https://www.iamthejeff.com/post/32/the-best-way-to-color-correct-c-41-negative-film-scans
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If anyone is looking, here is another method to remove the orange mask using photoshop and no extra software/plugins: https://www.iamthejeff.com/post/32/the-best-way-to-color-correct-c-41-negative-film-scans
Hey, great idea. I tried it with a mask and subtract which did not work, but divide I will try!!!
PS: tried it & did not work, sorry...
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Black & White negative is pretty straightforward:
1) builtin D850 crap
2) converted in Photoshop from RAW
both edited to what I found nice.
The D850 in camera conversion had less detail and more noise in the shadow
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slide scanning is also easy pleasy....
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slide scanning is also easy pleasy....
Looks like you forgot to invert black for white on the hair. ;)
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Looks like you forgot to invert black for white on the hair. ;)
this is 23 years ago...
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this is 23 years ago...
Just making a joke. I had a superabundance of hair in my youth but now I don’t even own a comb.
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Just making a joke. I had a superabundance of hair in my youth but now I don’t even own a comb.
I still have a superabundace of hair but the color changed as you noticed...
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Hey, great idea. I tried it with a mask and subtract which did not work, but divide I will try!!!
PS: tried it & did not work, sorry...
Strange, works for me quite well.
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I am in contact now with the developer of colorperfect for a test version
Here is a video on the plugin: https://www.colorperfect.com/colorperfect.html?lang=en
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First results from my still incompetent use of Color perfect (a German Engineer Software, well designed engine, gruesome GUI), compared to Nikon's ooc conversion result out of cam...
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Frank it looks like you are getting really good results from Color Perfect !
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Frank it looks like you are getting really good results from Color Perfect !
good software hard to learn. lots of video tutorials though, needs some time to grasp
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I sent a RAW with target pictured to the developer of ColorPerfect.
The first picture is what he came up with.
The second picture is my own development of one picture from my first film ever, taken with my ZENIT 11 & Zenitar 2.0/58mm...
*sweet memories*
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Arthur: can you elaborate more on that subject please? How do you get rid of the orange mask e.g.?
I still own CNX2 and I can open D850 RAWs by opening them in CNXD first and then "send to" or "open with", where you can defineba programm to transfer the files to like Photoshop e.g.
Orange mask will turn blue with the levels and curves tweak.
From that point(image with blue mask), you need to identify a possible white/grey/black area and use that as the WB point choice(any size, should do) from doing those two steps, your shaded raw file will become a proper coliur reversed image.
Tweak again as necessary from there.
I'll post a couple of screen grabs ASAP.
What you could try with the D850 files in CNXD to CNX2 .. once sent to CNX2, they will be tifs, save them as NEFs .. hopefully it will allow the option to edit WB and so on(never tried that myself).
will get when I can.
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OK, my bad .. it does work in CNX-D .. which is a bonus :D This way you maintain an NEF file workflow to the final output.
( actually forgot the specific process and thought it didn't work, but anyhow .. my bad)
Process is to get the NEF in CNX-D in negative colour.
The, the first two steps are invert the levels-curves graph and WB using dropper.
I find it's easier to do graph reversal(which does the colour reversal for me really well, then the orange cast turns to a blue cast(which is fine).
Just remember you want a white/grey/black reference point because the colour shift is very dramatic. I've yet to find an actual WB K value and tint setting that works using manual inputs.
Using the dropper to get close to a good WB edit, then tweak using the sliders(I just keep clicking near the point I think is 'whitest').
In my sample images, I clicked the door knob, but may have missed by a pixel compared to my actual edit of this negative, but then clicked on the white paint on the door, got better, just a bit too warm, then clicked paint again and got pretty much as this room is.
Images from this point are now colour reversed using just those two steps, and from here it's a matter of tweaking to bring out colour and contrast, as you see fit.
But there are a couple of caveats(which you would find anyhow) .. just a heads up. **
(http://members.optushome.com.au/aking83/CNX-D_film%20reversal/01_orange%20mask%20start.jpg)
Hopefully you can read my embedded text.
point is to note the std curve is from low on the left to high on the right. black to white. This is what you need to 'invert'. Basically you force black to white and white to black(on the RGB channels).
CNX2 is a little easier to work with this tool, on my PC(I have a 4K screen, and CNX-D doesn't scale well to it).
So in CNX-D what I do to get more control is to undock the levels-curves, get it into the middle of the screen, enlarge it as much as I can, and then grab each corner point with the mouse and drag up(on the LHS) and down(on the RHS).
What you're looking for on the CNX-D tool, is when the mouse cursor becoems the cross tool.
You may have a different experience than I have tho .. hardware dependent.
On my screen it's very fine/finicky to grab the actual points required to be dragged, so it's a bit hit and miss. If this happens for you, just keep persevering, it does work as shown below.
Next tip in using this tool. which ever end you drag first, don't drag it all the way to the opposite extreme to begin with. Just makes it harder to locate the opposite corner point.
eg. if I start with the blacks first, lower LH corner, I only drag it about 2/3rd of the way to the top of that LH scale. Then do the opposite for the brights, drag it down close to all the way to the lower corner.
Go back the darks 2/3rds of the way up and drag it further up. if you drag all the way, the mouse may be hard to locate onto the correct point of the curves tool.
All this will make sense once you play with a few times.
Also, on the first point alteration, you may see the screen go full white if you start with the blacks, or full black if you start with the brights. normal, will come good once the opposing point is adjusted.
(http://members.optushome.com.au/aking83/CNX-D_film%20reversal/02_remove%20orange%20mask.jpg)
This is basically done. the blue cast is now a WB setting. I think for me, because a used a halogen light source when I digitized the negative with the camera? .. not sure, but different light sources will have various WB effects.
Note the difference in the levels-curves gradient now. black is high, white is low. You can also tweak it's mid settings, to add/reduce contrast as needed too. I found some films NEEDED this to get contrast back, rather than add contrast via other means.
But overall, I use Picture Controls more and the other basic NEF edit tools.
Note too, some of the tools work in reverse, because you've reversed the tone scale. Exposure compensation is reversed. if you want brighter compensation you need to reduce it. ie. +1Ev compensation will darken the image now. The anomaly I've found is that the reverse use of the tools is random. Brightness works as normal, but then you may find that highlight and shadows works in reverse. ie. shadows darkens the image protecting highlights and vice versa!
(http://members.optushome.com.au/aking83/CNX-D_film%20reversal/03_WB%20dropper%20tool%20point.jpg)
Nicely colour reversed, just lacking saturation and contrast .. easy fixed with tweaking.
I use a combo of Picture Control, CCPs .. etc.
Note the location of where I used the WB dropper tool, even tho my reversed image was blue. This is my back door, and handle is metal grey, paint is white.
Chairs have a mid tan(timber) partly warm orangey tone, some cloth on the backrest is red .. etc.
(http://members.optushome.com.au/aking83/CNX-D_film%20reversal/04_%20basic%20editing%20to%20finish.jpg)
Some fiddling with Exp Comp, tone, etc. and the image is pretty much as is the print version of this negative.
The film used here was Extar 100, and I could extract more detail from the NEF shot in camera using the PB4, and a paddle(icecream stick) to burn the highlights (outside the door).
Note tho the CCP on the fence outside. That was to reduce brightness a little more, and to increase contrast a small amount.
One last tip. The hardest part is really the level-curves tool. It's most likely going to be the same setting over and over. I'd recommend to make this adjustment first, and none else, and then save that edit step.
In CNX-D this is a bit more fluent as a batch edit job to do, than in CNX2 as well.
if you find this processing system works for you and you have multiple images to process, what you'd do is to create that levels/curves edit just the once. In the drop down menu where it says [Recorded Settings], hit the drop down and then click [Register].
Choose a name for the save file(I used Negative Reversal), and done.
Now, for your captured negatives, use the film strip, click on each image(to highlight) that you want to colour reverse before you do anything else.
Cntrl-A to select all of them. Then open the Levels-Curves tool, use the drop down to locate you saved "Negative Reversal" batch save, and all highlighted images will receive the save process.
They all shift from orange to blue(or whatever other tint they start with) .. but from this point it's the easy stuff of WB and tweaking.
I find the most annoying part is just the finicky levels and curves setting.
I also did the same in CNX2 as well, but as said earlier, to do this is in CNX2 requires a few more mouse clicks .. CNX-D makes it a couple of click affair .. easy as!
Hope that helps, really is easy to do.
When I get a chance I'll post the print version of that negative for comparison too.
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Arthur: thank you soooo much!!!
I did not see your post on the weekend, must have acvidentially deleted the link. Yes. I will try your way too. Currently I am very happy to have found Colorperfect and good support from them. Look:
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Here is the Nikon direct scan in camera conversion & an edit from that:
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first try with the Arthur method ist very promising!!!
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All three methods deliver at my current level of knowledge only starting points for an edit. With the CNX-D and the Colorperfect methods there are at least tweaks, so I can learn. With the Nikon D850 internal conversion there is no tweak, I can only eat what comes to the table. Colors are a tad better if I do a full frame scan, but then I cannot focus anymore, the piece of film is to near to the front lens then. The ES-2 is far from ideal in that respect. What I could do though is to change to the PB4-bellows-system in the hope for a closer focus...
a. D850
b. NX-D
c. Colorperfect
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.... What I could do though is to change to the PB4-bellows-system in the hope for a closer focus...
Highly recommended!
That's what I use.
Although you could use a PB-5 or PB-6 plus their respective film holder attachments.
Only reason I chose the PB-4 is the ability to 'tilt-shift' the lensboard, where the PB-5 and 6's don't allow that.
Lenses I've tried on the PB-4 so far, that I like their operational ability are my old Tamron 28-75, and Nikon 50/1.2.
I also have some dedicated macro lenses too that I can use like the Novoflex Travenon 135, Schneider 35/2, EL nikkors(75, 105 and 135) and a really cheap Amar 105/4.5 .. but I prefer the ease and quality of the Tamron and then the 50/1.2 for now.
I use a D800E, and I found it's a waste of time trying to get the sharpest image possible on many older films(never tried really slow films tho. Grain is the issue and lack of focus or lens sharpness from the taking camera/lens combo.
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I use PB4 with the micro Nikkor 55 f/2.8, seems to work perfectly with my D800. The slides I have been digitising so far have been poorly exposed, with deep shadow areas, by bracketing 5 exposures at .3 stop intervals I can select either the best, or HDR the best exposure range of the set, or all of them. I simply throw the NEF's away afterwards and keep the TIFF output .
As for Negatives I have't started on them yet but when I have done it in the past I have reversed the image in Ps and done white balance on an appropriate part of the image to get rid of the orange hue. Usually works just fine. I agree with Arthur about sharpness, I also have some issues with getting the entire slide in focus at once, I have used manual focus bracketing with bad examples, Helicon focus stacker extracts a reasonable image in those cases.
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my reason to use the PB4 is: I own one