NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Michael Erlewine on October 02, 2018, 09:43:47
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This whole “banding” issue with the Z7 is something I hope one of you reading this can better explain to me. From what little I can gather, it is more easily seen in video rather than in stills.
Some critics suggest it is an anomaly mostly caused by artificial lighting and not a problem in natural daylight. Is it? And others say it is linked to only dark areas in a photo. And it is said that it is most obvious in Silent Mode, because like rolling-shutter, that mode takes more time to read the sensor and is thus the effect is introduced.
At any rate, some of the more technical photographers are worried about it and are in the process of checking it out. In any case, the banding effect seems to be slight and only even appears if we push the dark areas of a photo in post well beyond what is usual. Or, they say high shutter speeds and ISO are more prone to it. There are (at this point) all kinds of reports, not yet all aligned with one another.
As you can see, I am somewhat confused by this question, but also very interested to know how serious it is and how it will affect the work I do.
I wonder if anyone here has explored this with their Z7 (I have not received mine yet) and have opinions or a more confirmed explanation of what might be causing it or even if it is a problem.
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Z7 seems to suffer from another banding issue which is caused by the on-chip PDAF sensors:
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review/7?utm_source=self-desktop&utm_medium=marquee&utm_campaign=traffic_source
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Ming Thein had this to say about the banding issue when I asked him:
"I saw it once when pushing contrast in an ISO 1600 long exposure (astrophotography experiment with the wrong lenses on hand) but that’s all. Normal exposure times don’t show anything that I’ve been able to detect so far, regardless of sensitivity."
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The banding issue I mentioned would be annoying when one needs to prevent the highlight from being blown out and raise the shadow quite a bit, which I sometimes do.
But maybe you won't be in such a situation, so long as you use the camera for what you have been exploring.
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i believe you’re referring to two different things. under artificial light with a “refresh rate,” the fully electronic shutter of either the d850 or z7 produce very noticeable, fuzzy horizontal bands of light and dark. very noticeable and difficult to remove.
the z7 also exhibits, under really extreme circumstances, fine grained pattern noise which some suggest is related to the phase detect focus points. not sure if that’s true or not, but you’re much less likely to encounter this unless you’re really pushing the dynamic range.
it’s illustrated here:
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/Sensor_Heatmaps.htm#mode=55,camera=Nikon%20Z%207,suffix=14,cameraC=NIKON%20D850,suffixC=14
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i believe you’re referring to two different things. under artificial light with a “refresh rate,” the fully electronic shutter of either the d850 or z7 produce very noticeable, fuzzy horizontal bands of light and dark. very noticeable and difficult to remove.
the z7 also exhibits, under really extreme circumstances, fine grained pattern noise which some suggest is related to the phase detect focus points. not sure if that’s true or not, but you’re much less likely to encounter this unless you’re really pushing the dynamic range.
it’s illustrated here:
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/Sensor_Heatmaps.htm#mode=55,camera=Nikon%20Z%207,suffix=14,cameraC=NIKON%20D850,suffixC=14
Thanks, that is very helpful.
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Reading photography gears reviews and images critiques is turning to be a very entertaining succession of moments.
So there is a guy who "allegedly" is shooting side by side the same chart or scene with a D850 and a Z7.
Lo and behold, he discovers that banding occurs heavier in the Z7 than the D850 when the EV is pushed between +4EV and +6EV !!!!
Yeah, right, one guy is on low ISO but only shows the ISO and speed.
Another guy goes up to ISO40000+ ???????
And the third guy had banding shooting the stars!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! at long exposure!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Really? I mean really?
I once put my Iphone in my back pocket and the camera was turned on by mistake. I only found out when my bum became hot. Me think I should do a review on the Iphone with he negative point that if you keep your Iphone camera on, it will warm up your bum. Or it could be perceived as an additional benefit for the Iphone for the so inclined people.............. Dohhh
Well, it is very entertaining to a certain degree reading comedian reviewers!
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good explanation of the PDAF built-in sensor causing banding
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/10/02/tony-northrup-compares-the-nikon-z7-image-quality-with-the-d850-canon-eos-r-and-sony-a7r-iii-cameras.aspx/
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The banding seems to be very similar to what I saw on the Leica SL when lifting exposure or shadows in PP which I do on some images,,,
http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,1833.msg23602/topicseen.html#msg23602
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The banding seems to be very similar to what I saw on the Leica SL when lifting exposure or shadows in PP which I do on some images,,,
Erik, so far as I understand, the AF of Leica SL is CD only and the snsor doesn't have PDAF photosites. So, the cause of the banding should be different...
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Yes I agree, this may be different causes, but the point it that it makes it impossible to edit the image more than a few stops in PP, since it's nearly impossible to remove this banding.
Please note the the SL sample posted by me was at ISO 125 and not an uncommon scene where one would lift shadows,,,
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Yes I agree, this may be different causes, but the point it that it makes it impossible to edit the image more than a few stops in PP, since it's nearly impossible to remove this banding.
Please note the the SL sample posted by me was at ISO 125 and not an uncommon scene where one would lift shadows,,,
Yes, I remember your sample image suffering from the banding. IIRC, the last Nikon DSLR that suffereed from the banding noise (for whatever reason) was D7100, but only at very high ISO settings.
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I remember banding was easily induced wih the D700.
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I don't recall there was a banding issue with D700, do you have a link for that?
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IIRC, the last Nikon DSLR that suffered from the banding noise (for whatever reason) was D7100, but only at very high ISO settings.
My experience is that D7100 shows most pronounced banding at base ISO (100) with exposure compensation + shadow lifting. (I usually try too keep it to max +1EV exposure compensation + 50% shadow lifting to avoid problems). At higher ISO it will be buried in the noise, so it will then not show in practical situations. I have yet to see it in severely stretched astro images recorded at ISO 1600. Bill Claff has some tests on his site, http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/Sensor_Heatmaps.htm (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/Sensor_Heatmaps.htm)
The Z7 raw files I have examined (from DPR) shows similar properties with respect to being most pronounced near base ISO, but much less severe, and more regular/finer banding pattern than D7100. It also seems inconsequential as to when it then shows up in the Z7 images.
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I don't recall there was a banding issue with D700, do you have a link for that?
Under certain circumstances e.g. streetlights, iso 3200 and higher, highlights and contrasts i noticed banding.
Google search provided these links,
https://www.google.nl/search?client=opera&q=nikon+d700+banding&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 (https://www.google.nl/search?client=opera&q=nikon+d700+banding&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)
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I believe I will get my Z7 today, so I will quickly have something to say, because I shoot ISO 64 and like shadows. It will either be good enough or it won't. I like the idea of a more portable camera along with my other ones. An I love Nikon cameras.
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I believe I will get my Z7 today, so I will quickly have something to say, because I shoot ISO 64 and like shadows. It will either be good enough or it won't. I like the idea of a more portable camera along with my other ones. An I love Nikon cameras.
It will be nice to hear results from someone who is deliberate and thorough like you. Good luck!
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Under certain circumstances e.g. streetlights, iso 3200 and higher, highlights and contrasts i noticed banding.
Google search provided these links,
https://www.google.nl/search?client=opera&q=nikon+d700+banding&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8 (https://www.google.nl/search?client=opera&q=nikon+d700+banding&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8)
OK, so not similar to the Z7 banding apparently.
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Michael, I'm sure that a photographer and videographer like you will appreciate the compact Z7! Enjoy ;)
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I can observe some slight banding in very dark areas on ISO64 shots which have been pulled up at least 4-5 stops. Something I never did before and might never do again, but of course YMMV.
If this banding ever becomes an issue, one get get rid of the banding by using DFine, which is part of the Nik collection (nikcollection.dxo.com). DFine has a horizontal/vertical banding removal tool (use the horizontal). It works well.
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If the camera firmware corrects the Raw file for pincushion or barrel distortion etc, and then the need to run a PP cleanup software, image quality will suffer.
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If the camera firmware corrects the Raw file for pincushion or barrel distortion etc, and then the need to run a PP cleanup software, image quality will suffer.
By "painting" the PP cleanup on affected areas only, it shouldn't be that much of a problem other than work.
I wouldn't be suprised that a firmware update is in the making which solves most of the the issue in raw...
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I would be very surprised if Nikon could fix this with a firmware update. Since [/size]I think Nikon will stay away from 'messing' too much with such 'image degrading' corrections in the firmware on the Raw files.
It's quite clear that the image I posted in the Leica SL thread had been distortion corrected in the Raw file,,, one of the main reasons for staying away from the Leica SL for my part.
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I believe I will get my Z7 today, so I will quickly have something to say, because I shoot ISO 64 and like shadows. It will either be good enough or it won't. I like the idea of a more portable camera along with my other ones. An I love Nikon cameras.
i too shoot iso 64 all the time in very high DR scenes and push shadows hard.
i've been able to see it with some very extreme pushing that i would not do in real use.
shooting directly into the sun, iso 64, f/4.
(http://www.431.org/ng/1073-backlit-1280.jpg)
pushing by a couple stops, no noise reduction at all, shadows +100, and other abuse yields this in 100% crop at the top left.
(http://www.431.org/ng/1073-banding-c.jpg)
if it is solely related to the PD sites on the sensor (i don't think it is) this might be something they can improve with firmware. i'm not too worried about it.
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here's another illustration of the (tiny) magnitude of the problem.
full scene (resized) - z7, 70-200 f/4g, 200mm, 1/1000s, f/4, iso 64, processed in ACR.
(http://www.431.org/ng/z7/1147-morningFog-1280.jpg)
1:1 crop of dark area of same scene but shot at 1/2500s then pushed 4.5 stops with shadows at +70, contrast, clarity, blacks all cranked.
(http://www.431.org/ng/z7/1148-example-c.jpg)
i'm not worried about this. i shoot scenes like this a lot but tend to keep the dark areas dark and not push exposure so much, which eliminates this as a visible problem.
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here's another illustration of the (tiny) magnitude of the problem.
full scene (resized) - z7, 70-200 f/4g, 200mm, 1/1000s, f/4, iso 64, processed in ACR.
1:1 crop of dark area of same scene but shot at 1/2500s then pushed 4.5 stops with shadows at +70, contrast, clarity, blacks all cranked.
i'm not worried about this. i shoot scenes like this a lot but tend to keep the dark areas dark and not push exposure so much, which eliminates this as a visible problem.
Looks very minor indeed.
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And easy to get rid of with Dfine (from Nik collection)
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Yes I agree, this may be different causes, but the point it that it makes it impossible to edit the image more than a few stops in PP, since it's nearly impossible to remove this banding.
Please note the the SL sample posted by me was at ISO 125 and not an uncommon scene where one would lift shadows,,,
To be honest, often in PP, and with my Long Exposures, banding isn’t a uncommon thing at all. I’ve still not used a camera which i haven’t seen banding in.