NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: John G on July 09, 2016, 15:46:24
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Hello
I have a question about the PN-11. I intend on purchasing one very soon as part of building the equipment to start taking more dedicated macro images.
I intend on coupling this to a 105mm f2.8 as my go to kit. Whilst searching out a 105mm I would like to use the PN-11 on a few of my other lenses.
I am looking for a few pointers on how to extract the best from a PN-11, whilst coupled to a 105mm f2.8 ais as well as the 200mm f4 and 85mm f1.4,
if there are any other favoured combinations I would be happy to hear of theseas well.
I started to attempt macro in the past year using a 50mm f1.8D reverse mounted on a 200mm f4 ais.
I have been attending YOGA to learn controlled breathing, to overcome the difficulties of dealing with a cigarette paper thin FOV. :) :)
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The PN-11 is a perfect match for the 105/4 micro-nikkor, as then you can reach 1:1 magnification.
I have used it with pleasure coupled to other lenses such as the 200/4 AiS, 300/4.5 AiS, 180/2.8 AiS, 85/1.4 AF-D, Heligon 100/1.6, and even with the 45P but then the magnification is HUGE :)
Yoga is something we all need I guess ::)
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Not much complicated about the PN-11. You'll notice that the PN-11 has a tripod mount on it. The tripod mount is for when you get tired of blurred hand-held shots.
But seriously, if you are outdoors, wind is the enemy, tripod or not.
First, try all your lenses with everything locked down: camera on tripod with an immovable subject. This way, you'll be able to get an idea what each lens is capable of, picture quality-wise, when it's used on the tube.
If shooting handheld and outdoors where wind and body shake are factors, one very nice thing about today's modern cameras is that you can rapidly make several(or many) exposures, thereby increasing the odds that one of the shots will have been timed just right, at the point where the wind has momentarily calmed and subject movement has ceased, while simultaneously catching the short moment where your heart beat generated body movement has stopped, all while holding your breath.
If it is me, I'm usually kneeling on sharp-edged gravel or embedded rocks while wearing short pants, so a romantic element of torture..."anything to get the shot"... is added. All great fun.
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The PN-11 is a perfect match for the 105/4 micro-nikkor, as then you can reach 1:1 magnification.
I have used it with pleasure coupled to other lenses such as the 200/4 AiS, 300/4.5 AiS, 180/2.8 AiS, 85/1.4 AF-D, Heligon 100/1.6, and even with the 45P but then the magnification is HUGE :)
Yoga is something we all need I guess ::)
I could use a chiropractor more then a Yoga instructor
I found that the 200mm f4 Nikkor-Q.C is significantly sharper then the 200 f4 Ai-S when used with tubes lik ethe PK-13 and the PN-11.
The 135mm f3,5 Nikkor-Q.C also works really well
The 80-200 f4 Ai-S Zoom Nikkor works well with a PK-13 or PN-11
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For the PN-11 you need an Arca Swiss plate with a risen tab, that will prevent it from twisting when tripod mounted. This since the PN-11 has a very small surface mating with the plate.
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... or just run a second screw through the plate into the tripod mounting base.
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Another vote for an A-S plate for the foot of PN-11. RRS 5A plate is the best. The plate is discontinued but well worth looking for.
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Hello and Thank you
This is a excellent set of guidelines more than I expected and very motivational for me.
I have a set of lenses I can start with on the arrival of the PN-11.
I will need to give some thought on how to include a tripod into some of my subject pursuits, for a while now I,ve
been pondering the idea of utilising kit already owned, the Manfrotto 393 Gimbal Head suspended from a upside down
centre column was going to be a method to be tried, due to it being able to achieve a rigid multi positioning, with very
quick tracking capabilities.
This would temporarily omit the need for a AS or RRS base plate, does this sound acceptable ?
I have passed my initiation on " getting down and dirty " there has been many
occasions when a Bramble Bush, Nettle Bed, Thistles, or Gorse have been treated mentally as a welcoming
barrier. The legs in the shorts and the whispered expletives tell the truth of how we are welcomed.
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John, the reason for us to recommend an A-S plate is, as bjornthun noted, that the foot of the tripod collar on PN11 is so small that there will not be enough friction to keep it in place, no matter how strongly you tighten the 1/4 screw, regardless of the type of the tripod head.
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I have a small Manfrotto ballhead (234RC) with a release plate which fits the PN-11 perfect. I use that ballhead also on a Feisal monopod.
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Been there and done that. ;D ;D ;D
John, down the track it might be a good idea to keep an eye on Ebay, and pick up an extra PN-11 or two when they are not too expensive. Then you might add a CPU chip to a PN-11 that can be dedicated to the lens that you use most with a PN-11 and keep the other PN-11(s) for the rest of the lens(es) you use in conjunction with a PN-11.
Hello and Thank you
This is a excellent set of guidelines more than I expected and very motivational for me.
................................................................
I have passed my initiation on " getting down and dirty " there has been many
occasions when a Bramble Bush, Nettle Bed, Thistles, or Gorse have been treated mentally as a welcoming
barrier. The legs in the shorts and the whispered expletives tell the truth of how we are welcomed.
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Hello and more Thank you's
I have dug out a Sirui G-20 Ball Head with a Sirui quick release plate on it. I would be happy to modify this
plate to work with a extra screw for improved stability if needed.
It seems I am narrow minded on the 393 Gimbal and have offered the ball head to it as a secondary
attachment and it looks like it will work, when the Gimbal is being suspended from a centre column. I like the
idea of how quickly the Gimbal can be repositioned. If after use I feel it is a valuable contribution, I will post a
few images of it in operation.
As for collecting camera lens accessories at a discounted price, that is very muck me. The idea of Multiple
PN-11's and adding a CPU chip is pure Belgium Chocolate.
l am learning about these CPU chips daily, as I have one in a recently purchased 500mm f4 AIP.
I had used two Dandelion chips in a 300mm f2.8, both have been destroyed due to being fragile.
The intention is to create the same performance of the 500mm in the 300mm. I have started a discussion on
this.
What are the advantages of having a PN-11 CPU chipped with a non CPU chipped ais lens ?
Will a non CPU chipped ais lens offer focus trap if coupled to a CPU chipped PN-11 ?
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Hanging anything down from a reversed centre column can only be awkward in handling and unstable as a camera platform. You need a tripod that can readily splay its legs fully to the side and perhaps even beyond that.
The CPU in an extension ring will act as a proxy on behalf of its hosted lens. As long as there is a continues chain of aperture levers from camera to host lens, all is well. For the utmost accuracy, however, here as elsewhere setting the aperture on the lens is the preferred mode of operation.
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Though not generally for downward-looking shots, don't forget the possible use of a sandbag, backpack, Steadibag(a pillow filled with plastic beads...much lighter than sand!), or other soft device to keep the camera motionless or nearly motionless while in the field and near the ground.
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I intend on coupling this to a 105mm f2.8 as my go to kit. Whilst searching out a 105mm I would like to use the PN-11 on a few of my other lenses.
Assuming the 105/2.8 is a 105/2.8 AIS Micro-Nikkor that lens uses close range correction to maintain a flat field when focused close. If one uses the 105/2.8 AIS Micro on a PN-11 when the lens is focused towards what would be infinity without the PN-11 the CRC group will be in or near the infinity position and not in the close focus position. If a PN-11 is used with the lens in this position the CRC group will be in the wrong position for best results. For better results one can use a Nikon PK-12 then a PK-13 tube and finally a PN-11 tube to obtain an image scale from 0.5x to 1.0x (1:2 to 1:1).
If using a PN-11 for image ratios of 1:2x to 1:1 Nikon has a scale in orange marked "PN" and suggested apertures, e.g. 11 ~ 32, 5.6 ~ 32, 4 ~ 32 ...
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The paragraph below is a good example of bad writing and loose logic. I'll try again in a post on the next page. :-[
I use a Wimberley P-10 Acra-Swiss type plate to give a larger surface area when on a tripod. It has anti-swivel tabs as most plates have. It also accepts Kirkphoto's older macro flash arms.
I made block for using a PN-11 with my fat 105/4.0 AI Micro-Nikkor. Here is a photo...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/662/21650205452_55d6e5e19b_n.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/662/21650205452_55d6e5e19b_b.jpg)
Please click image for a larger view.
Hope this helps,
Dave
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To put it another way, when using macro lenses with floating elements (close range correction / CRC) on extension tubes, it is best to keep the lens focused as close as possible, so the optics are best configured for macro shooting, and use the shortest possible extension tube to achieve the desired magnification.
Consider the AIS 105/2.8 micro, which focuses to 1:2 by itself. For magnifications just beyond 1:2, using the short PK-11 tube (8mm extension) would require the lens to be racked all the way out where it is best configured for macro shooting. If the PN-11 were used instead (52.5mm) the focus ring would need to be set close to infinity, where the optics are not well configured for macro. The two setups will give the same magnification, but the using the short PK-11 will give better results. If corner sharpness is not an issue (eg focusing on flower stamens while the petals to the sides are out of focus) then you can be more flexible in your arrangements. Experiment and see what works.
I will echo what others have said about the quick release plate for the PN-11, well worth having.
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Some nice metalwork here David on your riser blocks. I also have a fat 105/4.0 Micro-Nikkor (AiS in my case).
The PN-11 has but a single 1/4" threaded tripod mounting hole. Did you put in any extra threaded holes or holes on the mounting base of the PN-11 to locate dowelling to curb any tendency for the PN-11 to rotate off axis when mounted to your riser blocks?
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I use a Winberley P-10 Acra-Swiss type plate to give a larger surface area when on a tripod. It has anti-swivel tabes as most plates have. It also accepts Kirkphotos older macro flash arms.
I made block for using a PN-11 with my fat 105/4.0 AI Micro-Nikkor. Here is a photo...
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/662/21650205452_55d6e5e19b_n.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/662/21650205452_55d6e5e19b_b.jpg)
Please click image for a larger view.
Hope this helps,
Dave
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Some nice metalwork here David on your riser blocks. I also have a fat 105/4.0 Micro-Nikkor (AiS in my case).
The PN-11 has but a single 1/4" threaded tripod mounting hole. Did you put in any extra threaded holes or holes on the mounting base of the PN-11 to locate dowelling to curb any tendency for the PN-11 to rotate off axis when mounted to your riser blocks?
Thank you for the kind words. I use a thin gasket material to mate the PN-11 to the aluminum blocks. The blocks are made from 6061-T6 aircraft aluminum like the products from Really Right Stuff, Wimberley and Kirkphoto A.K.A. Kirk Enterprises Solutions.
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My last post had some really poor writing with the usual typos near the end. Here is a second try... :-[
The foot print of the PN-11 is close to 25mm square (1 inch) so if mounted on a tripod head with a compliant surface like rubber or cork it will be unstable and vibrations can reduce image resolution. If the PN-11 is mounted on a hard surface such as an Arca-Swiss lens plate the mating is firm and problems with vibrations degrading the photograph are greatly reduced. This assumes a quality tripod head and tripod which is another discussion.
I use Wimberley lens plates. If the PN-11 is mounted directly on a Wimberley P-10 plate, that plate has anti-swivel tabs. For mounting on a hard surface without tabs I use an automotive gasket material I get from Pep Boys auto supplies and service store in the US. It's available in 1/32 or 1/16 inch (about 0.8 or 1.6 millimeters) thick. I think it may be rubberized but I don't have a new package to check. Anyway it sticks two hard surfaces together and resists swiveling very well. I'm probably using the 1/32” (0.8mm) gasket material with the PN-11 and aluminum blocks in the photo I posted earlier. I also use this gasket material on my Sinar 2-way pan-tilt head liberated from an 8x10" Sinar view camera to mate it with a Wimberley C-30 Quick Release Clamp. I use the Wimberley C-30 Quick Release Clamp as a poor man's macro slider.
Dave
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Thanks David - the gasket material is a neat & simple solution to the swiveling issue.
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An extra screw is even simpler ... needn't enter the PN-11 foot per se as long as it bites into its front- or rear flange.
I'm pretty allergic to anything that prevents metal to metal contact.
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Hello All
. This has been a excellent thread and a great tutorial for me.
. Thank you again for the time taken to supply great instructions.
. I feel this will be a go to reference for the future, for all who express
. a interest in macro via the lens combinations discussed.
.
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UPDATE !
I received a PN - 11 delivered from Hong Kong on Thursday last week and had a Sunday afternoon with it attached to a 135mm f2.8
Monday morning whilst commuting to work I responded to a regularly used auction site listing item and as a result today at Saville Row in
London, picked up a very nice condition, a little internal dust, Micro Nikkor 105mm f2.8. Serial Number 243***.
The ship has left the port, Bon Voyage.
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Show us some results, congrats :)
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An extra screw is even simpler ... needn't enter the PN-11 foot per se as long as it bites into its front- or rear flange.
I'm pretty allergic to anything that prevents metal to metal contact.
The better solution for me would be a 105/4.0 AIS Micro which is slimmer than the AI. Then I would not need the aluminum spacers. Still the gasket is only 0.8mm thick, fairly hard and under compression in use. I haven't notice a problem as yet.
I also need the aluminum spacer for use with a 300/4.5 ED-IF AI and 400/5.6 ED AI. I have another PN-11 I use directly on lens plates.
Dave
I'm not greedy I want another PN-11 for use without a plate.
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this is very timely as i am in the market for a macro lens and a PN-11 :o :o :o
http://www.throughthefmount.com/articles_back_tc.html
this site is very useful for macro and the PN is mentioned there briefly.
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Another vote for an A-S plate for the foot of PN-11. RRS 5A plate is the best. The plate is discontinued but well worth looking for.
i looked for 18 months... but finally found one! Well worth the wait
Art
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The Arca Swiss and Really Right Stuff base plates are elusive, two searches whilst commuting have shown no results.
Apologies for failing to resize the two example images.
The Sirui Ball Head has a base plate with two little red tabs that are recessed into the plate, I was looking at these today whilst taking a few measurements to see how the base plate holder would work with another product. I then discovered these were not decorations but hinged.
Eureka, the images will be the best explanation. I do not intend on this as a permanent accessory to overcome the PN - 11 rotation issue,
but it does do what you assume it should, quite well. I applied a little Buffoon treatment.
Today I attempted the provisional investigation of a mould removal exercise on my 85mm f1.4. I abandoned the task knowing I needed more tools and re visited Richards Web pages to identify the tools required.
I have saved a particular Web Site that offers accessories for photography and knew they offered Lens removal tools, as well as articulated arms for flash mounting, a device I intend to use when doing Macro with a SB 800.
The Company that produces these various items is called MENG, they have a ebay page.
What I discovered whilst scrolling through to find and assess their lens removal tools was a variety of base plates and sliding rails that look like they would do a very reliable job with the PN - 11 and a macro set up.
I believe the TY - C10 Quick Release Plate with a raised edge will lock the PN -11 in place and one the slightly longer plates attached underneath the TY - C10 will make a mount very similar to the one in the image offered by David.
There are other longer base plates with a raised edges, as well as incremented sliding rails.
I think these raised edge base plates may be a suitable solution for many, as well as for somebody who is patiently waiting for a option to purchase a rare branded base plate.
It may be a help if somebody with a PN - 11/ macro experience could take a look at a few items from MENG and offer their thoughts on their usability.
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My previous post had rejected my images due to file size.
These are the two images referred to in the post before this one.
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The RRS 5 plate has a slight curve in the heel which matches the shape of the PN-11 tripod foot, ensuring a good fit. However, any short plate with an upright heel would be almost as good, such as the RRS B6 or B82 plate.
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John G, Manfrotto make an Arca Swiss compatible plate!
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Thank you mike.
Burning a lot of mental energy preparing for the macro work, up the road to yourself in Suffolk.