Author Topic: DXOMark tests Nikkor 400/2.8 FL VR  (Read 8050 times)

Erik Lund

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Re: DXOMark tests Nikkor 400/2.8 FL VR
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2015, 13:40:56 »
Thanks for elaborating on this Lance, it's more clear now!

Then the old rule of thumb still stands, a lens without TC is preferred - For distant shots - we then add ;)
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: DXOMark tests Nikkor 400/2.8 FL VR
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2015, 14:32:06 »
It's a computer running a long series of tests directly on the lens while it's is actually focusing and hitting an/or missing target, storing the information in the lens CPU! There is no Perhaps in that sentence.

I haven't seen all the service centres and what equipment they use, hence "perhaps." I also haven't seen all their worldwide service people at work to see what their personal standards and work ethics are. There is no way I could know without going there and seeing (and even if I had done that my observations would be suspect to human observation error).

Quote
Nikon calibrate the body completely independent from the lens and vice versa.

Such a procedure would not account for body+lens cross effects, which are the main reason focus fine tuning is needed (as far as I'm concerned). If Nikon calibrates bodies and lenses independently at factory (which they should, of course) then there would be no benefit from repeating that kind of calibration afterwards, unless the equipment is damaged. However, calibrating body and lens independently is not sufficient for accurate focusing (of wide aperture lenses in particular) and calibrating the particular body and the particular lens together is needed.   With the D800, I had standard deviation of 9 points on the focus fine tuning scale from lens to lens (after AF calibration of the body at JAS tekniikka). They told me to come back with the lenses if there are still problems, but as I said my lenses are in use. With the D3X the std was only 5 points. This illustrates that lens to lens variations in optimal fine tune depend on the particular body and are not something that can be dealt with independent calibration of bodies and lenses. The D810 however is closer to the D3X in variation from lens to lens requirement for fine tuning (interestingly, it shows less color temperture dependent focus shift but more zoom focal length dependent focus error).

I disagree with Nikon's policy regarding some aspects. For example they don't calibrate f/1.4 lenses wide open, whereas I would only want the wide open image to be considered for calibration. Now, it is well known that focus calibration wide open is problematic and introduces a host of issues but since I would use the lens wide open 95% of the time this is what I require.

Anyway, no amount of calibration will completely get rid of focusing errors, as there is quite a bit of shot to shot random variation in DSLR autofocus. This is easy to demonstrate with a tripod and stationary subject; not all shots will be focused alike even with an easy target. These random errors tend to be more significant at long distances (Nikon even notes in the manual if I recall correctly that autofocus may be inaccurate at long distances, which is an understatement) - I suppose it is a question of speed vs. precision tradeoff - to be able to rack the lens quickly from infinity to nearest distance, the focusing cannot be infinitely precise at all distance ranges and with increasing pixel densities there is more pressure to gear lenses to allow more precise focusing with some cost in speed (as is inevitable). Which is one of the reasons I am not so hot on high pixel density cameras since the AF hasn't kept up with the development of sensors and so there is a lot of waste. But since Nikon only makes their best camera (for my requirements) with a high density sensor I don't have much choice.

Getting back to the long lenses, the random variations in focus especially in low light tend to increase as the aperture is closed from f/4 to f/5.6 and using a TC magnifies the image and any focus error that might exist. So for use with e.g. 2X TC, the lens's focusing system would need to be redesigned to allow finer adjustment to get optimal results. This is very obvious with the 200/2 specifically at long distances and 2X (even though the lens is f/4 with the TC) - there is not sufficient precision to get consistent results with that TC in the long distances (50m+). Perhaps it would be nice if Nikon would make it possible for the lens motor to run at half speed (or quarter speed) when used with a TC to account for the shallower depth of field and consequent requirements.

I would not be surprised if the FL series (and other new lenses introduced in the 36MP+ era) have been designed to autofocus more precisely to account for the increasing demands by people who inspect the image at the pixel level instead of just making practical sized prints (I think we all do some pixel level evaluation to determine which shot has best focus).

Anyway, so long distance performance can depend on:
1 lens MTF itself (and lens+TC combined MTF) - due to atmospheric effects the image quality can fall perceptably but it's better to start with a sharp lens allowing the user to slightly shift the point where the combined lens MTF + atmospheric degradation become perceptible in the final image
2 precision of the AF (i.e. how fine adjustments to focus can the camera control on a particular lens in the long distance range; a TC degrades the precision because of light loss as well as by decreasing DOF)
3 AF calibration of body and lens (i.e. how much systematic bias there is in focus i.e. back or front focus)
4 light level (contributing to 2 precision of the AF in particular)

and probably some other factors that I'm not just thinking of now.

Erik Lund

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Re: DXOMark tests Nikkor 400/2.8 FL VR
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2015, 14:57:12 »
There is no human factor or error involved in the service procedure identical to the factory calibration. Done when they open the lens up mount on off or similar...

You hook the lens up to a sensor and a computer does the rest. Fool proof.

Sorry, you use too many words for me to respond to each part now.

I belive you worry too much about what might be an issue.

Eddit to add, the system and procedure is in their repari manuals.
Erik Lund

Erik Lund

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Re: DXOMark tests Nikkor 400/2.8 FL VR
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2015, 15:25:58 »
Here is a link to a similar repair manual, details about calibrating the lens starts page L-45
http://allphotolenses.com/public/files/pdfs/72bacb0b30e2ffd0c0fdbed1ba93ee57.pdf
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: DXOMark tests Nikkor 400/2.8 FL VR
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2015, 19:56:03 »
I fail to see what new information a lens calibration system (used independently of the camera which the user is to use it with) could obtain of the lens that was not available at the factory. So there should be no change in the lens' behavior if it was properly manufactured and calibrated in the first place. If Nikon later changes the process of lens calibration, they should send notice to registered users so that they can have the lens adjusted by the improved calibration process. This is what car manufacturers typically do, for example.

The more important and serious effects that we see as users are calibration errors that are not due to the lens or the camera but the combination of the two. It is easy to demonstrate that the optimal AF fine tune is not a sum of body adjustment and lens adjustment plus TC adjustment (you can certainly adjust it with such an approximation but it will not yield a completely satisfactory result) but there are cross terms as well.

simsurace

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Re: DXOMark tests Nikkor 400/2.8 FL VR
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2015, 22:52:26 »
I wish Nikon were more transparent with regards to service procedures and actually work with the customer to find a solution with which the customer is happy.

I have, on occasion, brought both body and lens to Nikon service Switzerland for calibration. This involves a 4 h return trip for me or shipping by mail, so not something I can do "over lunch". You tell them your problems and then it takes one or two weeks after which you might get the gear back with a small note "everything within spec", meaning the problem was not acknowledged nor solved. If you ask for further information you are told to send the gear in once again. There is a complete lack of interactivity to this whole process which is quite unnerving. When I bring a car or bicycle for repair I can chat with the mechanic directly which saves a lot of time for both. I wish the same were possible with cameras.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Erik Lund

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Re: DXOMark tests Nikkor 400/2.8 FL VR
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2015, 22:52:42 »
There is no difference between the factory and the service center... never said otherwise. Out of the box it should work...

So it's down to wear/use/damage...
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Lance B

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Re: DXOMark tests Nikkor 400/2.8 FL VR
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2015, 01:36:01 »
I fail to see what new information a lens calibration system (used independently of the camera which the user is to use it with) could obtain of the lens that was not available at the factory. So there should be no change in the lens' behavior if it was properly manufactured and calibrated in the first place. If Nikon later changes the process of lens calibration, they should send notice to registered users so that they can have the lens adjusted by the improved calibration process. This is what car manufacturers typically do, for example.

The more important and serious effects that we see as users are calibration errors that are not due to the lens or the camera but the combination of the two. It is easy to demonstrate that the optimal AF fine tune is not a sum of body adjustment and lens adjustment plus TC adjustment (you can certainly adjust it with such an approximation but it will not yield a completely satisfactory result) but there are cross terms as well.

Lenses and cameras from the factory have a tolerance. If the tolerance of the camera and lens combo are both additive or both subtractive, then you will end up with an AF Fine tune error either back or front focus. This is a fact and the very reason why AF Fine tune is offered in all higher end DSLR's these days because of tolerances when manufactured. Having spoken to the Nikon service manager at Nikon, this is a fact. The fact that lenses have a tolerance doesn't mean that it won't focus correctly on the camera and thus may look fine to the owner of that lens and camera combo. I mean, why else would they provide AF Fine tune unless one or both components may be out of adjustment? If everything was spot on from factory, there would be no need for AF Fine tune.

As I stated in my posts and having spoken to the Nikon service manager, Nikon first get the camera AF calibrated to known reference lens so that the camera can be considered correct so that when they adjust a lens to suit that lens will more than likely suit a future camera that lens is attached to, unless that future camera is out of adjustment. They then adjust the lens's focus so that it is correct, but this adjustment is done in lens, not on the cameras AF Fine tune, therefore, when you get the camera and lens back it, the AF Fine tune will read zero but will now focus correctly.

Having had my lenses and camera calibrated by Nikon, the system works perfectly.

Erik Lund

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Re: DXOMark tests Nikkor 400/2.8 FL VR
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2015, 09:24:09 »
This is the same experience I have Lance.

The situation with camera in one direction and the lens in another, to sum up the fault is very unlikely, although it of cause in theory can happen...

AF fine tune is a nice feature if you borrow a faulty lens that is off to get a job done for instance, but basically it should not be used IMHO your findings may wary!  ;)
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Lance B

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Re: DXOMark tests Nikkor 400/2.8 FL VR
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2015, 10:17:12 »
Having played with many, many Nikon lenses and more importantly, many, many long Nikon lenses, not only my own but those of friends as well, I have a lot of experience on how AF Fine tune works with these lenses. Not only that, I have also discussed it with the Nikon service techs extensively. Friends and I all talk and discuss these long lenses and how they work both bare and with TC's. Not only that, but it has been a topic of conversation on other forums as well so, I can assure you that I and others agree that the previous Nikon long super tele lenses can have a bit of a slight IQ drop off at distance. It is not huge, but it is a slight drop off and can be noticable. It has nothing to do with incorrect AF Fine tuning as we can all see where the perfect focus is when testing these lenses, no matter what the distance is. It has nothing to do with atmospheric conditions either because that would also affect my new 400 f2.8E when using TC's as well, but it doesn't. It also has nothing to do with how we support these lenses as it would also affect the 400 + TC's, but it doesn't. A case in point. If I use my 500 f4 VR + 1.4x TCII @ 700mm or my 300 f2.8 VRII + 2x TCIII @ 600mm and compare it against the new 400 f2.8E FL + 2x TCIII @ 800mm, I can assure you that the 400 looks basically just as good close in as it does at distance. The same cannot be said for the 300 and 500 with the afore mentioned TC's attached. What I will say is that the new 1.4x TCIII is better than the old 1.4x TCII on the 500 f4 VR at distance, partly confirming my thinking that Nikon is addressing this slight issue.

Erik Lund

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Re: DXOMark tests Nikkor 400/2.8 FL VR
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2015, 10:32:22 »
Thanks for sharing your findings! Both Ilkka, Lace et al I really appriciate you input!

I'm definetly not a 'distance shooter' I prefer to 'Get closer' ;)

Bjørn has loads of experience with long glass but I know he rarely shoot with TC's
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