NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Michael Erlewine on January 15, 2017, 16:51:07
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Not sure whether to post here or in lenses, but to shutters are camera features, so here it is. I am trying to decide whether to get the new Hasselblad X1D (if it indeed arrives) or the Fuji GFX. I am familiar with focal-plane shutters from my DSLRs, etc., but not the “leaf shutter” that is in the lenses for the X1D?
My understanding is that the leaf shutter is most valuable for being able to synch with flashes at higher rates than 1/125 of a second. I have no strobe lights, but I do have some Nikon flashes. I never (hardly ever) use flash at all. I tend to use all constant lighting, so my questions are:
(1) How do I use the leaf-shutter lenses at higher rates to get greater DOF. And how valuable is that?
(2) Are there any pluses for using leaf-shutters for constant lighting or just for the kind of still-life photography work that I do? In other words, aside for flash are leaf shutters of any fvalue?
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A leaf shutter is incorporated in the lens itself, at the position of the aperture stop. It confers advantages and drawbacks compared to focal-plane shutters.
In the positive camp, a leaf shutter creates little vibrations, and allows for flash sync at any speed. They are also quite simple in design and maintenance is easy.
On the negative side, a leaf shutter is a necessary evil in the optical design and may directly influence what "speed" or optical solutions the designers come up with. It also adds to lens cost since in practice each lens has its own shutter. The shortest speeds are limited compared to focal-plane solutions. Don't expect shutter speeds to be very accurate, in particular the faster ones.
If one can use a camera with electronic "global" shutter, the leaf shutter becomes an anachronism.
The depth of field relates to the set aperture of the lens, not the shutter type per se.
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That was helpful, but I am still trying to understand what a leaf-shutter brings to my still-life (with no flash), if anything. I like the idea of no vibration. Wonderful. Yet, is there anything else that is good about it for my kind of focus-stacking whatever.
And, I should know this, but how does one use a leaf-shutter to sync flash? How would that help the kind of images I generally take?
Thanks for any info.
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The leaf shutter might be practically vibrationless, but needs to be cocked for every shot. Thus I'd imagine it isn't very practical for stacking applications. This with the caveat the leaf shutters on the newer systems might be controlled electronically not by mechanical means.
As for flash, all leaf shutter units have a flash synchro socket.
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The leaf shutter on the new Hasselbal X1D lenses is electronically controlled, and cocking of the leaf shutter should be automatic. The Haselblad H system DSLR lenses also employed electronically controlled leaf shutters. The X1D lens leaf shutter has a max speed of 1/2000 sec.
I agree, once global shutter is a reality, one can only be happy that the lenses are without the extra parts and limitations that a leaf shutter entails. Until then pros will love the leaf shutter lenses for their 1/2000 sec flash sync speed.
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The leaf shutter on the new Hasselbal X1D lenses is electronically controlled, and cocking of the leaf shutter should be automatic. The Haselblad H system DSLR lenses also employed electronically controlled leaf shutters. The X1D lens leaf shutter has a max speed of 1/2000 sec.
I agree, once global shutter is a reality, one can only be happy that the lenses are without the extra parts and limitations that a leaf shutter entails. Until then pros will love the leaf shutter lenses for their 1/2000 sec flash sync speed.
The flash sync speed is the whole ballgame? No other benefits for those of us who don't use flash? It makes me wonder if I should be getting a Fuji GFX.
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Not sure whether to post here or in lenses, but to shutters are camera features, so here it is. I am trying to decide whether to get the new Hasselblad X1D (if it indeed arrives) or the Fuji GFX. I am familiar with focal-plane shutters from my DSLRs, etc., but not the “leaf shutter” that is in the lenses for the X1D?
My understanding is that the leaf shutter is most valuable for being able to synch with flashes at higher rates than 1/125 of a second. I have no strobe lights, but I do have some Nikon flashes. I never (hardly ever) use flash at all. I tend to use all constant lighting, so my questions are:
(1) How do I use the leaf-shutter lenses at higher rates to get greater DOF. And how valuable is that?
(2) Are there any pluses for using leaf-shutters for constant lighting or just for the kind of still-life photography work that I do? In other words, aside for flash are leaf shutters of any fvalue?
IMO for all intent and purpose using a leaf shutter lens like the ones for a Hasselblad has no added value in combination with a DSLR
Yes a leaf shutter will cause less vibration then a camera's focal plane shutter and a (D)SLR's mirror flipping up (although a range finder camera like eg the Leica M also is/was renowned for the lower vibrations due to the lack of a moving mirror) .
But with regards to DoF they work the same as 'normal' lenses, close down the aperture and your DoF area will get bigger
Similarly in my experience (I have use with Sinar P and F, Linhof Technika large format camera in the past, and still have a Hasselblad set collecting dust in a closet) there is no difference between working with flash or continuous light with a leaf shutter lens, or a focal plane shutter in a camera
If anything, a focal plane shutter speed lens is more accurate then a all mechanical leaf shutter lens (like the old Hasselblad V lenses), which can risk becoming less accurate at higher shutter speeds (if the lens has not been used for a prolonged period with the shutter kept under tension), and have a maximum shutter speed that doesn't go as high as a DSLR e.g. on a Nikon D800 1/8000th, Hasselblad H lens 1/800th (the X1D has based on the specs a higher synch speed, but, despite having handled it at a demonstration of Hasselblad Nothern Europe distributor, considering its very, very, very limited availability is IMO close to being vaporware)
Considering the max synch speed of most modern DSLR's, 1/250th on my D800 (and film SLR's like e.g. the FE2, F100), even 1/320th with Nikon speedlights, and faster in combination with triggers like the Pocket Wizards TT5, or using the camera in FP mode (although that comes at the cost of reduced output) the advantage of using leaf shutter lenses at higher shutter speeds when using flash is IMO relative
Also, to use e..g. a Hasselblad lens on your Nikon, to begin with, you'll need a 'leaf shutter lens to Nikon' adapter
The only ones I know of are for the 'old ' V type lenses, which have a completely different mount from the H punt lenses for the XID and other H system camera's
For the V type adapters, I haven't found/don't know any adapter which has some kind of mechanical coupling to trigger the leaf shutter through the camera's standard release button, so that excludes the theoretical option of keeping the camera/Nikon focal plane shutter wide open while taking the picture using the lenses' leaf shutter
Most (if not all?) have no mechanism to trigger the leaf shutter with, it's just a basic adapter with a Nikon mount on one side, and a, in this example Hasselblad V, 'receiving' mount on the other.
Theoretically I suppose you could work out a system similar to working with a macro photography bellows system, with two cable releases to simultaneously trigger the camera and the lens
But that as far as I know isn't on the market so you would have to fabricate yourself
You put it on your Nikon, and mount the V type Hasselblad lens on the other side. To take the shot, you still use the focal plane shutter in your Nikon
But operation of/taking a shot with such a lens on a Nikon (D)SLRis is bit more complicated.
To begin with, since as said the/most adapters have no mechanism to trigger the leaf shutter, that simply isn't used, just the aperture mechanism in the lens, similar to a 'normal' lens, but without 'automatic' closing down of the aperture when the picture is taken
You leave the lens wide open to focus, but since there is no connection between the body and lens/aperture, can't use the lightmeter in the 'normal/wide open' wide. If you do want to use some kind of TTL metering, your only option is old (manual) fashioned stop down metering similar to using non electronically connected stop down metering (and consequently dimmer viewfinder while doing so)
To take the picture, you after focusing with a wide open lens, again have to stop down the aperture on the lens, after which you take the picture with the DSLR's (and SLR's) focal plane shutter.
Then open the aperture to get a clear image, to e.g. be able to (re)focus, and you're set to go for the next shot.
But, apart from the reputedly better optical performance of medium format lenses (I'm not a lens expert so can't comment on that) no added advantages of using a leaf shutter lens on a (D)SLR, just a lot of extra work.
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A leaf shutter built into a lens is a little like the aperture blades in the lens - they are blades which open and close. When the exposure is taken they open quickly and completely to expose the film/sensor, and then close quickly and completely when the exposure ends.
The fastest shutter speed is determined by how quickly the blades can open and close. To keep the shutter speed reasonably fast, the amount of travel is kept short, which means the lens diameter must be small - in other words leaf shutter lenses have relatively slow aperture compared to other lenses. That is why the new Hassy X1D lenses have smaller aperture than the equivalent Fuji GFX lenses.
The advantage of leaf shutter lenses is that they can flash sync at all shutter speeds, because when the shutter is open, the entire sensor is illuminated at once. With focal plane shutters, the entire sensor is only illuminated simultaneously at or below the flash-sync speed, which is usually 1/250 sec or slower depending on the camera model. At "faster" shutter speeds, the focal plane shutters do not move any faster, but the gap between the lead and trailing curtain narrows so that any part of the sensor is illuminated for a shorter time. At the fastest shutter speed only a very narrow slit is illuminated. This means flash cannot be used, or a series of pulses is needed so the entire sensor is illuminated (usually at lower power), or continuous lighting is required.
Michael, since your photography does not appear to rely on flash techniques, any advantage of the leaf shutter lens is lost, so you can set aside this feature in your assessments. If the optical quality, max aperture, close focus ability etc meet your requirements, then by all means use them, but the same goes for the Fuji system also. I hope that helps.
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That is why the new Hassy X1D lenses have smaller aperture than the equivalent Fuji GFX lenses.
If the GFX lenses have larger apertures than the X1D, is there any advantage to a larger vs. a smaller size.
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The problem of using a non-dedicated leaf-shutter lens with X1D is that you still have to use the electronic shutter in the camera set to the (much) longer speed than the one in the lens, and thus you would have to operate the shutter of the camera and the lens, which should be really clumsy.
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If the GFX lenses have larger apertures than the X1D, is there any advantage to a larger vs. a smaller size.
You mean larger aperture? That's for you to answer. I'm not sure what apertures you mostly use. For stacking I imagine you use many layers at large-ish apertures so that you can throw the background out of focus, and still achieve critical sharpness on your subject. Are the apertures of the announced X1D lenses fast enough for you (45mm f/3.5 and 90mm f/3.2) ?? If you mostly (always) shoot at around f/4 or smaller, then there is no problem with the X1D system. If you need f/2.8 or faster it would be difficult to adapt other lenses to the X1D system since it relies on lenses with built-in leaf shutter - these are not common and mostly slow anyway.
Also, as I mentioned in another thread, if your primary purpose is for closeups, neither of the X1D lenses are macro or focus closing, they are pretty standard non-macro lenses, so not well suited to the type of image you mostly produce. I don't think any extension tubes are available for this system, you could try using high-quality closeup diopters. Either option is a compromise, you would probably get better quality from your D810 and CV 125/2.5 or Otus.
On the other hand, Fuji have announced a macro lens for their GFX system - the GF 120/4 macro. Admittedly the max aperture here is f/4 so you are still restricted to slow-ish apertures, but at least you get a lens which is well corrected for close range subjects. If you want the faster aperture there is also the GF 110/2. This is likely designed as a portrait lens - maybe some intentional spherical aberration and field curvature for smooth bokeh (my guess). I can't find any details on how close it focuses, my guess around 0.9m (3 feet) at best - ie normal distance for this focal length, not close focusing.
It is entirely possible that a macro lens (likely 120/4) will be announced for the Hassy X1D at some point in the future, which might tip the balance towards this system, but it could be years away, if ever. Until either system actually shows up, there is no way of knowing how well they actually perform, but based on the current specs alone, I think the Fuji GFX is better for your needs (based on your historical shooting).
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Currently I don't think there is any way to adapt lenses to the Hasselblad X1D. I don't think there is any electronic shutter implemented in the camera. If there were, you probably wouldn't want to use it, due to various issues, like banding, readout time and dropping of bit depth. Since there is no focal plane shutter, there is no EFCS either.
=> With the X1D you can only use Hasselblad electronically controlled leaf shutter lenses.
With the Fuji GFX you have a focal plane shutter, so adapting lenses may be possible, if allowed in firmware. This is possible with the Fuji X system line of APS-C cameras.
Fuji has gained an excellent reputation with their X system lenses, and they have been keen on updating and improving the firmware in the X system camera, providing added value for their customers.
=> If Fuji continue all of this with their new medium format system, then Fuji GFX should be a great choice.
Considering the lens selection, Fujifilm as a lens maker is a well known quantity. Also Fujif GFX lenses have no leaf shutter, that will become redundant in the future with global shutters, which is plus for Fuji and a minus for Hasselblad, in my opinion. This assuming flash is not important.
A company called Nittoh in Japan makes the new lenses for the Hasselblad X1D. What do we know about Nittoh? For me this is still an unknown quantity.
=> Currently I would lean towards Fujifilm GFX, if I were to buy a medium format camera.
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If I was to venture into 'medium format' I would go all in for a Phase One XF 100MP, not just because it's Danish, which I'm quite proud of, but because it works,,, and it is a significant step up compared to even the D810,,,
Sensor 53.7 x 40.4 mm, 16 bit, 15 stop dynamic range, ISO 50,,,
It also features build in Focus Stacking,,,
Expensive, yes but please make an inventory and compare the two totals,,,
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I wouldn't sneeze at 100mp/ even though I don't need it.
Keep in mind that your PC/MAC needs to be able to keep up if you venture down this road.
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Surely, Phase One must be working on a mirrorless system, if they wish to stay in business.
A 100mp DSLR medium format, will require mandatory use of mirror-up, if the capabilities of the 100mp resolution sensor is to be exploited. This means using the camera in LV mode for focus stacking.
My guess is that Fujifilm GFX and the Hasselblad X1D will have the lions share of the medium format market in 2017, unless Leica and Phase One go mirrorless medium format in 2017 too.
I think that medium format DSLR only makes sense for professionals already invested in such systems. Those new to medium format should go mirrorless, considering the future.
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Surely, Phase One must be working on a mirrorless system, if they wish to stay in business.
A 100mp DSLR medium format, will require mandatory use of mirror-up, if the capabilities of the 100mp resolution sensor is to be exploited. This means using the camera in LV mode for focus stacking.
My guess is that Fujifilm GFX and the Hasselblad X1D will have the lions share of the medium format market in 2017, unless Leica and Phase One go mirrorless medium format in 2017 too.
I think that medium format DSLR only makes sense for professionals already invested in such systems. Those new to medium format should go mirrorless, considering the future.
I'm afraid the Phase One is a lot more sophisticated than you might think,,,
It has a build-in seismograph that monitor vibrations, it can be set to fire the shutter when there are no vibrations,,, This thing is light-years ahead of the competition,,,
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I'm afraid the Phase One is a lot more sophisticated than you might think,,,
It has a build-in seismograph that monitor vibrations, it can be set to fire the shutter when there are no vibrations,,, This thing is light-years ahead of the competition,,,
I'm not so sure that they are ahead of the competition, and if they don't have a mirrorless like the Fuji GFX or the Hasselblad X1D in the works, they are soon way behind.
I think it's better to get rid of the mirror altogether, than using impressive sounding and probably expensive contraptions to work around the limitations. A seismograph does sound impressive, but it's a workaround adding to the parts count in the camera.
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Frankly I would doubt if the sensor used in Fuji GFX and Hasselblad X1D offer sensible difference compared to, say Sony 42MP full-frame sensor.
The Sony sensor used in GFX and X1D is only 44x33mm in size. The difference between this sensor and a full-frame sensor is smaller than that between a full-frame sensor and an APS-C sensor. Also, the 44x33 Sony sensor can put out 14bit data and thus is not compatible with 16bit Opticolor+.
Phase One offers larger sensor (53.7x40.4mm) for IQ3 series which puts out true 16bit data and compatible with 16bit Opticolor+. The difference between the IQ3 sensor and a full-frame sensor should be sensible.
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Apparently the mirror-less think that the removal of a mirror makes it up for an inferior sensor, dynamic range and bit depth,,,
BTW there is a complete range of lenses that fits the Phase One.
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There is a shutter efficiency issue with leaf shutters. How much effect is determined by how fast the shutter can open and close. The shutter will always open fully but the faster the shutter speed the less time the shutter will be fully open. The shutter acts as an aperture that varies as it opens and closes. Older, slower, larger leaf shutter would be most likely to show this issue. It's only an issue for high shutter speeds. I never worried about shutter efficiency because I didn't shoot medium and large format transparencies at high shutter speeds. Also the shutters in lenses for the Hasselblad 500 series had top shutter speeds of 1/500th but in reality they were more like 1/350th which would compensate for the shutter efficiency.
The effect of shutter efficiency is to decrease exposure. For still life slower shutter speeds would normally be used so shutter efficiency would not be an issue.
Dave Hartman
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Apparently the mirror-less think that the removal of a mirror makes it up for an inferior sensor, dynamic range and bit depth,,,
No, they do not think such rubbish, as the global moderator suggests. >:(
BTW there is a complete range of lenses that fits the Phase One.
Good for Phaseone.
There's no point in further participation here.
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If I was to venture into 'medium format' I would go all in for a Phase One XF 100MP, not just because it's Danish, which I'm quite proud of, but because it works,,, and it is a significant step up compared to even the D810,,,
Sensor 53.7 x 40.4 mm, 16 bit, 15 stop dynamic range, ISO 50,,,
It also features build in Focus Stacking,,,
Expensive, yes but please make an inventory and compare the two totals,,,
Were I at the least a demi god I'd already own a Phase One XF 100MP with a macro, normal, half and double lens but as a mortal of the peasent class I can only dream.
Dave the Less
Why can't a peasent own a sword?
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There is a shutter efficiency issue with leaf shutters. How much effect is determined by how fast the shutter can open and close.
We might as well mention the other efficiency issue with leaf shutters. It is the increased exposure effect when using very small aperture stops. Since the little f/16 hole is fully uncovered longer than, say, a f/4 hole, it is fully exposed longer than the f/4 hole. The effect is small, less than a stop as I recall, and only had to be seriously considered when using finicky, contrasty slide films.
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I've heard that the very efficiency issue "functions" like the apodization filter (because the peripheral area is "dodged") and makes the bokeh somewhat smoother. Of course, that would depend highly on the balance between the actual speed of the leaves and the shutter speed.
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If the shutter is close to the aperture blades near the optical center, a semi-closed shutter shouldn't affect exposure into the image corners any more than a stopped down aperture does. When the aperture is wide open and the shutter speed is very fast, a significant fraction of the exposure will be while the shutter is opening and closing - not fully open. In that case the shutter is acting like a stopped-down aperture, so the exposure will be less than expected (shutter efficiency as previously mentioned), and the DOF will be greater than expected.
On the other hand, if the shutter is far from the optical center, the image corners could experience significantly less exposure than the center. This effect will be most noticeable when shooting at wide apertures, which is exactly were optical vignetting is strongest, vignetting increased further due to the shutter!
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An interesting discussion thus far. At one time I owned a fairly large Hasselblad system, most items were bought in the 70's and 80's so we are talking a while back! I agree with much that has been said. I suspect that shutter efficiency is one of the reasons Zeiss developed the 100mm Planar lens that was optimized for wide-open shooting at infinity, i.e., for aerial photography. As well there is no distortion due to different sides of the frame being exposed at different times (e.g., high shutter speed with FP shutters). In contrast the 80 Planar for SLRs (I have owned both the Hassy and Rollei versions and they behave the same) is quite poor wide open. They need to be set at least to f/5.6, better yet at f/8. Most of the Hassy C lenses needed to be stopped down a bit. Many were best around f/11. As well there is a tiny button below the winding crank on the side of 500C and later related bodies - This triggers the first part of the lens cycle and flips up the mirror. After this, the sound of the Compur shutter and Prontor shutter on later lenses is quite quiet. It is possible this new Hasselblad will be this quiet - we need to wait and see/hear. A quiet camera will be useful for certain shooting scenarios such as inside churches. I saw a top view comparing the new Hasselblad to the new Fuji and other cameras on the net a few days ago but can't seem to be able to find it now - it shows the Hassy as being much thinner than the Fuji. Thus the H might be a good choice for a field camera. Slower lenses could also mean lighter weight lenses...
One of the main disadvantages of the Hasselblad V system is that one was limited to the lenses provided by Hasselblad. The only 3rd party item that I recall was a teleconverter (I did not own this). About the time that the Nikon Ai lenses came out Hasselblad introduced the 2000 series cameras with focal plane shutters. I eventually bought two of them. They were not problem free. I once had to send a camera with a stuck on lens to Hasselblad for repair - it was stuck in the middle of the lens cycle. However, the cool thing was adapting other lenses. For me this included having a Bronica focusing mount for the Nikon super tele lenses modified to mount on a Hasselblad. I had owned the 500mm Tele-Tesssar lens but had a bad experience with it - it broke in two at the shutter while I was on a sailboat shooting a regatta in Puget Sound - not a good time for this to happen! As well the 500 had chromatic aberration that could be seen in a transparency without much magnification. The lens was only f/8. So I was eager to try out alternatives! I was able to find all 4 focal lengths of the Nikon super teles. The barrel of the focusing mount as well as the Hasselblad mount and sides of the body preclude these lenses from covering the full 54 x 54 mm of the format. Just a wee bit of the corners are cut off. No problem for any rectangular crop, however. I sold the 400 and 600mm but still have the 800 and 1200(ED version!) as well has the modified focusing mount and AU-1. It will be interesting to see what gets developed for the new Hassy in the way of lenses and how good they are. I suspect we will see more in the way of lenses from Fuji due to the focal plane shutter and the within company advantage of development and manufacture (i.e., vertical integration).
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Focal plane shutters: something to consider in regard to leaf v. focal plane flash sync.
The Nikon D800 and D300s both offer X-sync up to 1/320th or 1/250th second (both options) but one is not home free. With a speedlight such as an SB-700, 800, 900 or 910 there will be shading (not black band clipping) at the top of the frame at full and half power. By dropping to one quarter power or 1/200th at full power the problem goes away. I've seen this shading problem with a Norman 2000 XP also. The problem is inherent vice as Canon owners report the same. It is easiest to see on a light background such as a white seamless. I'll try to post test photos when I get home.
The issue here is the total shutter travel time and the T.10 flash duration. I'm searching for trough boxes in the "attic" for a proper explanation. It may be that the first curtain has started closing clipping the tail of the flash while the rest of the frame gets the full benefit of the dieing flash pulse.
Dave
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With all the new flash sync-types like for instance Elinchrom High Sync (HS) there is no need for leaf shutters at all.
On D810 or D5 the Elinchrom flashes (select types, HS) sync with up to 1/8000 without any problems at all!
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According to Fuji Rumors the new GFX will come with an optional (and quite expensive) adapter for Fuji 645 lenses for Hasselblad.
This has electronic contacts with the lens and you can choose whether to control the aperture from the body and use the camera shutter or use the lens shutter.
http://www.fujirumors.com/leaked-images-specs-fujifilm-gfx-lens-adapters-wcltcl-x100-ver-ii/ (http://www.fujirumors.com/leaked-images-specs-fujifilm-gfx-lens-adapters-wcltcl-x100-ver-ii/)
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The flash sync speed is the whole ballgame? No other benefits for those of us who don't use flash? It makes me wonder if I should be getting a Fuji GFX.
The leaf shutter is useful in two situations. What they have in common is the use of flash mixed with ambient light.
One situation is where you want to use flash to stop motion while keeping the ambient lighting high. The duration of a flash is very short - 1/1000 sec or so. The fact that the camera shutter is open for 1/200 sec or so does not matter if there is no other light, because the only exposure will be during the flash. But if there is enough other light to produce exposure the whole time the shutter is open you get ghosts - partial images of the moving subject. So leaf shutters enable you to stop motion either outdoors in daylight or in the studio while having enough ambient light to see what you are doing.
The second is when you want to do take pictures outdoors in bright light with fill flash, but you want a large aperture for shallow depth of field - which will cause extreme over-exposure if the shutter speed has to be 1/200. Of course, you can save a few thousand dollars and use a neutral density filter with a focal plane shutter, unless the dim viewfinder image is unacceptable.
There are examples of both at https://fujilove.com/flash-fuji-and-leaf-shutters/