NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Frank Fremerey on July 07, 2017, 22:14:35
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382145434144 eBay item
The seller is platinum power with 98% customer satisfaction.
The fish sells for 1016 UK Sterling, which equals 1156€ shipped within the EU.
Can I buy there with trust???
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98% rating - stay off. That's bad.
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Hi Frank,
as i do not know if he is an official Nikon dealer. His ratings are good and you can use PayPal: Why not try it?
Harald
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98% rating is *not* good on eBay - it's poor.
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Hi,
i read the last negative ratings because i know of fake reviews or ratings. 98% positive ratings with over 32000 customers is good: The last reviws are about wrong color or nothing on stock . Not perfect but good. I would not buy in this shop: He is selling everything so i do not know from where these lenses are. As he is in Great Britain and the price is hit i am expecting shipping from Hong Kong and tax fraud....
Harald
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32000 customers and 98% rating is bad. Believe me. One wants the rating of volume sellers to be well above 99.5%.
Paypal might "protect" you so you won't lose too much money, but the frustrations of bad deals stay. Plus conflict resolution takes quite some time.
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This thing 382145434144 can't be recognizable by E-Bay system. Are you sure its ## correct?
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This thing 382145434144 can't be recognizable by E-Bay system. Are you sure its ## correct?
I think I found it.
http://tinyurl.com/y8j6syan
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Yes, thank you! Frank, it is from HK (not NK, typo), so, it will be unrepairable in Germany, as well as in the USA. Price is attractive - $1309, but Him only knows... I would pass on it. LZ
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Yes, thank you! Frank, it is from NK, so, it will be unrepairable in Germany, as well as in the USA. Price is attractive - $1309, but Him only knows... I would pass on it. LZ
He's asking for British Pounds Sterling, the lens in France, the seller is in Kowloon, Hong Kong, they don't ship to the USA.
How did you determine that the lens is from NK? Did I miss that on the ebay website? Where's my eyeglass cleaner....
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pass.. and wait for someone reputable.. like the store at the corner.. since this is a new lens availability won't be a problem.
if you look at the neg feedback it appears he relays stock from all over and doesn't always get it.
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To have a warranty don't you have to buy from an authorized Nikon dealer? If you don't know the dealer isn't it prudent to check Nikon and verify that the dealer claiming to be (to be or not to be...) an authorized dealer actually is such?
Take a pass or leave a pass! Or just pass!
Dave
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I would trust that the offer is serious. The trouble you acquire might be even more serious.
Dave who is waiting for a friend here in Loma Lizard where it's 113*F (45*C) interested in the shade. [Stupid phone puts words in my fingers.]
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"depending on where you are we ship from Hongkong or our warehouse in France or Germany" Strange sentence.
Amazon.co.uk does not have the lens in stock. Normally I use to buy there when the pound is low and the Euro is high as it is currently. Amazon.co.uk last time shipped EU product from Germany to Germany for a price that looked like tax fraud to me, registered as a private customer.
The EU and the UK deal with the tax problem. The UK says they collect the tax from Amazon in case they police it. Customer is off the hook.
If I buy in the US I pay roughly the same as I would pay with the eBay seller in question, only added import tax to the item, egliable for later deduction in my company's tax return.
As I pay no taxes for the eBay.co.uk item I do not get a return. No one it hurt.
Only thing I ask myself and this is truly important is: will the item be included in my NPS setup?
Genuine US is roughly 1300€ including import tax of 19% deductible later.
Brick and mortar price in Germany is 1500€ va tax of 19% deduction later.
For two hundred I work two hours at a customer site and edit another two ours before writing a bill or I invite my family to a luxurious restaurant visit or cook a great meal with great wine for my friends.
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Question: supporting Nikon is important for me. Where do I buy to support Nikon best? Can I buy from them directly? Yes the question is unrelated to this thread, but contributes to my decision making on where to buy.
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Frank,
I can buy directly from Nikon USA. I'd check with the official Nikon website in your region. It should be obvious if you can.
Dave
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32000 customers, 98% positive.
32000*0.02=640!!!!!!!! negative feedbacks.
This is negating the neutral ones and people who are pissed but didn't bother leaving a review. I don't leave negative reviews personally, despite many negative experiences with Ebay sellers.
Trust me, this is trash. 32000 customers, and a 99.5% above is considered good in my book. 99.6-100% is considered brilliant -- trust me, those sellers do exist. Oh and even from China, as atrocious most are on Ebay.
Stay away. Some just take your money, put it in a bank for interest and ship when there's enough stock to dispatch at once, they will refund immediately once you question them. 98% is utterly garbage.
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Nikon.de wants 1500€ incl VAT, which is 1260 Euros sans VAT and they say I have to wait till it is in stock. From the USA I can get it shipped for the German net price including import tax.
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Frank, both my a7RII (€2200 instead 3500) and 100-400 MKII (1699 instead 2069) are from www.e-infin.com
They also have the fish in stock for €1149, shipped incl tax:
https://www.e-infin.com/eu/item/3347/nikon_af-s_fisheye_nikkor_8-15mm_f/3.5-4.5e_ed_lens
Actually it is an grey import, shipped to London and then relabelled for EU shipping (no longer possible after Brexit). In case it does get picked up by customs they will reimburse whatever you had to pay. Shipping is surprisingly quick, something 3 days or so. They are also on ebay with a 99,3% rating ;)
I used to buy local in the NL but was getting a little tired of all the shops selling camera gear for MSRP, even two years after introduction (kartel pricing anyone??).
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Nikon.de wants 1500€ incl VAT, which is 1260 Euros sans VAT and they say I have to wait till it is in stock. From the USA I can get it shipped for the German net price including import tax.
Strange. In the Netherlands they are available at the on-line retailers (I checked 3)
For €1539,00 (incl. 21% VAT).
I got mine a couple of weeks back. :D
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Hi Frank,
as i do not know if he is an official Nikon dealer. His ratings are good and you can use PayPal: Why not try it?
Harald
this is false. I wouldn't consider buying from someone unless their rating is above 99.6 or 99.7%.
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On my way just now to pick up a sample of the 8-15 myself. I need a fisheye for some underwater shots and my trustworthy 16/2.8 has developed weak perimeter sharpness - something is amiss with it. I contemplated getting the 16/2.8 AFD as an intermediate solution, but as the 8-15 now is available at my dealer's and I got a good price on it (not permitted to say but lower than Chris'), the obvious answer was plainly to see.
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On my way just now to pick up a sample of the 8-15 myself. I need a fisheye for some underwater shots and my trustworthy 16/2.8 has developed weak perimeter sharpness - something is amiss with it. I contemplated getting the 16/2.8 AFD as an intermediate solution, but as the 8-15 now is available at my dealer's and I got a good price on it (not permitted to say but lower than Chris'), the obvious answer was plainly to see.
;) Awesome! I'll be waiting to see some interesting reviews.
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Very helpful post, JA! I hope we take the photo ralley A'dam together and finally find friendship at the bottom of some decent bottles and in our united interest in sustainability and autarkic life of cell structure ....
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Here in Tokyo, a reputable retailer (where I buy things most often) sells the fisheye zoom for 132,500 JPY. So, the price the eBay seller offers should not be abnormally cheap. It is rather normal.
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Interesting thread for me as one who needs to rely on Nikon equipment imported here by Nikon USA, unless I want to forego any Nikon USA warranty, have Nikon USA service or repair the product, ever, for any reason.
Not all posters here seem concerned about it, so maybe they don't face the same situation in their country. :-\
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There are countries in which Nikon has a relaxed and customer-friendly policy.
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There are countries in which Nikon has a relaxed and customer-friendly policy.
That is encouraging, too bad it doesn't apply here.
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Hi,
this is false. I wouldn't consider buying from someone unless their rating is above 99.6 or 99.7%.
Why? I am in this business and a REAL rating better then 90% is impossible.
This is Amazon Germany:
https://de.trustpilot.com/review/www.amazon.de
I am very satisfied with Amazon. ;)
Harald
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I am happy if it is above 98% because in Germany many people complain for no good reason. If you manage to contain that to less the 2% you are very good. I read the negative feedback and if it is about idiots basically complain about their own stupidity, I will order.
BUT if I remember stuff like: Item listed as available immediately and only ships weeks later or no reaction from service or used item sold as new .... Serious stuff I mean, I would never buy there despite 98%
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PS I gave the JA connection a try.
See how it will work for me
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That is encouraging, too bad it doesn't apply here.
+1
A number of years back Nikon USA would not even tell me if a used Nikon F3HP I was buying for KEH.com was a Nikon USA import or a gray import. I was told, "No one here [Nikon USA] will divulge that information."
Dave
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Many of my equipment items have "US" written all over them as if US stuff is better and would not be produced in the same factory as EU stuff or Asian stuff. I buy Nikon and Nikkor. Both are clearly not made in Trumpland. They are made in Asia. So the most genuine stuff should be of Japanese origin, right? My 1.4/24G was made in the Sendai plant before quake and tsunami hit. My D3 has 5 US designations glued to it. Is it a better D3 than one I would have bought in Hong Kong or Berlin? Absurd!!!
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There are not separate factories or assembly lines for cameras or lenses destined for USA or any other region for that matter, they are all made the same. The only difference is who imports them, and how they are supported (warranties etc).
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Many of my equipment items have "US" written all over them as if US stuff is better and would not be produced in the same factory as EU stuff or Asian stuff. I buy Nikon and Nikkor. Both are clearly not made in Trumpland. They are made in Asia. So the most genuine stuff should be of Japanese origin, right? My 1.4/24G was made in the Sendai plant before quake and tsunami hit. My D3 has 5 US designations glued to it. Is it a better D3 than one I would have bought in Hong Kong or Berlin? Absurd!!!
Sorry, Frank, but you're very mistaken about why Nikon USA has an issue with non-us Nikon equipment. Non US Nikon gear merely means that it wasn't imported by Nikon USA, so as far as Nikon USA is concerned that stuff is grey market. That also means that Nikon USA didn't make any money off of it, thus they will not touch it, for any price. Nobody, aside from you, has suggested that the US Nikon gear is any better than any other Nikon gear, it's all made in the same factories, regardless of where it goes after it's made.
Nikon creates the equipment that becomes Nikon USA gear, and they also create the grey market stuff, so blame them for the mess.
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My D3 has 5 US designations glued to it. Is it a better D3 than one I would have bought in Hong Kong or Berlin?
If the Nikon equipment you buy has Nikon USA on then presumably it was originally exported to the USA. The serial numbers are different for different regions. The USA all over the product is to help the US customer buy a product that Nikon USA will service. If the product was not imported by Nikon USA they will not service it in or out of warranty.
Dave
If some item was bought during international travel or if one moves to the US from elsewhere there may be hoops for one to jump through to get service from Nikon USA. I'm not sure one way or the other. An item can always be shipped to Japan for service.
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Gosh. Am I happy to live in Germany. I am a global photographer using stuff from Nikon my trusted global supplier who pays an independent local service provider to service the stuff via NPS. Nikon USA seems to run a different business model. Did anyone see a camera for the EU plastered full with "EU" stickers?
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My understanding is that:
1. Nikon USA will service non-US serial numbered Nikon products IF they were purchased in a non-gray scenario.
2. There have been anecdotal reports going back 10 years that purchasers in countries other than the USA have purchased Nikon products that carry the 'US' prefix on the serial number. So, if true, the 'US' designation on the lens/camera does not necessarily mean it is a USA market item. Nikon assigns the serial numbers(US-prefixed or not) to each country or regional official importer as Nikon sees fit.
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Thank you, Keith. Sounds more like a franchise policy than a dependence of a Japanese venture
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I believe but am hardly certain, that Nikon USA will service any equipment subject to an international recall (eg D600, D750) regardless of where it was originally purchased or what sales region its serial number reflects. HOWEVER in all other instances, to the best of my knowledge, Nikon USA WILL NOT even touch a "gray market", ie out-of-region, product requiring any kind of service call, regardless of whether or not it is still under warranty at its point of purchase. There might be an exception for NPS members -- I don't know. Here in New York City, we occasionally get lucky with an item bearing a Canadian serial number [sic], especially if still under warranty, because the price of shipping to our cousins in the Great White North for repair is not hideously prohibitive. And the repair itself might cost less, too -- if one doesn't factor the expense then incurred shipping the item back to you. I even knew someone years ago who regularly commuted to Canada by car who really benefited in that regard.
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Thank you, Keith. Sounds more like a franchise policy than a dependence of a Japanese venture
Keep in mind that not every country has the same laws governing warranties and the sale of goods, including different taxes, and consumer protection laws. It costs manufacturers real money to comply with these laws, warranty work itself costs money, and if that cost isn't built into the sale price of items, then the official servicing facility loses money. Every "baby" Nikon, Nikon USA, Nikon Canada, etc, has to stand on it's own, and they operate independently. This comes down to how far each "baby" Nikon is willing to go in the name of customer service, or perhaps more appropriately how much it will cost them.
The grey market phenomenon isn't restricted to photo gear, and it certainly is not restricted to the USA. You say it's important to you to support Nikon, but you, like most of us, look to buy your Nikon gear at the best price you can get. That might not support the "baby" Nikon where you live, even though it supports the manufacturer, Nikon Japan.
We can buy grey market Nikon gear all day long here in the US, it's perfectly legal, but it is not warrantied, or subject to service, by Nikon USA. Yes, you can send it to Japan for service under Niko's International warranty, and good luck with that if you don't speak the language. Sellers (B&H, Adorama, etc) can offer their own warranty on grey market goods, but how effective that might be with modern high tech gear that Nikon will not sell parts for to third party service facilities, is an open question. One might expect extended delays in getting the items serviced under those conditions. Not only will Nikon USA not sell parts or technical info for this gear, they won't train non-Nikon people to use the special equipment needed to do the work.
Some grey market items differ from official imports because they were made to comply with different laws and/or marketing situations. Cars are a very good example of this, and all cars registered in the US have to meet US safety standards that might not apply to the region that the cars were originally intended for.
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+1
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Fact of the matter is that in 10 years I've never send a premium camera or lens in for service so why pay for the privilege?
I've sold 1300 euro lenses secondhand for 650 because one can buy a new grey import for that price, in the good old days I sold used lenses for 80-85% of the local new price so checking out new lenses was rather doable but I can't justify doing that when loosing half the investment in less than 2 years.
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Fact of the matter is that in 10 years I've never send a premium camera or lens in for service so why pay for the privilege?
I've sold 1300 euro lenses secondhand for 650 because one can buy a new grey import for that price, in the good old days I sold used lenses for 80-85% of the local new price so checking out new lenses was rather doable but I can't justify doing that when loosing half the investment in less than 2 years.
Don't misunderstand, JA. I don't pay any more than i have to for Nikon gear, but, if I want to be covered by warranty then I'm forced to ignore Nikon grey market stuff. Todays bodies and lenses are mostly high tech items, so I want a warranty if it turns out to be needed, and I want to be able to use Nikon USA after the warranty period, if necessary. Most of my gear is just fine and has not been in need of service, but I will pay for the peace of mind knowing that Nikon is available if I need them. YMMV
Some Nikon gear is prone to service, even if it sits unused, for example my 20-35 f/2.8 zoom with the man-auto sliding ring on the lens collar. Mine is getting sticky, so I either need to have it serviced or sell it. Granted, that is not one of today's high tech lenses, so I don't have to go through Nikon USA for service unless I want to. But the point is that sometimes service is needed. Unlike you, i have yet to sell one Nikon lens or body, I keep what I buy, and unless somebody makes me a good offer on the 20-35, it will stay here. Now with digital I have that focal range covered by my 12-24 f/4 DX, and Sigma 17-50 f/2.8.
Evidently, if I understand Bjørn, you can use Nikon service with your grey market items if you need to, I can't. OTOH, if you trade gear that often it's costly to always have the latest gear. I have no problem with people buying grey market, but it just doesn't work for me. You won't find many Nikon shooters here in the US that buy grey market gear because of the lack of Nikon USA support.
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I know there are multiple issues with gray market but I principally blame the mother ship. Nikon USA however is so un-customer centric that it will not aid a customer in avoiding buying gray market used products. That to me is unconscionable. Nikon USA is also refusing to sell part in California which is against California law. Last I knew a law suite was in progress. If Nikon USA loses they will still put a lot of independent repair facilities out of business. Some of the parts sold in would most certainly find their way to other states where it is legal to not sell parts. Again I blame all of this on the Nikon Japan for not having a world wide policy.
Gray market? In the USA it's not gray it perfectly legal because Nikon Japan owns Nikon USA (or something along those lines). It's an alternate "white market" but gray market is the accepted term though incorrect.
Dave
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"Grey market" is a obviously a marketing term to separate two markets. One higher price market for the people intimidated by fake news the other, cheaper, for the people wilder at heart.
If you care to follow the "What the nerds do" section of this forum people here in general tend to not be on the totally lost cowardish side, so we generally pay less, meaning Nikon gets their treat but the channel gets less.
I subscribe to this wealth distribution scheme
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2. There have been anecdotal reports going back 10 years that purchasers in countries other than the USA have purchased Nikon products that carry the 'US'
That's right. I have had lenses reported to me with US prefix on the serial number that were bought new in Europe. I also know of lenses bought new in USA with US guarantee that don't have the US prefix, even though the same lens has a series with the US prefix. Note: the US prefix is on the lens only, it is not on the box or guarantee sheet. Also note that not all lenses have a separate series for US, most do, but some have one series world-wide. Nikon is somewhat inconsistent on this, even within the fairly modern and well defined f/1.8 series of prime lenses.
So, the absence or presence of the US prefix on a lens is a useful guide not a guarantee either way, the only way to be sure is to have the guarantee sheet.
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"Grey market" is a obviously a marketing term to separate two markets. One higher price market for the people intimidated by fake news the other, cheaper, for the people wilder at heart.
If you care to follow the "What the nerds do" section of this forum people here in general tend to not be on the totally lost cowardish side, so we generally pay less, meaning Nikon gets their treat but the channel gets less.
I subscribe to this wealth distribution scheme
So, according to you, if people in the US don't favor grey market gear because of price, thus foregoing any warranty, or service, EVER, via Nikon USA, then they are cowards? Frank, you, completely fail to see that everyone in every country is not subject to the same situation that you and some others enjoy. With all due respect to those that follow the "What The Nerds Do" section, I can tell you that they don't pay for my photo gear. There an old American Indian saying that fits very well here "Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes".
It's best if I drop out of this thread.
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"Grey market" is a obviously a marketing term to separate two markets. One higher price market for the people intimidated by fake news the other, cheaper, for the people wilder at heart.
It's not fake news, it's a reality here in the U.S. and has been for a long time. I'm not concerned over grey-market status for old lenses and film cameras which can be repaired by third party repair shops using parts from deceased units. However, for recent and expensive digital bodies in particular, the problem of losing access to post-warranty repairs is a serious matter. I have been willing to take chances on refurbished and even used items, with generally good luck so far, but not grey-market digital bodies. It's a matter of risk management rather than mere risk aversion.
It may be fun to be wild, until the consequences bring one back down to harsh reality.
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Just to be extra clear: 'Gray market' is not "Out of region". Gray market refers only to whether or not the original purchase was made in the Nikon-designated regional market to which the item was originally assigned by Nikon HQ.
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So, according to you, if people in the US don't favor grey market gear because of price, thus foregoing any warranty, or service, EVER, via Nikon USA, then they are cowards? Frank, you, completely fail to see that everyone in every country is not subject to the same situation that you and some others enjoy. With all due respect to those that follow the "What The Nerds Do" section, I can tell you that they don't pay for my photo gear. There an old American Indian saying that fits very well here "Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes".
It's best if I drop out of this thread.
I apologize. I did not want to annoy anyone. I sometimes buy at the local brick and mortar because I have a genuine interest that he survives as part of my infrastructure.
My rant was meant from my position as a marketing advisor to companies. Sometimes you need to sell the same product to different groups of people.
What you do is repackage or if you do not want to go so far you create different channels with different a narrative and different asking prices.
If you sell warrenties as an insurance customers can have a similar security as they would have with maker warrenties or you can buy without insurance and close a deal with a private insurance, whatever seems appropriate for your case.
I do in fact not see any point in paying more for the same package. My D500 was one of the first in Germany. I paid an extra premium to have the camera early.
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I apologize. I did not want to annoy anyone. I sometimes buy at the local brick and mortar because I have a genuine interest that he survives as part of my infrastructure.
My rant was meant from my position as a marketing advisor to companies. Sometimes you need to sell the same product to different groups of people.
What you do is repackage or if you do not want to go so far you create different channels with different a narrative and different asking prices.
If you sell warrenties as an insurance customers can have a similar security as they would have with maker warrenties or you can buy without insurance and close a deal with a private insurance, whatever seems appropriate for your case.
I do in fact not see any point in paying more for the same package. My D500 was one of the first in Germany. I paid an extra premium to have the camera early.
Apology accepted, Frank. I too like having a brick and mortar pro shop close at hand, and i know how hard it is to pay the premium for doing business with them instead of shopping online when looking at expensive equipment.
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There an old American Indian saying that fits very well here "Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes".
I think it was "Moccasins." :)
I've hand one defective Nikkor lens in the last year. If I'd bought gray I have had to send the lens to Japan.
If the lens were an AIS Nikkor and it was defective on receipt I'd buy it where I can return it. If it were to fail down the road I'd be able to find repair or repair it myself.
Nikon USA is pretty nasty about this gray market thing. With a high tech lens there are things that can go wrong. I have a D800 and three lenses that probably should go in for calibration but I'd be without my primary camera without an acceptable backup. My backup is too old. If I bought gray I'd have to send them to Japan. For a time I considered buying from Nikon Canada but I'm not sure they are much better than Nikon USA. That's how pissed I was at Nikon USA. I don't like dealing with Nikon USA. If I hadn't started with Nikon in 1970 and restarted after a two~three year absence (planed) in 1978 I'd probably be using Canon. I like my Nikon equipment I don't like Nikon USA.
Anyway Carl has explained this USA/Gray thing to quite to my satisfaction.
Dave Hartman
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... I sometimes buy at the local brick and mortar because I have a genuine interest that he survives as part of my infrastructure. ...
The three brick and mortar stores I bought from have all closed.
The first: Gayson's Camera, Glendale CA gave me an open account in 1970 or 71. They were moved five times for the Glendale Gonorrhoea Shopping Mauls I, II, III, IV and failed in about 1987. A few misspellings were intentional.
The second was: Lee-Mac Camera Exchange, Pasadena CA. They gave me my second open account in 1977. Held out until about 2004. I still had an open account there and drove 65 miles to get personalized service.
In 1990 I moved and started buying from Redlands Camera, Redlands, CA. I guess they failed about the time eBay got popular. They needed trade-ins and the sales of used equipment.
I was known on a first name basis to the managers, sales managers and made friends with salesmen. The local that I can touch some new Nikon cameras and lenses is Best Buy or as some call it Worst Buy. I buy from New York now. It's too much for me to drive all the way to Hollywood, CA to walk into a brick and mortar.
Dave Hartman
Actually "Brick and Mortar" doesn't pass code anymore here as the ground near the San San Andreas tends to Rock n' Roll. In Glendale, CA I remember a brick building where I could look right into someone's bedroom on the second or third floor as the face of the building fell to the side walk in the Whittier earthquake. The floor was in tacked. The furniture more or less where it should be. The outer walls on the corner were gone.
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Sign of the times in March of 2009
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It's later than you think!
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I have been willing to take chances on refurbished and even used items, with generally good luck so far, but not grey-market digital bodies.
Except for the "open box" camera that turned out to be grey market, so I returned it. If you're in the U.S., check your serial numbers! Roland's site is very helpful for this.
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Except for the "open box" camera that turned out to be grey market, so I returned it. If you're in the U.S., check your serial numbers! Roland's site is very helpful for this.
Yes in deed! Check those serial numbers. Thank you Rolland!
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As I mentioned in my earlier post above, the only sure way to know if a lens is supported by Nikon USA is to have the guarantee sheet. The serial number (US prefix or not) is not a fool-proof indicator.
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As I mentioned in my earlier post above, the only sure way to know if a lens is supported by Nikon USA is to have the guarantee sheet. The serial number (US prefix or not) is not a fool-proof indicator.
Thanks for mentioning that. I was thinking about camera bodies and completely forgot about lenses!
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I should have said "lens or camera", it's the same situation for any Nikon product...
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I feel that it's a double cross on Nikon USA's part not to help a customer avoid buying a used gray market Nikon product.
Dave Hartman
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It's not fake news, it's a reality here in the U.S. and has been for a long time. I'm not concerned over grey-market status for old lenses and film cameras which can be repaired by third party repair shops using parts from deceased units. However, for recent and expensive digital bodies in particular, the problem of losing access to post-warranty repairs is a serious matter. I have been willing to take chances on refurbished and even used items, with generally good luck so far, but not grey-market digital bodies. It's a matter of risk management rather than mere risk aversion.
It may be fun to be wild, until the consequences bring one back down to harsh reality.
The reference to "fake news" was code-speak for something entirely besides the point. And frankly, I'm disgusted by it.
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Dispatched: Tuesday, July 11, 2017 at 00:00 Origin Service Area: MANCHESTER - Lancashire - UK Destination Service Area: COLOGNE - BONN - GERMANY
Hope it arrives before my holiday starting Saturday
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I feel that it's a double cross on Nikon USA's part not to help a customer avoid buying a used gray market Nikon product.
Dave Hartman
Very bad customer service if they really execute this policy in reality and not just tell a story to scare off the curious, which I still think.
They should instead price service higher for people shopping at the competition. That would be fair.
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Very bad customer service if they really execute this policy in reality and not just tell a story to scare off the curious, which I still think.
They should instead price service higher for people shopping at the competition. That would be fair.
I will try to find out if Nikon USA offers a way to clear suspected gray market serial numbers. I recall anecdotal claims (in past years) that there was a way to do it, but have never tried myself.
As for higher priced service for gray goods, I expect that might be a legal issue because of the USA's consumer protection laws.
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Very bad customer service if they really execute this policy in reality and not just tell a story to scare off the curious, which I still think.
Frank, here is what Nikon USA says (https://www.nikonimgsupport.com/ni/NI_article?articleNo=000001223&lang=en_US): "Additionally Nikon Inc. USA cannot perform any fee-based repair work on Gray Market items. Please do not contact Nikon Inc. USA for help with any Gray Market products." This issue has been extensively discussed on a number of American websites for many years and is not just a figment of our imagination and induced fears.
Now I have also run into sites that say that Nikon USA will now service certain models of gray-market bodies after previously not doing so (and despite the public statement above), so there isn't absolute clarity here. On the other hand, given Nikon USA's extremely poor record of customer service I would not relish trying to get them to do something they say they won't do.
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A few years ago I had a Canadian D200 which I bought used. Because it was originally imported into Canada and not the US, Nikon Service in Melville was happy to service it. Of course, I had the Canadian warranty (although expired) and my bill of sale to prove provenance.
I don't understand at all why the "Nikon gray market" thing is even permitted in the US. Only a few dollars are saved and you cannot get service. Why would someone buy that way? Maybe those gray market items are only sold to non-US buyers who could get service in their countries??? But then there are value-added taxes and high shipping fees for non-US buyers, so why would someone buy that way?
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I don't understand at all why the "Nikon gray market" thing is even permitted in the US. Only a few dollars are saved and you cannot get service. Why would someone buy that way? Maybe those gray market items are only sold to non-US buyers who could get service in their countries??? But then there are value-added taxes and high shipping fees for non-US buyers, so why would someone buy that way?
A friend of mine in Florida bought my first lenses for "My digital Nikon setup" in 2004, when I was reentering photography in December after leaving photography in general forever to become a profesinal drummer.
She bought a lot of stuff for me at shops like "Abes of Maine" and "Adorama" and "Cameta Camera", places where she bought her equipment too
All were value added tax free. She sent them to Germany where I paid import tax and had them registered with NPS in 2006, when I started my professional carrer with two D70-bodies and some lenses. Later I got my D3 from the USA, saving 700 Euros, although I paid import tax and got a lot of added value like a second battery, Capture NX and MC-36...
The crucial point was the exchange rate in these days. 100 Eurocent were worth between 145 to 161 Dollarcent at the time. Shipment is not sooo expensive if you buy in the big shops, or if the sister of my friend worked at an international express carrier in the USA...
Ever since I started professional photography I was covered by Nikon Professioinal Service.
All items I bought (except for one) were covered by "Nikon world wide warrenty". whatever that means. The "one" was a 1.4/85D which I did not like at all and sold after months of shelved life. It was covered by a warrenty insurance contract with world wide coverage.
Nikon stuff does not break so often. I once had a degorge at a Champagne Manufacture blast of into my 2.8/60D, requiring professional cleaning. After years of professional abuse I sold it for more than I paid for it. Stupid me broke the aperture lever of the D600 when I tried to mount Chris Dees old 1.4/35 Ai-S in 45 deg wrong orientation, and one of my D70ies stuck after the first 30.000 shots. I sold her with some 120.000 on the meter (or so, counter overflows at 16 Bit) later.
Check & Clean is free and if they have the parts I drive to Cologne, have a coffee and wait for the repair... This service is one of the reasond I love Nikon.
Nikon USA seems very strange to me.
****
To clear this "poodle in Microwave":
1) Who of you people here has experience the NON REPAIR POLICY first hand?
2) Who was scared off buying "grey market" by Nikon USA's threat?
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It's not a threat, Frank, it is the policy of Nikon USA. "Scared" is not the correct term, it would be sheer lunacy to knowingly buy grey market gear and expiect Nikon USA to service it with their stated policy.
You are a resident of Germany, and you're trying to tell US residents how Nikon USA works, but you have ZERO personal experience to back your claims. Why can't you accept what the folks in the US are telling you? Frank, you have no credibility in this, what happens elsewhere had no bearing on what happiens n the US.
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A few years ago I had a Canadian D200 which I bought used. Because it was originally imported into Canada and not the US, Nikon Service in Melville was happy to service it. Of course, I had the Canadian warranty (although expired) and my bill of sale to prove provenance.
I don't understand at all why the "Nikon gray market" thing is even permitted in the US. Only a few dollars are saved and you cannot get service. Why would someone buy that way? Maybe those gray market items are only sold to non-US buyers who could get service in their countries??? But then there are value-added taxes and high shipping fees for non-US buyers, so why would someone buy that way?
Well B&H has a grey market lens that is $700 cheaper than the US model. So sometimes the price is very different.
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A few years ago I had a Canadian D200 which I bought used. Because it was originally imported into Canada and not the US, Nikon Service in Melville was happy to service it. Of course, I had the Canadian warranty (although expired) and my bill of sale to prove provenance.
I don't understand at all why the "Nikon gray market" thing is even permitted in the US. Only a few dollars are saved and you cannot get service. Why would someone buy that way? Maybe those gray market items are only sold to non-US buyers who could get service in their countries??? But then there are value-added taxes and high shipping fees for non-US buyers, so why would someone buy that way?
Not just camera gear, remember the grey market Mercedes Benz issue? Dealers here would not do warranty service a grey market MB.
Nikon owns this issue, it's their policies at play. They know what I s going on, but I don't know why they allow it.
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It's not a threat, Frank, it is the policy of Nikon USA. "Scared" is not the correct term, it would be sheer lunacy to knowingly buy grey market gear and expiect Nikon USA to service it with their stated policy.
You are a resident of Germany, and you're trying to tell US residents how Nikon USA works, but you have ZERO personal experience to back your claims. Why can't you accept what the folks in the US are telling you? Frank, you have no credibility in this, what happens elsewhere had no bearing on what happiens n the US.
Did you ever try to get a grey market item serviced and were sent away?
YES or NO?
If not you know as much as myself and I have all right to call this fake news or poodles in microwaves or clever marketing to the faint of heart or simply bullshitting customers.
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Did you ever try to get a grey market item serviced and were sent away?
YES or NO?
If not you know as much as myself.
No,Frank, I know better than to do that. How can you sit in Germany and be the last word with regard to policies in the US. The tuth is that you do not kniw what you are talking about.
Come on over here abnd try it for yourself, we already know that it doesn't work!
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A few years ago I had a Canadian D200 which I bought used. Because it was originally imported into Canada and not the US, Nikon Service in Melville was happy to service it.
"They were happy to service" .... Means the DID service or DID NOT service???
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No,Frank, I know better than to do that. How can you sit in Germany and be the last word with regard to policies in the US. The tuth is that you do not kniw what you are talking about.
Come on over here abnd try it for yourself, we already know that it doesn't work!
Your fear of a scarecrow makes you blush?
Or am I getting anything wrong here?
Am I lost in translation?
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"They were happy to service" .... Means the DID service or DID NOT service???
That was not a grey market item according to Nikon USA policies. She bought the item in Canada, not in the
US, Frank. Why do keep,insisting that you know what is going on ehen clearly you do not?
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Evidence is missing. Simple as that.
Customer's rule or Corporate rule. Ralf Nader made them dance to our tune, why do you dance to their tune?
Longing to pay more? Longing to be treated inappropriately as a customer?
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Evidence is missing. Simple as that.
Customer's rule or Corporate rule. Ralf Nader made them dance to our tune, why do you dance to their tune?
Longing to pay more? Longing to be treated inappropriately as a customer?
If you won't listen to reason. but choose to believe a fantasy, that is your choice. But, you being a big tough guy, why not come on over and show us how it's done, put your money where your mouth is. If not, it's all talk.
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All parties need to back off a little at this point. The discussion is not very productive at present.
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I am out
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All parties need to back off a little at this point. The discussion is not very productive at present.
My apologies.
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My apologies.
You shouldn't have to apologize. Frank is the one who completely crossed the line and is talking complete rubbish. He is 100% wrong yet is calling people cowards and scarecrows. Sometimes calling someone a moron is just stating a fact.
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Please, this kind of language describing other members is inappropriate no matter what the circumstances.
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As regards my Canadian D200: "Nikon Melville was happy to service it" means that the D200 was indeed repaired by Melville.
My understanding is that in each country (or country group), official Nikon retail sellers may form their own sales organization with their own rules. Thus, in the USA, the US official Nikon retail sellers have chosen to have a rule about not servicing gear which has been imported into the US to be sold by an official Nikon retail seller as a gray market item for a lower price than the "official" imports.
I personally think that the US gray market rule is bad policy. The buyer may save some money (more savings than I had realized as per a comment above!), but if the purchased gear breaks then that buyer is up the old creek without the proverbial paddle -- you pay your money and you take your chances! While I agree that Nikon gear is quite robust, most of my repairs have been due to my own goofs such as in tipping a tripod over into a frog pond. Or the infamous 7 foot gear leap from a fish gate onto a granite ledge below. Had any of those damaged items been gray market, then I would have had to discard them as unrepairable. [Also note that here in the USA, we have a very strict regulation of who can or cannot repair Nikon gear because parts will only be sold by Nikon to official repair shops, and official repair shops must obey the Nikon gray market rule.]
This was all explained to me by Nikon USA when I wrote to them to ask if my Canadian D200 was considered to be a gray market item. It was not because: My Canadian D200 was originally imported into Canada to be sold there by a Canadian Nikon retail seller, was then purchased as a new camera by a Canadian citizen and finally was re-sold by that original Canadian buyer to me in the US. So my import of the D200 was not considered a gray market item. And therefore it could be repaired by US Nikon Melville.
I hope this is considered a factual explanation of the US gray market thing. And everyone can now move on. ;D ;D ;D
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As regards my Canadian D200: "Nikon Melville was happy to service it" means that the D200 was indeed repaired by Melville.
My understanding is that in each country (or country group), official Nikon retail sellers may form their own sales organization with their own rules. Thus, in the USA, the US official Nikon retail sellers have chosen to have a rule about not servicing gear which has been imported into the US to be sold by an official Nikon retail seller as a gray market item for a lower price than the "official" imports.
I personally think that the US gray market rule is bad policy. The buyer may save some money (more savings than I had realized as per a comment above!), but if the purchased gear breaks then that buyer is up the old creek without the proverbial paddle -- you pay your money and you take your chances! While I agree that Nikon gear is quite robust, most of my repairs have been due to my own goofs such as in tipping a tripod over into a frog pond. Or the infamous 7 foot gear leap from a fish gate onto a granite ledge below. Had any of those damaged items been gray market, then I would have had to discard them as unrepairable. [Also note that here in the USA, we have a very strict regulation of who can or cannot repair Nikon gear because parts will only be sold by Nikon to official repair shops, and official repair shops must obey the Nikon gray market rule.]
This was all explained to me by Nikon USA when I wrote to them to ask if my Canadian D200 was considered to be a gray market item. It was not because: My Canadian D200 was originally imported into Canada to be sold there by a Canadian Nikon retail seller, was then purchased as a new camera by a Canadian citizen and finally was re-sold by that original Canadian buyer to me in the US. So my import of the D200 was not considered a gray market item. And therefore it could be repaired by US Nikon Melville.
I hope this is considered a factual explanation of the US gray market thing. And everyone can now move on. ;D ;D ;D
As good an attempt at deciphering Nikon's can-of-worms grey market policy as any. People need to be aware of the pitfalls before they buy grey market Nikon gear. I'd add an emphasis on the part where you had provenance too, because that kept it from being declared a grey market item by Nikon USA.
Who ever thought that the simple act of buying camera gear would be so nuanced?
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[Also note that here in the USA, we have a very strict regulation of who can or cannot repair Nikon gear because parts will only be sold by Nikon to official repair shops, and official repair shops must obey the Nikon gray market rule.]
This refusal to sell parts to independent camera repair shops and owners is illegal in the state of California and there is or was a lawsuit that was winding its way through the courts. I have not followed the lawsuit. I was told by an independent camera repairman that Nikon tried and failed to have the venue changed to New York where it is legal to withhold sales of parts.
Dave Hartman
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As regards my Canadian D200: "Nikon Melville was happy to service it" means that the D200 was indeed repaired by Melville...
...This was all explained to me by Nikon USA[/b] when I wrote to them to ask if my Canadian D200 was considered to be a gray market item. It was not because: My Canadian D200 was originally imported into Canada to be sold there by a Canadian Nikon retail seller, was then purchased as a new camera by a Canadian citizen and finally was re-sold by that original Canadian buyer to me in the US. So my import of the D200 was not considered a gray market item. And therefore it could be repaired by US Nikon Melville.
You cleared that up quite nicely, and I thank you! Somewhat besides the point, my own experience with the Melville facility has been nothing short of extraordinary in the best sense, which I know contradicts conventional wisdom [sic] if one is to accept the horror stories related on numerous websites, blogs and online videos. Perhaps Nikon USA, Melville just likes me?! Perhaps it's my native fluency in Long Islandese as well as several other metro New York dialects? 8) As I write this, I'm preparing to send a disabused camera recently won, on that auction site out to Melville to be completely refurbished at no cost to myself. They didn't ask me to produce a receipt, excuse, retina scan, or stool sample. Only to pack the camera, carefully.
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There are countries in which Nikon has a relaxed and customer-friendly policy.
Exactly! And in my experience, courtesies are reciprocal. Set the standard and live by it.
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Human nature being what it is, most find no reason to comment on a non-event. An example might be "I went to the market and bought a loaf of bread, and there was nothing about the experience that stands out from the norm". Hardly a topic of conversation, yet it happens too many times day to keep track of.
Now, if that loaf had a hole in the wrapping, and end chewed off, or maybe the clerk was discourteous, then we have an issue to talk about. The situation was out of the norm. for whatever reason.
Unless asked, I would have no reason to praise Nikon USA service unless they did less than, or went beyond, what was expected. If not, it would be a non-event.
IOW, usually we only hear something if there's a reason to talk about it. I doubt anyone cares about the very nice loaf of bread that my wife will pull out of the oven later today. ;)
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Well it is a puzzle about Nikon US service. I also have had nothing but good experiences with Nikon Melville. As they say on the East coast, Go Figure!
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Well it is a puzzle about Nikon US service. I also have had nothing but good experiences with Nikon Melville. As they say on the East coast, Go Figure!
Agreed. While it isn't anything that we're going to solve here, I do think that raising awareness about it is good. Forewarned is forearmed.
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[...] I doubt anyone cares about the very nice loaf of bread that my wife will pull out of the oven later today. ;)[...]
I probably would and I have my own reasons for that. But that does not belong here. :)
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In every instance, Nikon USA exceeded all my expectations. I sent them "beaters" I could hardly afford to buy used much less send out for service, and they returned me working tools -- sharp and shiny -- that served me well through the lean times. Like, now...
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Gosh. Am I happy to live in Germany. I am a global photographer using stuff from Nikon my trusted global supplier who pays an independent local service provider to service the stuff via NPS. Nikon USA seems to run a different business model. Did anyone see a camera for the EU plastered full with "EU" stickers?
In the EU, it is required by law that the manufacturer's importer give warranty service to products that are sold in that market irrespective of where they were purchased or who imported them. There is no "gray market" in the EU basically since there is no legal way for the manufacturer's importer (which is usually wholly owned by the manufacturer, i.e., Nikon Japan in this case) to avoid providing warranty support.
Nikon USA does actually provide warranty service to items which were not imported by Nikon USA, as long as they were imported by Nikon's official importer for the country of purchase (i.e. not gray market in the region of purchase) and the purchase receipt exists and is shown. This is information that I received from Nikon USA when I requested it when I was about to move to live in the USA for a time.
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Nikon USA does actually provide warranty service to items which were not imported by Nikon USA, as long as they were imported by Nikon's official importer for the country of purchase (i.e. not gray market in the region of purchase) and the purchase receipt exists and is shown. This is information that I received from Nikon USA when I requested it when I was about to move to live in the USA for a time.
That has long been my understanding.
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In every instance, Nikon USA exceeded all my expectations. I sent them "beaters" I could hardly afford to buy used much less send out for service, and they returned me working tools -- sharp and shiny -- that served me well through the lean times. Like, now...
That is great service. Do they check the channel where the beaten up items originated decades ago? What about used items in general?
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You cleared that up quite nicely, and I thank you! Somewhat besides the point, my own experience with the Melville facility has been nothing short of extraordinary in the best sense, which I know contradicts conventional wisdom [sic] if one is to accept the horror stories related on numerous websites, blogs and online videos. Perhaps Nikon USA, Melville just likes me?! Perhaps it's my native fluency in Long Islandese as well as several other metro New York dialects? 8) As I write this, I'm preparing to send a disabused camera recently won, on that auction site out to Melville to be completely refurbished at no cost to myself. They didn't ask me to produce a receipt, excuse, retina scan, or stool sample. Only to pack the camera, carefully.
To me the stories I hear of actual service experience seem to hint to what I already expected and expressed above.
Truth is Nikon USA will service items built by Nikon no matter what. They will usually not investigate the original trade channel, because it is irrelevant.
They will continue to check serial numbers of stolen property.
And they will continue to discourage trade channels that channel profits away from them by telling the non service fairy tale. Point me to any significant number of people who were actually denied service. I never met one. Did you?
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To me the stories I hear of actual service experience seem to hint to what I already expected and expressed above.
Truth is Nikon USA will service items built by Nikon no matter what. They will usually not investigate the original trade channel, because it is irrelevant.
They will continue to check serial numbers of stolen property.
And they will continue to discourage trade channels that channel profits away from them by telling the non service fairy tale. Point me to any significant number of people who were actually denied service. I never met one. Did you?
link (https://www.slrlounge.com/mission-impossible-how-to-service-or-repair-a-grey-market-nikon-d750/)
link (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/31847198)
link (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1410760/0)
We had a local camera store that sent an old Nikon (grey market) in and they actually pulled a key component out of it and refused service. Guy sold it and second buyer sent it in. Came back unfixed from Nikon again. He found an independent shop who tried to order the part, back when Nikon sold parts to the independents, and Nikon refused shipping them the parts from the serial number. Thing couldn't get fixed anywhere as they "black-balled" that camera body. Store manager gave the guy $10 for it and kept it on the shelf as a selling point on the grays verses buying from them.
link (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=93234.0)
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Truth is Nikon USA will service items built by Nikon no matter what. They will usually not investigate the original trade channel, because it is irrelevant.
A camera repairman friend confirmed that he could not buy parts for Nikon cameras in violation of California law.
Frank, you do not live here. You do not know.
Dave Hartman
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It's quite easy to speculate that Nikon USA wants a monopoly on importing Nikon products into the USA. Nikon USA does not under US law have a monopoly so they are refusing to repair "white market" Nikon camera, that's right it's perfectly legal under US law for anyone to import Nikon products into the US so it's a white market.
In the old days EPOI was the official Nikon importer and EPOI was not owned by Nikon so it had legal monopoly on import. This fuss about "gray market" didn't exist as EPOI had customs on its side.
Nikon is refusing to sell parts in California because they will be shipped everywhere in the US. If they loose or have lost they will have put many independents out of business. They tried a change of venue to New York state as there they can refuse to sell parts in New York. The change of venue didn't work. I haven't followed the lawsuit.
I like Nikon products. I don't like the company [Nikon USA]. I'm married to Nikon through my legacy Nikkor lenses.
I haven't time for any more of this.
Dave Hartman
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link (https://www.slrlounge.com/mission-impossible-how-to-service-or-repair-a-grey-market-nikon-d750/)
link (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/31847198)
link (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1410760/0)
link (http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=93234.0)
Very helpful links, Bill! Thank you.
Obviously they can (halfway) enforce this customer unfriendly policy as long as the number of grey market items is small compared to the number if items sold.
If customer base sees a significant advantage in buying "grey" and the number of items rises therefore over a certain threshold they have to change their policy.
So I stand corrected. There are in fact cases where Nikon lends some credibility to their marketing strategy of "non service". And the strategy works as long as enough customers are scared into buying "Genuine US items" I have several bought from official channels in your country including my D3 which I bought April 2008 at cameta camera .com
....
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I know that it can be very tricky to get your hands on Nikon spare parts anywhere in the world.
....unless you know some people inside ....
Question: What about insurance? If you manage to pay 1000 US$ less for a camera but you have a good insurance that will replace the item with a new one in case you break it on the job e.g. you are on the safe side, are you?
It is a question of economics. Do the 1000US$ matter to you now? How many years of luxurious insurance will 1000US$ cover?
From Bill's links I see, that the official Nikon channels seem to have supply problems at times so people buy "grey" because the "white" shelf is empty.
For me personally I have new and used items from all over the world plus a lot of brick & mortar local official and "genuine US" stuff. At the time I bought these in 2004 to 2008 the price difference to grey was insignificant.
My reason to buy in the USA was their listing price in Dollar was lower than the listing price in Euro here and the Euro was very strong. My D3 genuine US was 700€ cheaper including 19% import tax than the best price in good old Germany.
*****
Just because I do not live in the US does not mean I do not understand the US cultural reality.
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http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-store/gray-market.page?icid=img_en_us:hp:grid:5:mkt:na:110816:grayMarketBanner
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Just because I do not live in the US does not mean I do not understand the US cultural reality.
Frank, all throughout this thread I've been under the impression that you are in some part mocking the US and anyone who has differing views than your own. All the while you've been dismissing other peoples opinions, suggesting someone is a "lost coward" if they don't engage in the same practices as you, ignoring people more informed than yourself on matters and coming to your own alternative facts, for lack of better term. You've even adopted the "fake news" terminology as your own.
Do you see the irony yet?
You are making the case that you would be the perfect candidate as mayor of "Trumpland", where ever that might be.
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I know that it can be very tricky to get your hands on Nikon spare parts anywhere in the world.
....unless you know some people inside ....
It wasn't this bad some years back. I call up Nikon USA and ordered two CPU(s) on the flex to put in extension tubes. I gave them the information, name, address and a credit card number. They shipped the parts to me. No problems. It was no different than ordering a memory card from B&H or Adorama would be today.
Nikon USA already had their "gray market" policies in place and had but a few years back they decided to further their desired for a monopoly of importing Nikon products into the United States NOT SUPPORTED BY USA's FEDERAL LAW by refusing to sell parts to owners and independent camera repair shops parts. This is or was ILLEGAL IN CALIFORNIA. Nikon USA tried a change of venue to New York where they don't have to sell parts to owners and independents. The change of venue failed. For all I know the Little Mother R***rs have moved out of California.
If I were starting in photography today I'd buy Canon but I'm not. I'm married to Nikon through legacy lenses I bought as far back as 1978. I don't still own any of the lenses I bought from 1970 to 1975. I went "Walk About" for three years and didn't own a 35mm camera.
Why do I keep posting to this stupid thread?
Dave Hartman who is horse from yelling.
There is an nice run on sentence above, yes?
You can get anything you want,
At Nikon USA's Restaurant,
Excepting Parts.
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...
Why do I keep posting to this stupid thread?
....
I'm eagerly waiting for page 10 of this thread ::)
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If I were starting in photography today I'd buy Canon but I'm not. I'm married to Nikon through legacy lenses I bought as far back as 1978. I don't still own any of the lenses I bought from 1970 to 1975. I went "Walk About" for three years and didn't own a 35mm camera.
Why do I keep posting to this stupid thread?
Dave Hartman who is horse from yelling.
I've been using a Canon 5DS R the past week and have come to appreciate the color and low light capabilities of my lowly Df. Can't say I'd go with Canon if I started fresh, even if their parts policy were better.
By the way "horse" is something you beat when dead. "Hoarse" is what your voice is after beating said horse...
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I've been using a Canon 5DS R the past week and have come to appreciate the color and low light capabilities of my lowly Df. Can't say I'd go with Canon if I started fresh, even if their parts policy were better.
By the way "horse" is something you beat when dead. "Hoarse" is what your voice is after beating said horse...
Ayuh, I don't subscribe to the theory that "the grass is greener at the other place" either. ;)
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Greener Grass:
Which do you prefer?
One is Nikon, one is Canon?
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I hope he doesn't ask me which image is from which camera......... :-\
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In the image on the right the model's head is tilted forward slightly relative to the image on the left. To me, it looks like her face has more (yet still subtle) shadows as a result, providing more contrast and a more interesting appearance. So the photos are not an equal comparison of photographic equipment IMO. I do like the right photo better and I think that's due to both posing and lighting.
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Greener Grass:
Which do you prefer?
One is Nikon, one is Canon?
It doesn't really matter. If she had a watch she wouldn't give me the time of day and who could blame her?
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By the way "horse" is something you beat when dead. "Hoarse" is what your voice is after beating said horse...
A horse is a horse, of course, of course...
Jack, will you be my proofreader?
Dave
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Ayuh, I don't subscribe to the theory that "the grass is greener at the other place" either. ;)
The grass is definitely greener on the Nikon side. Spent today editing raw files from both cameras. No doubt that 50 mpx is a lot of detail, but I find it easier to work with the Df's color and tonality, especially for the color green.
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A horse is a horse, of course, of course...
Jack, will you be my proofreader?
Dave
Sure, but you have to pony up a quarter a word.
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Frank, all throughout this thread I've been under the impression that you are in some part mocking the US and anyone who has differing views than your own. All the while you've been dismissing other peoples opinions, suggesting someone is a "lost coward" if they don't engage in the same practices as you, ignoring people more informed than yourself on matters and coming to your own alternative facts, for lack of better term. You've even adopted the "fake news" terminology as your own.
Do you see the irony yet?
You are making the case that you would be the perfect candidate as mayor of "Trumpland", where ever that might be.
You take things personally. I did not make any personal remarks to anyone. Why do you feel hurt? My son runs after the newest Adidas shoes like a crack addict. He says that he is not influenced by advertising.
There is just the friendly guy on the internet saying you must have these shoes....
As a marketing professional I show how marketing tactics work. People who fall victim to these tactics defend them who bullshit them not the one who helps them free their minds by uncovering the tactics.
On the other hand I am under fire in this thread for no good reason.
Nikon is bullshitting you. Fact.
You defend them. Fact.
You feel that I have no right to say it. Fact.
You feel hurt because I revealed you are being bullshitted. Fact.
I am man enough to bear this, but man I feel some of you got the president they deserve.
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Posing and lighting. Bill is right.
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You take things personally. I did not make any personal remarks to anyone. Why do you feel hurt? My son runs after the newest Adidas shoes like a crack addict. He says that he is not influenced by advertising.
There is just the friendly guy on the internet saying you must have these shoes....
As a marketing professional I show how marketing tactics work. People who fall victim to these tactics defend them who bullshit them not the one who helps them free their minds by uncovering the tactics.
On the other hand I am under fire in this thread for no good reason.
Nikon is bullshitting you. Fact.
You defend them. Fact.
You feel that I have no right to say it. Fact.
You feel hurt because I revealed you are being bullshitted. Fact.
I am man enough to bear this, but man I feel some of you got the president they deserve.
Frank, you do not hurt me. As far as I'm concerned you're more than welcome to speak freely on any topic, I'm certain we'd agree on many things, presidents included. But why would you expect a free pass from your own bullshit being called out?
If you fail to see the similarities in your behavior to that in which you are mocking, so be it.
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In the image on the right the model's head is tilted forward slightly relative to the image on the left. To me, it looks like her face has more (yet still subtle) shadows as a result, providing more contrast and a more interesting appearance. So the photos are not an equal comparison of photographic equipment IMO. I do like the right photo better and I think that's due to both posing and lighting.
Agree. It's not a valid comparison. Too much difference between the shots. Great care would have to be taken to make valid camera rendering comparisons with a live model. That's why test comparisons such as DPReview's so often use boring sets composed of inanimate objects.
There is another factor: If the tester's familiarity is with Nikon, then the software settings and the processing knowledge/experience of the tester used is likely going to be pre-optimized for Nikon. It might take an considerable amount of work to optimize for Canon.
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Greener Grass:
Which do you prefer?
One is Nikon, one is Canon?
Charlie,
I think the portrait studio would be a great place for the 5DS R. It is a controlled accurately lit space. I never work in a studio. I'm always working without flash in locations with lighting which is not under my control, and which often consists of bright sunlight unmitigated by clouds, not infrequently streaming into dark interiors. The Canon does not handle this well.
So far my experience is that the Df delivers files which are easier to hammer into shape. This makes the process more enjoyable for me. This can be weighed against the increased detail. And so far the forgiving nature of the Nikon is weighing in more heavily.
All we have are our own opinions. You are free to prefer something different.
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There should be diffraction stars in her eyes so I could have an easy cheat.
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Agree. It's not a valid comparison. Too much difference between the shots. Great care would have to be taken to make valid camera rendering comparisons with a live model. That's why test comparisons such as DPReview's so often use boring sets composed of inanimate objects.
There is another factor: If the tester's familiarity is with Nikon, then the software settings and the processing knowledge/experience of the tester used is likely going to be pre-optimized for Nikon. It might take an extraordinary amount of work to optimize for Canon.
The idea was to see the difference in skin tone color & detail as well as comparing the general rendering and 3 dimensionality between the cameras. The inanimate object tests wouldn't really reveal much in this regard. It was an informal test mostly for my curiosity as I had both cameras on hand (D800/5dMkIII). Aside from matching slight exposure differences, post processing was the same on both images, white balance set from the same place.
Perhaps a more valid comparison:
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Charlie, you have to change / adapt your lighting. You have to get rid of / attenuate the shadow from the nose on the left cheek
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.....
As a marketing professional I show how marketing tactics work. People who fall victim to these tactics defend them who bullshit them not the one who helps them free their minds by uncovering the tactics.
.....
Are you a marketing professional ?
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Nikon is bullshitting you. Fact.
You defend them. Fact.
You feel that I have no right to say it. Fact.
You feel hurt because I revealed you are being bullshitted. Fact.
Frank, I think you are putting the proverbial horse before the cart (haven't we talked about horses already?).
First, you have to provide some evidence for the hypothesis that Nikon USA's gray market policy is not being enforced (above bold-faced statement).
After that, we may talk about interpretations or possible reasons (marketing strategies etc.)
So far, I have not seen any evidence for the hypothesis in question, and I find it appropriate that people object to your conclusions.
Especially if you have experience with marketing yourself, you have to be open to the possibility that your above-average familiarity with the subject is yielding an above-average rate of false alarms (i.e. you smell marketing BS, but it is in fact a real policy with enforceable consequences).
Jumping straight to conclusions (i.e. I smell marketing BS, therefore it must be marketing BS) will therefore net you a high rate of false conclusions.
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Thank you Simone.
Obviously Nikon USA wants to scare people of buying from any source but them.
Factually they tell the story that they will not service items obtained through other channels OR, difficult to tell, they tell the story AND enforce this policy.
Reading through the social media echo above no clear picture emerges.
It could be enforcement or just enough enforcement to make the story believable or it could be paid for buzz. Not easy to tell in these times. Possibly a mix of all that.
Depending on your position on fair market practices this can be considered "legitimate market defense" as some of the people here, who aggressively defend this policy, seem to think OR it can be considered a "customer unfriendly policy" as me and some other people here seem to think.
In my book fair market practice is to create extra value for extra money, like:
"Buy from Nikon USA and you get the following premium:
-- faster and cheaper service
-- sponsored rentals
-- free check & clean every year
All this we do not provide to people who do not buy genuine Nikon USA stuff"
I personally pay extra pemium prices at my bricks & mortars, because I want to see them survive with their cellars full of equipment I can buy same day and not wait until someone ships from somewhere (for cheaper).
Everybody may buy wherever they want and can afford. I would never tell anyone what to do or not do. That is false conclusion.
Simone. One last word: I consider it BS if they tell the story as well as if they tell the story and enforce the no-service-policy.
I am very happy with Nikon Germany / Nikon Europe. They are much better in these respects.
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...
In my book fair market practice is to create extra value for extra money, like:
...
I personally pay extra pemium prices at my bricks & mortars, because I want to see them survive with their cellars full of equipment I can buy same day and not wait until someone ships from somewhere (for cheaper).
...
(1) your book: any reference, title, publisher ?
(2) you are favoring your local "brick & mortar" shops; nevertheless, you skim US retailers for a cheaper bargain ??
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Sorry Andrea, I'll stay one topic from now on :)
Tom
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Charlie, you have to change / adapt your lighting. You have to get rid of / attenuate the shadow from the nose on the left cheek
It seems my text and the color checker didn't give away that these are test images.
When the model turns a bit towards/away from the light, or lifts/lowers her chin, the shadows follow suit.
Not necessary to change/adapt the light.
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It seems my text and the color checker didn't give away that these are test images.
When the model turns a bit towards/away from the light, or lifts/lowers her chin, the shadows follow suit.
Not necessary to change/adapt the light.
It's your call ....
Pictures under #108 have no color checker, but I guess those were test pictures as well ...
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It's your call ....
Pictures under #108 have no color checker, but I guess those were test pictures as well ...
You are right, Mr Floyd.
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The skin color is more saturated in the Nikon shot, as is the color chart. Should the color saturation have been matched between the two as part of the test?
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What is all this about Nikon v. Canon. What fool started this? I though this thread was about <a topic I'm sworn not to comment on but you can add the topic here>.
Dave
Page 10 coming soon...
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The skin color is more saturated in the Nikon shot, as is the color chart. Should the color saturation have been matched between the two as part of the test?
How do you know which photographs are from the Nikon?
Post #108 I was trying to get both photos to match. They were processed with the same settings though I changed the contrast and saturation of the NEF file to better match that of the 5DmkIII CR2 file.
Post #121 I was comparing images straight out of the cameras with no adjustments other than matching exposure and white balance to the same square on the color checker.
These are screen captures from Capture One resized and converted to sRGB and they've lost a bit of detail in the process so they're probably not a 100% accurate replication of what I'm seeing when comparing the raw files in Capture One.
Looking at a NEF files by themselves I don't think I'd come to the conclusion that they are lacking in richness though when comparing them to the Canon I found the CR2 files to have consistently richer skin tones, even when the NEF/CR2 files were matched to one another in saturation, exposure, etc.
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What is all this about Nikon v. Canon. What fool started this? I though this thread was about <a topic I'm sworn not to comment on but you can add the topic here>.
You brought up the Nikon v Canon thing on the same day I happened to be doing a comparison, how could I not share my findings? Apparently Jack was doing some comparing as well.
Anyway, I think the original thread had run its course so perhaps it was best to change the topic ::)
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You brought up the Nikon v Canon thing on the same day I happened to be doing a comparison, how could I not share my findings? Apparently Jack was doing some comparing as well.
Anyway, I think the original thread had run its course so perhaps it was best to change the topic ::)
Do you mean where Frank was looking for the cheapest price on that lens because he doesn't overpay, then claimed to support his local brick and mortar stores? :-\
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Page 10 ! Champagne 🍾🍾🍾🎉🎈
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How do you know which photographs are from the Nikon?
Ooops...sorry...I mentally merged this with another thing where the Nikon was on the left side. They both seem good enough for purpose.
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How's about someone starting a new topic somewhere else? ;D
We're really getting tired of monitoring the snark.
Also I'd be happy to break parts of this thread off into a new topic if someone suggests where.
Maybe I could start with charlie's post here: http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,6166.msg100655.html#msg100655
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On a scale of one to five, please rate how discombobulated this thread has become
It started off with a question about the validity of an offer of a used product for sale, and the last posts have been about canons vs nikons vs pirates vs ninjas vs whatever as far as I can tell?... I guess it is another case of "Once a thread is in the open, it is in the wild".
P.S. I have now way of knowing for certain that the offer was a valid and serious offer!
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I'd give it a 15 for super-discombobulation-expialidocious.
****
Were you interested in that offer Bill??
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:)
Not really interested in the offer at all Andrea.
Though I always find the discussions most entertaining to say the least
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Got the PopCorn and the Beer.
This is one of the most interesting threads ever, by a most talented member and me think should be awarded the dumbest thread on Nikongear.
Wait, just heard that Zuckerberg wants in on it ;D
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Which do you prefer?
One is Nikon, one is Canon?
The one on the right because there is only one catch light in each eye.
Dave who still wants a pair of photos with diffraction stars in the eyes so he can tell which in Nikon and which is Canon.
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I'm eagerly waiting for page 10 of this thread ::)
We made it!
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We made it!
A bit of hard work and some talent and you can achieve almost anything!
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I read the first posts and decided I could ignore this thread, but it keeps popping up in the unread threads, seems it has become the dumping groud for anything we can think off
... so ...
here is my contribution to make it a perennial appearance as an unread post
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The simple truth is that conversations can and do evolve, sometimes winding up far astray from where they started. I can see Armando's point, but then, his post was at least as far away from where the topic had led as any. That is not a criticism, just an observation, I'm not the post police, nor do I want to be. ;)
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You have a point Armando.
Maybe there is a need for a general chat thread, which as you say always pops up as unread.
How do others feel? As is, this thread is way off topic, but is entertaining never the less.
I read the first posts and decided I could ignore this thread, but it keeps popping up in the unread threads, seems it has become the dumping groud for anything we can think off
... so ...
here is my contribution to make it a perennial appearance as an unread post
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You have a point Armando.
Maybe there is a need for a general chat thread, which as you say always pops up as unread.
How do others feel? As is, this thread is way off topic, but is entertaining never the less.
Well, Frank started this thread, what does he think?
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Well, Frank started this thread, what does he think?
You dare to ask!
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OK, that's enough from everyone. Frank is battling a serious illness. Let's let him get well without piling on more snark and hope that he is back soon in a cheerier frame of mind and better health.
I'm locking this for 24 hours. Then I'll reopen it. Meanwhile, perhaps some other meaningful or interesting or even funny topics could be started and discussed. ;D Elsewhere. Not in this thread. geez, already...
*****
27 July 2017. Topic reopened now as promised. But perhaps this topic has run its course? ;D ;D ;D