NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Michael Erlewine on February 04, 2016, 18:31:01

Title: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Michael Erlewine on February 04, 2016, 18:31:01
You have no one but yourselves to blame for inspiring me to consider the Noct Nikkor for the kind of close-up work I do. As luck would have it I picked up a mint version of this lens on Ebay for $2758, which is not bad for this lens, especially the condition. I am selling off one of my PC Nikkors (85mm) and my Zeiss 100mm Makro-Planar, which I never use.

Well, it arrived and I have only begun to work with it. Heavy little bugger, and so well-made. Anyway, what I wanted to see in this lens seems to be there, the idea of a fast, wide-up lens with which to paint focus. Here are a couple of images (my first) with the Noct and the D810.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 04, 2016, 18:43:48
magical smooth transitions. Very intersting. Like to see more.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Andy on February 04, 2016, 19:05:47
Michael,
congratulations to your newst lens addition!

I am sure you will find the Noct a very pleasing lens to work with. Looking at your first images, you seem to enjoy it already 😃

rgds,
Andy
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: KarlMera on February 04, 2016, 21:00:47
The poor man´s noct is the 1,2/55mm nikkor which gives you the same results.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: stenrasmussen on February 04, 2016, 22:03:59
The poor man´s noct is the 1,2/55mm nikkor which gives you the same results.

I disagree.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Michael Erlewine on February 04, 2016, 22:20:00
I can already see that I have a lot to learn about the Noct Nikkor. It is definitely a lens with real character and probably many faces and uses. One limitation for my work is the focus throw, which is something like 140 degrees. This very much limits the number of layers for focus stacking. The increments are not fine enough just turning the helicoid. I will have to mount it on a focus rail to do large stacks, which is not the preferred way to stack.

Here is a 140 layer stack done on a focus rail with the Nikon D810 and the Noct, just for interest’s sake.

I have a lot to do and I wish spring would come sooner.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Erik Lund on February 04, 2016, 22:26:26
The Noct you got is the Ais - The old  Ai has a lot more focus throw, it has about 230 deg since the mechanics are totally different, longer helicoils a bit stronger old fashion design stronger,,,

I agree with Sten, the other 50, 55 and 58mm Ai and Ais lenses doesn't come close to the Noct-Nikkor - The New 58mm 1.4 G does,,,
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on February 04, 2016, 22:30:15
Pushing any lens into assignments for which it never was designed is always a risky undertaking. Sometimes it works, even surprisingly well so; at other times, the lens fails to deliver.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Michael Erlewine on February 04, 2016, 22:34:27
Pushing any lens into assignments for which it never was designed is always a risky undertaking. Sometimes it works, even surprisingly well so; at other times, the lens fails to deliver.

Very true. I like to push the boundaries, but as you said, the results are not always what we hope for. The Noct is a very interesting lens, at least so far.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Erik Lund on February 04, 2016, 22:34:46
To me it looks like stacking ruins the Karma of the lens,,,

First two images starts to bring out some of the potential,,, Bokeh ;)
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Michael Erlewine on February 04, 2016, 22:40:27
To me it looks like stacking ruins the Karma of the lens,,,

First two images starts to bring out some of the potential,,, Bokeh ;)

Yep. I agree. This is how we find out. Looks like this will be a one-shot or a one-shot with a couple layers stacked to bring out a point. That's fine. Very nice lens.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 05, 2016, 00:06:12
Your multifocus work with only a few but quite distant points of interest in the frame might profit from
the special drawing style.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Michael Erlewine on February 05, 2016, 00:11:51
Your multifocus work with only a few but quite distant points of interest in the frame might profit from
the special drawing style.

It is clear to me that the Noct requires some special consideration. The first couple of shots show an approach that works. The multi-layer stacked image is not the way to go, but this is how we find out, right?

I am interested in learning to use the Noct, finding my own way to make it useful.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: richardHaw on February 05, 2016, 04:39:07
currently saving up for a NOCT to do something similar for larger bugs :o :o :o
focusing might be a pain but it is expected.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: pluton on February 05, 2016, 04:52:28
The poor man´s noct is the 1,2/55mm nikkor which gives you the same results.
  Based on what I've seen here and elsewhere shot with the Noct, the 55/1.2K that I have would be a very poor man's substitute for the Noct.
I got the 55/1.2K for the defects in the imaging it creates when wide open.
Photo showing strong soft effects coming entirely from the 55/1.2K lens wide open and focused close:
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: richardHaw on February 05, 2016, 06:58:06
i currently shoot with the 55mm f/1.2, in fact that is the lens that i have right now on my daily camera.  :o :o :o

i also refer it as the poor man's NOCT but the 55 is nowhere near the NOCT wide open in the center. it does produce rather charming photos wide open by the way and many times i would grab it over the 50mm f/1.2 which seems to be really well corrected wide open (my 50mm f/1.2 is back at nikon for calibration).

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5711/23597892259_93788b23b4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/BXgnen)HAW_3598 (https://flic.kr/p/BXgnen) by mrBabaero (https://www.flickr.com/photos/31768064@N03/), on Flickr
the 55's poorly corrected CA wide open is used to great effect for smoothing wrinkles and make the skin "glow" in the highlights.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/574/23870797826_1891250172_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Cno5xL)HAW_2981 (https://flic.kr/p/Cno5xL) by mrBabaero (https://www.flickr.com/photos/31768064@N03/), on Flickr
the 55 also has the tendency to create busy bokeh balls on foliage (i judge bokeh by how well it renders foliage in the BG).

still waiting for a NOCT to appear again in the junk shops here. there was one 2 months ago and i regret that i skipped it even though i can clean whatever was inside there in the first place...

PS: lastly, the 55 has a notch in the rear element for mechanical purposes. this will case the bokeh balls to have a notch as well... in short, your bokeh balls will not be perfectly circular (or evenly lemon-shaped on the corners of the image)
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Erik Lund on February 05, 2016, 07:11:55
............
PS: lastly, the 55 has a notch in the rear element for mechanical purposes. this will case the bokeh balls to have a notch as well... in short, your bokeh balls will not be perfectly circular (or evenly lemon-shaped on the corners of the image)

That is why the rear element is painted with black masking paint, forming a circle to remove the notch in the oof blur circles.

I have seen this paint worn off on some lenses, by excessive cleaning /use...

BTW posting dog photos with other lenses in this thread is like,,, not so nice  :o
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Dr Klaus Schmitt on February 05, 2016, 08:46:08
It is clear to me that the Noct requires some special consideration. The first couple of shots show an approach that works. The multi-layer stacked image is not the way to go, but this is how we find out, right?

I am interested in learning to use the Noct, finding my own way to make it useful.

Wishing you the best of success Michael, with that new challenge!! Looks like there will be some ineresting results coming...
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: KarlMera on February 05, 2016, 11:28:33
I disagree.

Why? For macro I do not see any difference.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Akira on February 05, 2016, 14:41:49
The Noct you got is the Ais - The old  Ai has a lot more focus throw, it has about 230 deg since the mechanics are totally different, longer helicoils a bit stronger old fashion design stronger,,,

The Ai version has only seven aperture blades, which can affect the OOF rendition unless it is wide open...
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Akira on February 05, 2016, 14:44:44
Michael, did you see anything better with the Noct than with Nikkor-O 55/1.2, except for the difference in the handling (with or without the focus ring)?
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Erik Lund on February 05, 2016, 14:47:41
The Ai version has only seven aperture blades, which can affect the OOF rendition unless it is wide open...
Yes it has but they are actually slightly rounded - so at f/2-2.5 they are actually more round than the 9 straight blades of the Ais! ;)
Also you know Michael is a straight open kind of guy,,, ;)
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Akira on February 05, 2016, 14:52:21
Yes it has but they are actually slightly rounded - so at f/2-2.5 they are actually more round than the 9 straight blades of the Ais! ;)
Also you know Michael is a straight open kind of guy,,, ;)

Erik, thanks for the info on the secven-blade version.  But Michael "sometimes" tries to stop down a lens, if I understand correctly.  ;)
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Michael Erlewine on February 05, 2016, 14:57:18
Erik, thanks for the info on the secven-blade version.  But Michael "sometimes" tries to stop down a lens, if I understand correctly.  ;)

I have the 9-blade version and I seldom stop down for stacking. I stack wide open, provided the lens is sharp and fast wide open..
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: JJChan on February 05, 2016, 16:19:28
Hi Michael
Congrats on new lens and unique pictures that still speak your vision.
It really has a complex character- the large field curvature at short medium distances which flattens towards infinity, the apo like crispness at f5.6-f8, the high micro contrasts when light is behind or to the side, the beautiful bokeh particularly within the inner 3/4 circle - it has so many nuances. I haven't the skills to exploit half of the character of this lense... it's a keeper for me.

I'm really looking forward to seeing your endeavors with this special glass

JJ
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: pluton on February 05, 2016, 17:37:28

BTW posting dog photos with other lenses in this thread is like,,, not so nice  :o
Shall I delete it?  There is still time...
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Tom Gresham on February 05, 2016, 18:33:14
Michael,

How would you compare the Noct with the 55mm Otus?
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Michael Erlewine on February 05, 2016, 18:52:55
Michael,

How would you compare the Noct with the 55mm Otus?


I don’t think of them in terms of comparison. The Noct Nikkor is a specialty lens, while the Zeiss Otus 55mm is an all-around useful lens… for me anyway, in the work I do.

The Noct, so far in my use, is very, very delicate. It is fussy about focus and compares in my mind more with the CRT Nikkor or the El Nikkor APO 105mm.

The Noct is not that well corrected and artifacts definitely are easy to come by. I am only using it close-up and midrange, and so far it has told me that I am going to have to learn how to use it. Large stacks don’t do well, however a single-shot with the lens, with a couple of stacked layers to bring out a focus area or two works great. Again, the word “delicate” comes to mind, at least as to what’s required of me.

I can say that this is a unique lens. I have no other lens that demands I proceed so very carefully and with as light a touch. This means that once I figure out how I want to use it, I probably will want to have it with me, along with the various Zeiss Otus-type lenses that I like very much.

So, the Noct is classed with the CRT-Nikkor, the El Nikor APO 105, the Printing Nikkors, and some of the Painterly Lens that I am exploring. However, I am very impressed, so far. I am glad I sprung for it, even though it meant selling off lenses that I like but seldom use.

It is mid-winter here, so I have few things natural to photograph, but here is another shot with the Noct and the D810 that I just took.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Michael Erlewine on February 05, 2016, 20:41:58
I am starting to get more of a handle on the Noct. Here is another shot of some Cyclamen flowers. This time, I have a single shot, with then a couple of layers of finer focus in two parts of the image. It starts to look like something. There is no doubt that, at least for me, this is a very impressionistic lens, with a lot of emotional wallop.
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Nick Scavone on February 06, 2016, 02:47:18
Michael,

These are all great photos. The second photo above is stunning. If you ever tire of the Noct, drop me a PM. I'd gladly make the drive across the state to pick it up from you.

Cheers,

Nick
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Michael Erlewine on February 06, 2016, 02:53:09
Michael,

These are all great photos. The second photo above is stunning. If you ever tire of the Noct, drop me a PM. I'd gladly make the drive across the state to pick it up from you.

Cheers,

Nick

I'm anything but tired of the Noct. There are a great many Noct Nikkors for sale on Ebay at any time. Many. If you want one, I suggest you get one, but remember: This is not your only lens, but a special lens for special work, IMO.


Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Dr Klaus Schmitt on February 06, 2016, 18:26:14
I am starting to get more of a handle on the Noct. Here is another shot of some Cyclamen flowers. This time, I have a single shot, with then a couple of layers of finer focus in two parts of the image. It starts to look like something. There is no doubt that, at least for me, this is a very impressionistic lens, with a lot of emotional wallop.

That Cyclamen is awesome Michael!
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Frank Fremerey on February 06, 2016, 19:50:56
adorable lighting and focus painting in the last one. WOW!
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Nick Scavone on February 07, 2016, 01:50:13
Michael,

I would be interested to see your setup for these photos which I assume were taken indoors. What backgrounds, lighting (if any), etc. if you don't mind sharing.

Nick
Title: Re: Noct Nikkor for Close-up
Post by: Michael Erlewine on February 07, 2016, 02:00:27
Michael,

I would be interested to see your setup for these photos which I assume were taken indoors. What backgrounds, lighting (if any), etc. if you don't mind sharing.

Nick

Not much to see. The Noct mounted on the Nikon D810, on an Arca Cube 1 geared head, on a RRS Version 3 tripod. Light from the window, sometimes helped with a small LED bank. That's it. Background was some black velvet.