NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Andy on November 10, 2016, 23:30:27
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//feel free to add your own comments/images to the thread
My copy arrived yesterday with my dealer and I had a chance to pick it up earlier today. Unfortunately, I had not much time for more extensive shooting/testing, but thought you might be interested in some initial impressions (and RAW files).
The size difference to the predecessor is not that much. If the precessor would not be around, someone would be inclined to say - same size, same weight. Not much change.
From a build perspective it feels similar as well
Boy, the AF is fast. Can't say with the limited shots I did today HOW much faster it is, but is significantly faster (tested on the D5). Nice.
The flipped AF/focus rings. 2 obstacles: One is real, one is just a habit thing.
1) The habit one. Years of 70/80-200mm lenses had it in same position and given the frequent use, it becomes over time an automatic, subconscious thing. B ut the new FL E had it arranged in the same way like the AFS 24-120mm. Depending where you come from, you might need to adjust your habit. No problem in normal shooting, but more errorprone when fast reaction is needed - the old automatism is still in my way. I am much more often changing focal length than manually changing focus, so from this perspective the new arrangement is (currently) the better one, as long I am shooting slowly (to avoid getting in my automatism trap). I do thing this arrangement will be much better when you I follow a fast moving subject and I have to change focal length while tracking and shooting (i.e. an object moving diagonal as it closes in) - to be verified.
2) The reversed sun shade issue: This is the same issue like with the AFS 24-120mm. If the sun shade is reversed in the park position, it is almost impossible to reach the focal length ring without removing the sun shade. It might cost precious time in those circumstances, where the photog need to react fast and the sunshade is still in travel position.
If the fast AF required the reversal of the rings, then I prioritize the fast AF benefit over the experience reversal of the rings. Don't know, if the 2 things depend on each other, just in case.
AF accuracy was out of the box very good with the D5. Didn't do any AF adjustment yet. Similar experience as with the AFS 105mm/1.4E, it just works. Haven't checked outer AF focus field accuracy yet (the Sigma Art AF test)
Very nice and unexpected close MFD at 200mm, seems to be longer with shorter focal length (need to check this again)
A few first and quick images, just resized down to 1500x1000 to save NG bandwidth. Please use the filename under the image as index to the RAW files in this directory (https://onedrive.live.com/?id=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A%212077&cid=C59FEF9F04ED4A3A), in case you wan't to check out the RAWs directly.
Photos:
1) Visible vignetting with f2.8
2) Same subject with f 5.6.
3) Taken at MFD (plus a few centimeters), f 2.8, AF+reframed
4) f 2.8, AF+reframed
5) like 4), but f8
6) Cat eyes on the border of the frame at f2.8
7) 200mm/f2.8 at 20m distance
8 ) Not sure where the reflections are coming from
9) 175mm/f2.8 at approx 50m distance
Next images will be nicer :-)
rgds, Andy
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First impressions:
- looks sharp - as you would expect
- vignetting is visible at f2.8
- background bokeh is smooth
One other early review noted that although the new lens is only 100g lighter than the previous model, the center of gravity is further back (less weight out front due to the Fluorite element), so that if feels much less of a lump.
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Thanks Andy, looks like the lens is very capable, close-ups confirm that the focus breathing is acceptable.
Your point 2) Is what I would call a non issue but maybe that's just me :)
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A few remarks:
The new 70-200, not unexpectedly, hot spots in IR.
The arrangement of focusing and zooming rings actually immensely improves hand-held operation. This was instantaneously obvious when I mounted the lens on smaller cameras such as the D5300 (for IR) or the Df. In fact, this is the first AFS lens that felt at home on my Df. Very easy to zoom and focus with the fingers on the left hand. The tripod foot, which is conveniently rounded in front, played an instrumental part as it cradles nicely into the palm of your left hand and thus adds support and enhances lens control.
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Andy can you explain the distortion of the rain gutter in the last image with the roof, is the house not straight or?
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Comparing the placement of things on the last 3 generations.
Left: AFS 70-200mm/2.8 VR II
Center: AFS 70-200mm/2.8 FL E
Right: AFS 70-200mm/2.8 VR I
rgds, Andy
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They even made the front of the petal shaped lens hood flat again so that it doesn't tumble over when put down front first on the hood :)
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Erik,
I would not try to analyse distortion from my first shots, they had been really "snapshots".
As focus breathing has been discussed, here a quick set of shots.
Distance target to sensor plane approx. 2 meter
1) AFS 70-200mm/2.8 VR I
2) AFS 70-200mm/2.8 VR II
3) AFS 70-200mm/2.8 FL E
4) AFS 200mm/2 VR I
rgds, Andy
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OK, but it looks like huge pincushion distortion,,, :) We will know later.
And all four at their respective minimum focus distance and 200mm?
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And all four at their respective minimum focus distance and 200mm?
No, all at 2 meter distance (sensor plane - target) and set to 200mm.
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Sorry I was not clear.
I would like to see the images from minimum focus distace since that is the use case for focus breathing IMHO :)
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I would like to see the images from minimum focus distace since that is the use case for focus breathing IMHO :)
I guess it depends on the application. These different lenses have greatly differing minimum focus distances (MFDs) so the perspectives and image content in the case of 3D subjects would change as well, if shooting at MFD for each lens. For me the comparison at a fixed distance as shown is more useful. If I'm shooting a wedding ceremony and want a close-up of an individual some distance awway, I am not going to walk to 1m of the subject to make the close-up possible with a shorter lens; my closest position is dictated by the circumstances and it would be inappropriate to get that close just to get a tight framing; I think the photographer should stay some distance back. For other purposes this might be perfectly fine, of course.
So it looks like there is less focus breathing than in the Mk II but more than with the prime. Good. I can save some money that is needed for a particular 19mm lens. :)
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Sorry I was not clear.
I would like to see the images from minimum focus distace since that is the use case for focus breathing IMHO :)
I see you point, but the 4 lenses have 4 different MFD's (1.1, 1.4, 1.5 and 1.9 meter) and magnification factors.
I thought the easiest comparision for a quick first assessment was to use a distance all 4 could accomodate.
How should the setup be, that the 4 shots at MFD are comparable or show an easy to understand difference ?
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Thanks Andy; A typical use for this lens is to be able to shoot a close-up portrait,,,
Illka, In your case, the wedding shooting at distance, focus breathing is a non-issue since you could just step one step forward, climb one row and that's it,,,
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Yes, by switching rings, the FB problem is, mostly, addressed! At minimal distance, it will be about 170mm, what is fully acceptable, instead of 135mm on G version (actually, it is acceptable, too, but if someone is very picky...). Looks like it is new Nikon's winner, that E version! Thanks, Andy, for very useful info! LZ
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Illka, In your case, the wedding shooting at distance, focus breathing is a non-issue since you could just step one step forward, climb one row and that's it,,,
It is of some significance. MFD doesn't come into play since I'm typically at least 5 m away. However, even at that distance the difference in framing between the 70-200/2.8 II and 200/2 II is quite big. In many situations I need more focal length (audience reaction close-ups, musical performers, speeches) and the geometry of the church and discretion prevents closer approach. A 300/4 is not giving enough light, a 300/2.8 would but would be quite an ordeal to lug around and sometimes I have to leave quickly to the car with the couple. So I don't want to leave a lot of expensive stuff behind. A 70-200/2.8 which would maintain proper angle of view expected from a 200mm would be an improvement. However, at an upgrade cost of 2050€ and only partial improvement in this respect, I'm not too excited. When the price (without trade-in) is 2200-2400€ then there is reason to revisit the subject. It sounds like the new version's AF is improved, so that's worth something in my mind, but the existing G II version already has excellent AF which rarely produces an out of focus image. But I don't want to pay 600€ more than someone will pay in one or two years just to get it early. If it is worth it for someone else, I couldn't say; I suppose many will buy it.
I don't use the 70-200/2.8 for close-up portraits. I find it too intimidating. I use the 70-200/4 (which incidentally gives much narrower framing at 200mm than the f/2.8 II), and 85mm and 105mm primes in the studio for close-ups and typically 24-70 for full body or half body images.
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The new 70-200 appears to be a high performance optic. The near absence of chromatic errors makes for crisp and clear images. I am surprised how well the complex design with all its glass inside (a staggering 22 elements of various kinds) tackle strong light sources. Even shooting directly into the sun does not trigger chromatic aberrations and contrast keeps up well to.
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Again at 200mm, now at the near limit of approx 1.1 m. I'm shooting the latest snow pack skidding off my roof. The lack of any chromatic nasties is welcome and as evident from the image, blur circles even with the lens at an intermediate aperture (f/7.1) are pleasantly rounded in shape.
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Erik,
please find enclosed 4 shots at the MFD of each lens (& 200mm)
D75_0532: VR I
D75_0533: VR II
D75_0534: FL E
D75_0535: AFS 200mm/2 VR I
rgds, Andy
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Thanks Andy! Nice boot :) Confirms the numbers :)
Bjørn, Nice so far indeed,,,
How are the out of focus highlights, Cats eyes or rounded, almost round?
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Erik, please see D5D_7910 in my first post (The chain lock picture). You will see some cat eyes there
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A few remarks:
The new 70-200, not unexpectedly, hot spots in IR.
The arrangement of focusing and zooming rings actually immensely improves hand-held operation. .... Very easy to zoom and focus with the fingers on the left hand. The tripod foot, which is conveniently rounded in front, played an instrumental part as it cradles nicely into the palm of your left hand and thus adds support and enhances lens control.
That description meets exactly what was my first impression
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Erik, please see D5D_7910 in my first post (The chain lock picture). You will see some cat eyes there
I need to see more please :)
Afraid that the chain shape makes them look different,,,
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I'll make you some cat's eyes then :D
I'll do a night shot to study coma etc. later tonight. Probably will be able to make some cat's eyes by slight defocusing in that setting.
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Flashlight, approx 10m, f22, crop
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Erik,
please find enclosed 4 shots at the MFD of each lens (& 200mm)
D75_0532: VR I
D75_0533: VR II
D75_0534: FL E
D75_0535: AFS 200mm/2 VR I
rgds, Andy
The results are as expected from the specifications:
70-200 VR I - 1:5.6 (1.4m with manual focus)
70-200 VR II - 1:8.3
70-200 FL E - 1:4.7
200/2 VR - 1:8.1
The VRII and 200/2 both frame the boot almost identically at MFD, not surprisingly since the magnification is almost the same.
the VRI and FL versions also have very similar framing at MFD, although from the specs I would have expected the FL to frame a bit tighter...
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Mine is here 8)
Lots of photos are already surfing and the big "gurus" are sharing their findings...
I would like to share two things that normally don't receive much attention...
1. The lens hood has been corrected and now the lens can stand on top of it
2. Nikon has much improved the foot support plate (look at the photos)
On this one MkII the plate was very thin being distorted fairly easily. Look closely and you can see the RRS logo. Yes, I have already replaced the original one a couple of years ago. Tried my best to find the Nikon one, but if my memory serves me well, it was bent and must has been filled!!
See the new one, much beefier and much stronger. Well done Nikon.
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The results are as expected from the specifications:
70-200 VR I - 1:5.6 (1.4m with manual focus)
70-200 VR II - 1:8.3
70-200 FL E - 1:4.7
200/2 VR - 1:8.1
Thats good news
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Mine is here 8)
Lots of photos are already surfing and the big "gurus" are sharing their findings...
I would like to share two things that normally don't receive much attention...
1. The lens hood has been corrected and now the lens can stand on top of it
2. Nikon has much improved the foot support plate (look at the photos)
On this one MkII the plate was very thin being distorted fairly easily. Look closely and you can see the RRS logo. Yes, I have already replaced the original one a couple of years ago. Tried my best to find the Nikon one, but if my memory serves me well, it was bent and must has been filled!!
See the new one, much beefier and much stronger. Well done Nikon.
And that is good news as well, the new foot is good support for handheld use, but a arca plate will be attached or the foot itself to be replaced if tripod use is planned
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I compared the reflections of the FL-E vs. the VR II. Camera D5
LED Flashlight, approx 3 Meter, 200mm, f2.8, 100% crop
Flare/Contrast/Halo is much better controlled
Interesting, the VR II has more flare, but also a more "harmonic" pattern, vs. the FL E, which has lower flare, but an uneven pattern. The uneven pattern I've seen before, that's why I looked into this.
1) VR II
2) FL E
3) The original photo, which triggered my curiousity (D750, FL E). I wasn't sure, if the D750 filter array caused it. 100% crop (pls consider the different resolution)
Andy
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And Nikon continues to amaze me...
Tried to register the lens... and... not yet on the data base... ;D ;D
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It's on my database :)
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O-oh ... improved tripod mount is hard to resist. :o
Interesting, the flare patterns. I guess the case shown is a rather extreme case. The G II version does produce a white cloud like flare that spreads quite widely if a strong point light source is hitting the front element. However, it is not a bad effect as such.
How is the long distance sharpness with the new E version? Thanks.
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It's on my database :)
;)
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It's a weather change going on and thick fog is rolling in from the Oslo Fjord. Thus largely preventing my planned set up for detecting coma. I only managed a few shots before the scenery literally disappeared.
However, from what I saw, coma is not an issue at least at middle apertures (f/6.3 in this case, lens at 200 mm and infinity focus).
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Here is a corner crop 100% from one of the few test images. The fog starts to reduce scene contrast quite heavily (one of the last frames before I aborted the test sequence). Still lens quality and the way it copes with the point light sources come through. No visible coma and only the very mildest vestiges of lateral CA if the frame is scrutinised at high magnification. Some pincushion distortion is visible at 200 mm, though, but few scenes would necessitate any correction.
A 13 sec exposure with the Df, using the Sachtler ENG 2 CF HD as support. The tripod mount for once is adequate. Not perfect, but still better than what most Nikkors of recent lineage have exhibited.
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Impressive performance ! Food for thought,,, Thank you
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Apparently the petal-shaped lens hood is designed so that all petals are of the same length, and you can put the lens alone or the lens/camera combo on the floor with the hood down with relatively less worry...
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Given how narrow and top heavy such a lens + camera combination would be, I would never put it down on the hood. Even the slightest of nudge would likely make it fall. I am not immune to accidents (far from it) but this is just asking for one to happen. Much like leaving a car standing on neutral without brake and leaving it, hoping that there is no inclination in the road.
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Impressive performance ! Food for thought,,, Thank you
You may count me second on this, hmmm... LZ
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Given how narrow and top heavy such a lens + camera combination would be, I would never put it down on the hood. Even the slightest of nudge would likely make it fall. I am not immune to accidents (far from it) but this is just asking for one to happen. Much like leaving a car standing on neutral without brake and leaving it, hoping that there is no inclination in the road.
When I'm shooting stage performaced and am stuck in a seat and have to manouver two cameras I find a flat-headed lens shade to be very useful as it allows me to keep the camera not in use on the floor between my legs.
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When I'm shooting stage performaced and am stuck in a seat and have to manouver two cameras I find a flat-headed lens shade to be very useful as it allows me to keep the camera not in use on the floor between my legs.
While it is completely understandable, it is really convenient in your case, but todays light helicoids... you see... heavy camera and lens itself... LZ
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Apparently the petal-shaped lens hood is designed so that all petals are of the same length, and you can put the lens alone or the lens/camera combo on the floor with the hood down with relatively less worry...
Hi Akira, see my comment about this. Yes it's correct.
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Given how narrow and top heavy such a lens + camera combination would be, I would never put it down on the hood. Even the slightest of nudge would likely make it fall. I am not immune to accidents (far from it) but this is just asking for one to happen. Much like leaving a car standing on neutral without brake and leaving it, hoping that there is no inclination in the road.
You can always use the rigid rubber one from Mamiya. Perfect for this.
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Hi Akira, see my comment about this. Yes it's correct.
Pedro, sorry to miss your post! :P
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You're welcome :)
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They even made the front of the petal shaped lens hood flat again so that it doesn't tumble over when put down front first on the hood :)
,,, While for instance changing lenses and mounting the rear lens cap,,, :o :o :o I'm not in the habit of knocking over lenses :o
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You're welcome :)
,,, While for instance changing lenses and mounting the rear lens cap,,, :o :o :o I'm not in the habit of knocking over lenses :o
Pedro, apparently we are not alone. :o :o :o
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A tall lens that is standing on its hood can be knocked about even if the photographer is careful. For example, some kid can run around and knock it over. I once experienced a lens being flown like this. I have no idea why that kid decided that between my legs there was enough space to go through. He didn't notice the lens which landed a couple of meters away. The lens survived, I was lucky. I try to set things so that this kind of events are unlikely. By putting the lens on its side is one approach to minimize probability of a fall.
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Just goes to show different approaches to handling gear, insurance covers accidental damages, even by kids.
These lenses and all of the long tele lenses has rubber bumpers on the front of the lens for the same reason, also the lens hoods of the long teles has rubber bumpers :)
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Bystanders are always a potential danger when one swaps lenses. Doesn't really matter if the lens is stood on its hood (most convenient) or put on the side (less convenient). They can make sudden moves and topple your gear over or kick it away in the blink of a second.
All the long lenses from Nikon are designed to be stood front down. That has been the main principle for decades.
The weather change of yesterday leading to fog and rain has thwarted my attempts of landscape shooting with the 70-200E. Aargh. Not to mention how the weather restricts outdoors use of the 19 PC-E with its massive unprotected bulbous front :(
The conclusions up to now for the 70-200E indicate one really gets optical superiority in return for all the money the lens costs. Plus handling is much better in my opinion than that of its predecessors. The latter point should be stressed as initially some assertions to the contrary were made on various web sites.
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Its evitable of advantage when you can place the lens onits hood somewhat stable at least temporarily
The evidence condenses that in terms of IQ and handling this new lens is a significant improvement, i might go for it, avoided the 70-200s is far and still use the 80-200 AF-S. Dont use it much because this lens type is not of primary importance for me
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I applied today the best possible protection for the new lens. I mixed it up with the VR II and had the wrong lens with me ;) (Not that the G lens is a bad lens, but the E was the one I wanted to give try). Had the lens on my camera body , thought it was the E, didn't pay too much attention and packed the G lens. The E lens was in another room. Silly me. Won't probably happen again :)
Unfortunately, no speedy AF tests with the E then (I spare you the G pictures).
Took only a few E photos in my garden when I came back. The low MFD is very compelling. Didn't miss it with the G until I tried the E. Bokeh at MFD is particularly creamy, so a short MFD is a nice add-on in the bokeh department as well.
Ghosting/flare:
At 200mm the lens is very flare resistant. Having the sun just outside the visible frame doesn't produce flares (at least not during the short period where I deliberaty tried to produce some).
It is different at the short end. At 70mm and at f2.8 it is relatively easy to produce visible flare. Stopping down a bit suppresses flare very fast. At f8, the same scene that produced flare at f2.8 is more or less "clean".
rgds,
Andy
1) This is what I wanted to do with the E lens, while walking the dog. Screwed it up.
2) I have the impression, that the D5 produces in the average "warmer" pictures with the E vs. the G lens. Don't know if this by the optical elements or coatings in the lens, or rather driven by different firmware settings.
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Things like that can always happen Andy, especially when the lens collection is huge
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I managed to get my hands on the new 70-200E. I immediately noticed the lighter weight. My fingers naturally fall on the zoom ring, it seems to be in perfect position. I could not inadvertently nudge the focus ring. In the VR G II version, the focus ring is further out than the zoom ring of the new lens, and the weight distributions are different. I was initially concerned about the ring swap but it turns out unfounded. The new lens has a tripod foot which is a tighter fit in the dovetail and feels more firm.
I fear that resistance may now be pointless. ;-)
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Your experiences echo mine, Ilkka. A true quality optic from Nikon and the change in lens layout appears to be functional and very well thought out.
Only difference is my resistance might be more firm as I tend not to employ this lens class for my normal work. I keep repeating that phrase for myself all the time :D
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Another recent test comparing new 70-200 E against the G model. It sharpens my appetite for this new lens all the more!
http://nikonrumors.com/2016/11/19/nikon-af-s-nikkor-70-200mm-f2-8e-fl-ed-vr-lens-review.aspx/
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Agree with these observations, except for the apparently tacked-on comment about handling issues. Seems like the reviewer just remembered people were talking about this so had to throw in a comment. No explanation why the problem should exist, which is strange if he really used the lens, as it handles perceptibly better than the older model ....
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Agree with these observations, except for the apparently tacked-on comment about handling issues. Seems like the reviewer just remembered people were talking about this so had to throw in a comment. No explanation why the problem should exist, which is strange if he really used the lens, as it handles perceptibly better than the older model ....
Yes, I agree fully. I finally got to try this lens on my D500 - last week at Grays in London. All too short, though. The graphics and AF are certainly impressive The positions of focus and zoom gave me no problems
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First Futsal game covered and boy, for the first 10~15 min I was lost with the controls... One thing is thinking about them, other is doing as second nature, in the heat of the action.
But after those horrifying looooonnnng minutes, things started to get natural, and at the end I was not thinking at all to zoom in-out, or to quickly correct focus. Not yet tried the focus memory, thought.
IQ is brilliant, AF speed from outside of this world, VR more than capable, contrast spectacular, and very, very flare resistant. The zoom ring is so smooth, that seems not to be connected...
Did everything handheld, and in fact the foot does not only help as a hand support, but acts, as a perfect platform to control the lens.
All in all, a piece of joy, that you don't want to put it down.
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Lens Rentals MTF Tests:
https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/11/nikon-70-200mm-f2-8e-fl-ed-af-s-vr-mtf-tests/
The new lens measures better than the old version and also the Canon 70-200 IS II
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Finally, decided to purchase the 70-200mm f/2.8E FL. Should arrive tomorrow. By the way, it will my first purchase of a lens belonging to the Holy Trinity 😉
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First Futsal game covered and boy, for the first 10~15 min I was lost with the controls... One thing is thinking about them, other is doing as second nature, in the heat of the action.
But after those horrifying looooonnnng minutes, things started to get natural, and at the end I was not thinking at all to zoom in-out, or to quickly correct focus. Not yet tried the focus memory, thought.
IQ is brilliant, AF speed from outside of this world, VR more than capable, contrast spectacular, and very, very flare resistant. The zoom ring is so smooth, that seems not to be connected...
Did everything handheld, and in fact the foot does not only help as a hand support, but acts, as a perfect platform to control the lens.
All in all, a piece of joy, that you don't want to put it down.
My experience is the same except with dancers instead. Formidable lens
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First pictures with the new lens. As always, with my on hand model, the English Bulldog .... At 120 mm f/2.8
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Both are keepers, the lens and the dog! :)