Vibration Isolation for Tripods

[charlie]

Can you remove yourself from the equation?
If you're shooting tethered you can trigger the camera remotely but can the camera movements for stacking be automated?

Another option is that you could use strobes that have extremely fast flash duration which can have the effect of upwards of a 1/80,000 of a second shutter speed, depending on the lights you're using of course. At these speeds even if you're flowers are falling through the frame they will come out tack sharp.

[chambeshi]

Concur on placing each tripod foot in a bucket of sand, or into a bucket filled with packing foam chips that compress to ensure stability. Hanging a weight under the tripod between the legs should help - a backpack full of gear is a standard aid for landscape work

[Les Olson]

Damping vibrations and isolating the equipment from vibrations require quite different properties. 

Damping vibrations requires heavy, stiff equipment, with the components tightly coupled, but that enhances transmission. To isolate yourself from vibrations you need an interface between materials of widely differing acoustic impedance, because sound is reflected from interfaces where acoustic impedance changes.  Acoustic impedance is the product of a material's density and the speed of sound in it.  Carbon fibre has a high speed of sound so you want something between your tripod and the floor that has a very low speed of sound.

Heavy rubber might do the job (it needs to be heavy because it is the long heavy chains with sulphur atoms that resist being moved back and forth that makes the speed of sound slow) or you could buy some more expensive but somewhat more effective Sorbothane vibration isolating pads made for telescopes.

[Seapy]

The cure depends on the root cause.  No good treating the symptoms.

The root cause is the flexibility in the relationship between the subject and the camera.

Any cure has to link the two, solidly.

My own solution is I have my solid old enlarger bolted to the wall, a brick outer wall of the house, as a copy stand, the camera is mounted on the column which is also braced to the wall.  I never have a problem with that, but I don't stack - yet...  After reading your writings, that may change.    You could think 'out of the box' and mount an old heavy enlarger stand on your wall with the base bolted to the wall and a shelf screwed to the base to sit the flowers on?

You mention a carbon fibre tripod, in my opinion not an ideal choice, heavy steel better because it damps vibrations, more mass is good when it comes to vibrations.  Placing a very heavy steel plate on top of the tripod MAY reduce vibrations but not if the tripod is actually moving up and down, or one leg is.  I have read that some star gazing tripods are made of heavy two inch tube, that may help but again not much, if the floor is moving up and down.

A thought is to attach a fine pen laser to the camera, pointing at the subject, that would let you see the movements, and perhaps provoke them to see where the issue lies.  Are the legs of the tripod located above the floor joists (beams?) or in between?  The location of the joists can be determined by rubbing a strong magnet (from a dead hard drive?) around on the carpet, it will pick up on the nails or screws securing the floor boards, as you probably know joists are usually at 16 inch centres, least they are in UK.  Might be better if the tripod legs are solidly located exactly on the joists, rather than on the unsupported boards.  Also, if the floor is carpeted, that would allow flexibility, I would drive 3 good #3 Pozidrive screw through the carpet, into the joists, flush with the top of the carpet so they are not a tripping hazard.  You could locate the spikes of the tripod in the sockets provided by the screws and achieve a very solid, repeatable, location for the tripod, provided the joists are not flexing of course.

Think X-Ray room in hospital or dentists? The camera is usually mounted either on the wall or suspended from the ceiling.

One simple solution would be to place two six or eight foot planks where you stand, which are supported at each end on bearers to prevent you transmitting vibes into the floor where the tripod is located.  Not elegant but should work in the short term.  May allow you to complete this task and retain your hair!

I have some 60mm (two and a half inch) thick sheets of chipboard, they are very heavy and solid.  Might it be possible to place one on the studio floor where you do your stacking, that should prevent the floor flexing.

I am a retired builder so I pretty well understand buildings,  they do vibrate, even with concrete upper floors.  Concrete ground floors, provided they aren't suspended, are usually solid enough.

Also think video 'steady cam' some of them work by  having a heavy weight suspended below the camera in a rigid frame.

Just a few rambling and well intentioned thoughts which may help.    Somewhere among them may be your solution, good luck.

[David H. Hartman]

A thought is to attach a fine pen laser to the camera, pointing at the subject, that would let you see the movements, and perhaps provoke them to see where the issue lies.

The use of a laser pointer works very well. I tested several of my tripods and cameras by attaching a pointer to my 200/4.0 AI Micro-Nikkor. I pointed the laser at a dark target, tripped the shutter remotely on "B" and observed how much the laser spot danced. The distance from camera to target was about 7.5m (25 feet). In this way I could see the vibrations caused by the mirror going up and the shutter opening or with mirror lockup just the shutter opening vibrations.

Dave

I found my Nikon F2As and FE2/FM2n(s) were not nearly as well dampened as my Nikon F3 and later single digit Nikon film cameras. I think I test an F5 and D2H.

[arthurking83]

I used to have similar problems with my back room when doing macro.
The floor in this back room was very weak, and I could induce vibrations from another room.
Obvious easy solution as already said is to remove yourself from the equation all together, which was my only option too after a few attempts to sort it out for myself.

I tried doing the shorter tripod leg thing too, it may have helped a little, but didn't eliminate the problem.
I also hung heavy equipment off the tripod in an effort to 'stabilise it' and that helped more than the shorter tripod legs solution.
I have a Gitzo CF tripod.

I was going to try to use Bjørn's comment about mounting the camera/subject on the same platform(basically a solidified desk) so that they vibrate in unison too ... just never got around to it.

I'm assuming that the floor of the room you work in is made of timber?
Concreting it will be hard, but a good quality tiling product could help.
If the floor is timber, then tiling it would(or should) involve the addition of tiles to an impervious substrate over the timber floor(common product to use would be cement sheeting)
So the waterproof substrate becomes another layer over the timber floor, and the tiles are then glued to that.
Thicker tiles are going to be better at rigidity than thinner tiles.
What all this does, is turn a 10-15mm timber floor surface into a 25-30mm timber/cement sheet/tile structure which will be far more rigid than the original timber only flooring.
No need for concreting.

I highly doubt that any attempt to isolate your self(or movements) will have any effect in terms of vibration elimination as no matter how much rubber(or other products) you try to use, you still have to account for your weight acting on the floor.
It's this that is almost certainly the issue, rather than the shock of your weight causing vibration.
Your weight flexes each timber plank in the floor  between each bearer ..  as well as the bearers themselves.
 
Other options would be to place more load bearing supports under the floor bearers at closer spacings to solidify the floor structure.
Or like Seapy commented, create for yourself a suspended footing for you to move around on.

My solution was a lot more simple. Just remove myself from the equation(ie. the room), use a capable wireless remote(workable up to 50m away). This gave me the option to shoot from two rooms away, using mirror-lockup listening for the click sounds as my cue to the next step(with a delay between mirror up and exposure).

[Martin Kellermann]

There are good reasons why high accuracy metrology laboratories mount all their high precision measuring equipment on heavy granite tables in order to get rid of vibrations. Frequently these granite slabs have vibration reducing mechanisms built underneath them. Now, getting a 100mm thick granite slab that is 1m x 2m large may be a bit of challenge, cost and weight will be quite something - you will need a crane to install it. But I wonder whether the table top granite slabs used in kitchens would not help. They are about 25 to 30mm thick, you can get them in up to 3m long lengths about a meter wide. And they should be readily available from building material stores. I agree you need to get the object and the camera connected on the same slab to minimize vibrations. Maybe some absorbing rubber material underneath will also be helpful. Martin

[Peter Connan]

Just wondering how long your working distance is?

If not too long, would it be possbly to mount a metal plate/bracket on the tripod, large enough to mount both the camera and the target? Say 250mm wide, 30mm thick slab of Aluminium, of a suitable length (maybe 1m or so)? With the tripod then standing in buckets of sand, themselves standing on closed-cell foam pads?

Just as an aside, regarding not using the lower leg sections of the tripod, I have long wondered which would be more stable: retracting the lower sections all the way, or retracting the upper legs 1/3rd of their length and the lower legs 2/3rd of theirs?

[David H. Hartman]

My advice with fairly decent Bogen 3132 (I may have to correct the model No.) not using the lower legs and spreading the legs wide really helps. The lower legs on my mediun-light Bogen and Tiltall are too flexable. Much care needs to be used with lenses longer than 135-150mm if the lower legs are used.

If there is a smart breeze not using the lower legs and spreading them helps with a heavy video tripod. Lower means catching less wind and wide is more stable.

I recommended concrete in a frame above as it's heavy and stiff. I know it has some real drawbacks and removing it latter would be hell.

I think I read about 2.5" slabs of chip board. If 4x8' is long enough and if on the first floor these could be brought in with a piano dolly. I'd try one and maybe two with something underneath to absorb vibrations. I'd screw two boards togtherwith construction screwsif using two. I would want several people to steady it while bringing the board in and lowering it/them in place.

The wafer board would be cheaper than granet and a lot less messy than concrete. With a material to reduce the transmission of vibration under it the wafer board gets my vote.

[rosko]

Hi, michael !

Here is what I will do when I am ready to do long focus stackings :

1/ Using a slab of polished marble or granite (more even than concrete and no dusty) resting on layers of different soft materials (in order to absorb/brake any waves from the floor; for example : one layer of neoprene first, then one layer of medium/high density polystyrene, then one layer of rubber and the slab on top. the softest material must be on the floor first to make sure it'd ''mould'' any asperities of your floor. Each layer, with different texture would create interference among waves, cancelling most of them.

2/ Put the subject and gear on the same slab. bolt the stacking system directly on the slab (no tripod) or anything with joint. If you don't want to work at the floor level, you can put the slab/ absorbing layers on a very sturdy bench (minimum 12x12 cm legs). Hard wood is best.

This is what I will do. I plan to put it in the kitchen as is the only room tiled on concrete floor. If I had a laboratory, I would build a concrete slab on blocs and tile it.

Cheers, Francis.

[ColinM]

I am not walking on the floor, but just standing there... and not moving. It's that subtle.

Maybe time for some pranayama Michael!

[Seapy]

Michael,  In trying to find photographs of your setup trying to better understand this issue I came across this image.

I have circled the semicircular tripod head in red, please can you (or somebody?) tell me a little about this head, I realise it's OT but perhaps there is some mention of it in your tutorials somewhere which you could be kind enough to point me towards?

I have seen a photo somewhere a long time ago of Bjørn Rørslett using a similar head, I have searched repeatedly under many manufactures names but can't find any similar devices except for a Gitzo(?) square tilt head but that tilts two ways and seems much smaller.

Robert

[Bjørn Rørslett]

It's the Arca Cube C1 (or similar name). I'm using a heavy-duty Sachtler Video 20 fluid head which is functionally entirely different.

[Seapy]

Thanks Bjørn, is this the four way one? Kinda square from above...

I have a distinct memory of you using a similar, if larger (250mm long?) head with a long lens on a very heavy tripod, years ago, the photo was taken side on, it's etched in my mind because I admire solid engineering and that appeared very solid!

I ask, because I fancy making one, once I get my lathe up and running.  I see it as a route to a zero parallax mounting with the 'nodal*' point of the lens at the rotational centre of the slide.  Far more solid than the conventional panoramic heads that are for sale.


* I know it's not really the nodal point but the term seems to be accepted in the pano community.

[Bjørn Rørslett]

That has to be the Video 20 Fluid Head with the Sachtler ENG-CF 2 HD; the general setup I use for all lenses 400mm and up. This is the only setup that allows me shooting say a 1200 mm lens at 1/2 sec and getting sharp results.

The reduction of leverage is important and most ball heads only exacerbate the situation by raising the lens further up and away from the supporting platform.

That particular tripod isn't very heavy, by the way, only 4 kg, but certainly robust.