NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Other => Topic started by: Frank Fremerey on March 04, 2017, 16:55:35
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https://www.google.com/patents/US20160368777
https://electrek.co/2017/03/01/li-ion-battery-inventor-solid-state-battery-breakthrough/
Triple the capacity and small cameras will last trough the day. And E cars will go for 1000 Miles without recharge
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Meanwhile I will make due with the 90 miles range on my e-Golf :) Have a Tesla in order which claims 3 times that range.
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Sounds fantastic. I hope it comes to fruition.
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Meanwhile I will make due with the 90 miles range on my e-Golf :) Have a Tesla in order which claims 3 times that range.
If you drive a Tesla you are required to estimate the number of cubic centimeters contained in all your desserts as Nikola Tesla did. Failure to observe this requirement will have dire consequences.
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Interesting for cars and all sorts of devices.
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So, how long will it take to commercialize the technology, and do we know that it will be commercialized? I guess it may take several years for manufacturers of end user products to switch to the new technology even after it becomes widely available. For electric cars the battery's energy density and safety should be of prime concern. And of course it is important to be able to charge it as quickly as possible, if people are to travel long distances with electric cars.
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I'm more interested in the fuel batteries. You don't need to way them to be charged. You just need to fill them up.
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I'm more interested in the fuel batteries. You don't need to way them to be charged. You just need to fill them up.
Are you referring to hydrogen fuel cells?
I read that they can be filled up in a few seconds (!) but safety may be an issue, also the car will be more complex than a pure electric car, and the infrastructure for hydrogen gas stations is missing in many parts of the world (I read that there is only one location where one can fill up a hydrogen fuel cell car in Finland).
Many of the European car manufacturers don't seem to be pushing hydrogen though I don't know how quickly that could change.
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Ilkka, I was referring to any type of fuel batteries. Hydrogen, alcohol or anything will do so long as it works. Lithium is not safe at all...
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From electrek article: "can operate “from -20 degrees Celsius to under 60 degree Celsius.” So what happens beyond 60 degrees Celsius? That number is far exceeded for car interiors, and very likely battery compartments as well, during our Arizona summers. Interiors can exceed 75 degrees Celsius here. I sure don't leave any photo gear in my car during summers. Many places here in the US have similar summer temps.
The low temp of -20 would also be problematic in many places. OTOH, perhaps they can overcome the current operating temp restrictions.
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There is a long way to go with battery technology. About all solar power is good for today is it puts fossil fuel power plants on standby for part of the day. There is a reduction in CO2 emissions, but it is very expensive per ton because the solar assets are a duplication.
I see lots of Tesla cars on the road here in Houston. My understanding is EPA rated range is at 97 KPH with no heat or AC running. Around here people drive a lot faster, and AC is used at least 9 months of the year. Charging infrastructure in Texas is minimal.
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Ilkka, I was referring to any type of fuel batteries. Hydrogen, alcohol or anything will do so long as it works. Lithium is not safe at all...
But fossil fuel is? :o
There's a lot of research in battery tech and if anyone is able to create something really revolutionary it'll likely be a license to print money :) I hope this is as good as it says, but no doubt there's a long way and quite a few years before it's ready for use.
From what I understand, hydrogen fuel cells are very inefficient.
BW: A Model 3? I got a reservation on one too :)
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From what I understand, hydrogen fuel cells are very inefficient.
I guess it depends where you want to see the efficiency. :) If you need to travel long distance, I have read that Mercedes say it takes a few seconds to fill up their hydrogen fuel cells whereas with Tesla even just partial charging takes 30 min on a special brand specific charging station, that gets you maybe 300km (since 30min won't give you full charge), in winter 200km? Then you wait again for half hour if you have a supercharger around? If you don't have supercharger but a regular charging station then it takes much longer. I have not driven a Tesla but this sounds to be a quite inefficient way to travel (say) 1200km to Lapland. When electric cars stop being a novelty and become common, you need a lot of charging stations to be able to handle the same amount of traffic as today with diesel and petrol cars, without slowing down the traffic.
If you're referring to the process of using electrical power (or worse, fossil fuel) to make hydrogen, then I suppose it is inefficient. With a hydrogen fuel cell car you have the option to charge the battery on the electrical network just like a normal electric car, overnight, or you can fill up the fuel cells and be on your way without waiting a long time. If the battery is of the same size then this should not be a problem (I guess a fuel cell car would have smaller battery, but this is a matter of priorities).
Today the most urgent need to reduce emissions is in cities where the air quality is poor and there are a lot of people breathing that foul air. Yes, it has been worse, but the air hasn't been cleaned as much as would be preferable, especially in big cities like London. However, if you are living in a a moderately sized city, you probably won't have access to a place to park your car so that you can charge overnight, unless you own a house in which case you are quite wealthy. Anyway most people in cities live in flats and that means there are no easy ways to charge an electric car. I don't believe there is much going on to solve this situation, which then opens up the opportunity to cars that use fuel cells because they can be filled up quickly, and natural gas because at least it burns cleaner than petrol or diesel.
From a CO2 perspective I suppose electric cars are better if the electricity itself is produced cleanly, which in many of the less affluent places of the Earth, it is not. But because of the lack of incentive to equip everyone with an opportunity to charge overnight, there won't be any fast switching to electric cars for the masses, I'm afraid. And to have a meaningful effect on climate and city air quality, it would have to involve masses of people switching.
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You are correct, that charging takes time, even with Tesla super chargers. They have talked about making them faster and getting the time down to 5-10 minutes to get enough charge to be able to reach the next super charger. Tesla have confirmed they are working on their next generation of super chargers that will be faster. Others have started building fast chargers too, chargers that are able to charge faster than the current Tesla super chargers.
It's also absolutely correct that long distance travel is where EV's are at a disadvantage, but for most people, most days, the range a Tesla provides is more than enough and you don't need a fast charger, you just plug it in at night so every morning you got a "full tank". From what I understand, people rarely need to use the super chargers, they almost always charge at home.
There's certainly a need for new infrastructure (a lot more chargers) in the cities to make it possible for people living in apartments to be able to charge their cars. But what will happen when autonomous cars make their entry? It'll no doubt become quite cheap to rent one, so I could imagine a lot of people would do that instead of owning their own car.
I have no detailed knowledge of fuel cells, but from what I read, there's a lot of problems that makes them far from being a good solution anytime soon: http://energypost.eu/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-competitive-hydrogen-fuel-cell-expert/
I think people will switch to EV's when it makes sense for them, especially economically - money talks. Currently, EV's can't really compete for the masses, but prices are going down rapidly and EV's are much simpler cars compared to ICE cars, making them cheaper to maintain.
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In an Interview Elon Musk said that all Teslas are designed for quick battery replacement.
The future business model for E Cars will be that you own the car but rent the battery.
The battery is standardized and will be replaced in 5 minutes or as fast as a refuel of gasoline.
Efficiency. The average European car needs 80kwh to go 100km. A Tesla needs between 15kwh and 25 kwh per 100km depending on your driving style. The real world prototypes of Hydrogen fueled cars used between 200 and 225 kwh per 100km. These horses are dead.
Plus the efficiency to produce eco hydrogen from solar and wind is in the low one digit percent.
E car and battery replacement are the way to go. It is the second wave and a money making model: battery logistics and charging stations. I like to have a Model 3 too. But currently my life style is more to live in a walkable environment without a car
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The battery is standardized and will be replaced in 5 minutes or as fast as a refuel of gasoline.
I don't think this is realistic. A half a ton battery in a sedan, shaped like a flat sheet, taking it out would require a quite elaborate system, which I am sure that exists in factories but gas stations are not going to invest in this. And different cars have different shapes and so will be the different batteries. If you lift half-ton batteries around there will no doubt be accidents. The infrastructure required to do this e.g. while six cars are filling up at a station all in five minutes? I don't think so. What about trucks? The batteries will be much larger. Small cars cannot have large batteries because the interior volume would shrink too much.
I understand that hydrogen is inefficient in that sense but in the future probably unlimited clean electricity will be available (nuclear fusion), so in the end it would not matter so much. EVs could be used for city traffic and people who need to travel long distances by car could use fuel cells (in their EVs) at a higher cost.
As of now, because of severely limited charging infrastructure, and lack of incentives to build this infrastructure at every home, the use of EVs will continue to be exotic activity for decades to come, while the majority continue to burn diesel and gasoline and pollute like before.
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Well, that depends. Political incentives can change consumer behaviour quite rapidly. In my country, electric cars and hybrids climbed quickly to more than 25% of the sales total. Charging stations are proliferating at fast pace throughout the country. The infrastructure is still not well enough developed outside the bigger cities, but the situation improves by the day so to speak.
On the more relevant (to us) issue of camera batteries, any progress to make batteries last longer and yield better is most welcome.
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I don't think this is realistic. A half a ton battery in a sedan, shaped like a flat sheet, taking it out would require a quite elaborate system, which I am sure that exists in factories but gas stations are not going to invest in this. And different cars have different shapes and so will be the different batteries. If you lift half-ton batteries around there will no doubt be accidents. The infrastructure required to do this e.g. while six cars are filling up at a station all in five minutes? I don't think so. What about trucks? The batteries will be much larger. Small cars cannot have large batteries because the interior volume would shrink too much.
There was a company doing exactly that called Better Place: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place
They opened a couple of battery switching stations here in Denmark, but they went bankrupt in 2013. Tesla has also showed it and have a single station doing it, but I believe they've dropped going forward with the technology, they are betting on expanding the super charger network instead. I don't see why there should be a lot of accidents when the switch is done 100% automatically? It's basically like driving your car into a car wash.
Here's Teslas demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FE81S26XG8c
I understand that hydrogen is inefficient in that sense but in the future probably unlimited clean electricity will be available (nuclear fusion), so in the end it would not matter so much. EVs could be used for city traffic and people who need to travel long distances by car could use fuel cells (in their EVs) at a higher cost.
I do agree that fuel cells might be an advantage for long distance travel and trucks, and I can see why current oil companies would love for that to happen because that's quite similar to their current business model with tank stations. However, these hydrogen tank stations are quite expensive to build and hydrogen is quite difficult to store as well and if you think lithium isn't safe, what about crashing a car with a hydrogen tank at perhaps 700 bar?
As of now, because of severely limited charging infrastructure, and lack of incentives to build this infrastructure at every home, the use of EVs will continue to be exotic activity for decades to come, while the majority continue to burn diesel and gasoline and pollute like before.
I would bet building out a charging infrastructure is way easier, cheaper and faster to do than a similar hydrogen fuel cell infrastructure. Tesla is expanding their super charger network at a pretty decent pace and the other manufacturers have started building networks as well. Furthermore, there are various other companies that have been building infrastructure for years. The EU is moving too: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2016/oct/11/electric-car-charging-point-new-home-europe-renault
"Every new or refurbished house in Europe will need to be equipped with an electric vehicle recharging point, under a draft EU directive expected to come into effect by 2019."
Batteries are getting cheaper and cheaper. Tesla and others are betting big on using them for home and utility scale energy storage and they can put up new systems at amazing speed: https://electrek.co/2017/01/23/tesla-mira-loma-powerpack-station-southern-california-edison/
They installed it in 94 days: https://youtu.be/hZzjuX6j2ME
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I'm using the 18650's in my flashlights since 2012, these batteries are the cutting edge of li-ion technology as they were used in laptops for ages and can now be found in battery packs of electric cars, electric power tools, etc.
In the early days one had to choose between unsafe high capacity (3400mAh) low output battery (4-6A) often with an IC protection to make it safer or a high output low capacity 2000mAh battery using a safer chemistry (so often used without an IC protection board). Now I use unprotected high capacity batteries using safe chemistry which can output a whopping 20 Amps and they only cost 9 euros versus the 16 euros I payed 4 years ago for the same capacity.
So, while the capacity has grown very little over the recent years we do have much cheaper li-ion batteries which can safely output the high currents needed for todays applications.
With the capacity of the safe li-ion technology now on par with the old unsafe li-ion technology the next innovation will be on breaking through the theoretical limits of using lithium as the core compound in todays preferred battery chemistry. Many innovations have made in the labs around the world but so far none of them have been commercialised on a big scale, this is however just a matter of time :)
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As of now, because of severely limited charging infrastructure, and lack of incentives to build this infrastructure at every home, the use of EVs will continue to be exotic activity for decades to come, while the majority continue to burn diesel and gasoline and pollute like before.
Of course there has to be a critical mass of cars to do this. Standardization has so much benefit to the whole industry that I guess we will see it.
Cheap and Safe New Clear Power in the form of big sealed batteries powering a block of houses for 70 years before being replaced will start to roll out in 2040. That matches the critical mass of E Cars quite well. Excess heat of industrial units can then be used in the hot sulphur process to dissolve Water into cheap Hydrogen and Oxygen.
Plug and Play Battery replacement will be like replacing your camera's battery. Elon works on a colony of man on Mars I guess he will be able to make a battery replacement.
Betterplace was simply a few decades too early.
I see a bright future and my book is about this future.
I hope it will be a future with Nikon in it!
PS: do not forget artificial Photosynthesis, making Gasoline from dsunlight in the desert! You can power all the old cars with it.
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With the capacity of the safe li-ion technology now on par with the old unsafe li-ion technology the next innovation will be on breaking through the theoretical limits of using lithium as the core compound in todays preferred battery chemistry. Many innovations have made in the labs around the world but so far none of them have been commercialised on a big scale, this is however just a matter of time :)
For my part the big cards and the battery grips for my cameras solved the milage trouble I had with early Digital cameras.
If we see smaller units like the ones from Sony, Fuji, Panasonic and Olympus milage is still a problem in the battery sense. So for small cameras triple performace is a very good thing.
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Ilkka, I was referring to any type of fuel batteries. Hydrogen, alcohol or anything will do so long as it works. Lithium is not safe at all...
Won't any battery with a very large capacity be dangerous? One can short a 9V alkaline battery and it won't explode. It will probably burst, maybe pop and it will certainly ooze. Two spent 9V alkaline batteries can be joined to form a nice hand warmer.
Dave Hartman
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Won't any battery with a very large capacity be dangerous? One can short a 9V alkaline battery and it won't explode. It will probably burst, maybe pop and it will certainly ooze. Two spent 9V alkaline batteries can be joined to form a nice hand warmer.
A friend of mine put a bare 9V battery and a bunch of keys together in his pocket, and noticed the battery had become extremely hot. It may not have exploded, but could cause the fire for sure... :o :o :o
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A friend of mine put a bare 9V battery and a bunch of keys together in his pocket, and noticed the battery had become extremely hot. It may not have exploded, but could cause the fire for sure... :o :o :o
I've absent mindedly done this. I wonder what would happen if a fully charged Nikon EN-EL3 battery found the right set of keys in one's pocket? You go first. :)
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I've absent mindedly done this. I wonder what would happen if a fully charged Nikon EN-EL3 battery found the right set of keys in one's pocket? You go first. :)
Luckily and thankfully the designers of Li-ion batteries uses recessed contacts as opposed to the protruding ones of those dry batteries. :P
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A friend of mine put a bare 9V battery and a bunch of keys together in his pocket, and noticed the battery had become extremely hot. It may not have exploded, but could cause the fire for sure... :o :o :o
Once I had an overheating Sony Walkman, four AA batteries. I was able to pull them out before it became too hot to handle. They had started to melt. The Walkman was a write-off. I am sure that if I had not pulled out the batteries there would have been a fire. So even these small, everyday batteries can cause a serious problem.
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Long ago I saw a 410v battery for a Honeywell Strobonar potato masher smoldering and popping in the parking lot behind Gayson's Camera in Glendale, CA. I remember the owner running out the back door. So long ago I don't remember if the battery was in our out of the flash unit.
The Nikon EN-EL3 battery pack for the D300s does not have well protected contacts like the similar Nikon EN-EL15 battery pack for the D800. I'm sure the EN-EL3 can be shorted in a pocket with keys.
Dave
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Even the dry cells are fairly powerful nowadays. It is essential to avoid the shortage.