Author Topic: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?  (Read 3966 times)

F2F3F6

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What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« on: April 16, 2017, 21:32:37 »
Found a nice 5,6/400P-C auto Nikkor, type C, Ai-modified with original parts (serial number : 257169 (1975, one of the last before the ED version). Not so common lens isn't it ?

Compared it briefly against my 3,5/400 Ais IF-ED and wondered about the results ; the simple 5 elements of the P-C seem to get as good results as the 8 elements-6 groups of the 3,5/400...

A few images (of the lens and first tests) follow.

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2017, 21:53:20 »
Found a nice 5,6/400P-C auto Nikkor, type C, Ai-modified with original parts (serial number : 257169 (1975, one of the last before the ED version). Not so common lens isn't it ?

Compared it briefly against my 3,5/400 Ais IF-ED and wondered about the results ; the simple 5 elements of the P-C seem to get as good results as the 8 elements-6 groups of the 3,5/400...

A few images (of the lens and first tests) follow.

Optically it is supposed to be the same glass as the ED - just doesn't used ED in the name. I have one which has serial number 257029, so just a bit older than yours. I'm really happy with it.

The one thing that bothers me about it is the very long focus throw. When I use it handheld I found it is fastest to change focus by holding the lens and turning the body!

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2017, 21:58:57 »
My specimen is #257127 so just 42 units away.

It delivers pretty good image quality provided the lens is securely mounted on a decent tripod.

Focus throw is long but seen from a different perspective accordingly precise. I'm using this lens mainly for landscapes so focusing speed is of little or no concern anyway.

F2F3F6

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2017, 22:13:30 »
Thanks Bjoern and Jack!  Yes the focus throw is long, precise but a little hard to focus when extended beyond 10m/30 feet...

Here are the comparison shots (8m from the subject; evening daylight). First 3,5/400 (at 5,6) then 5,6/400 P-C.

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2017, 22:30:33 »
I have a hard time seeing any difference between them except for exposure.

David H. Hartman

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2017, 00:24:50 »
Thanks Bjoern and Jack!  Yes the focus throw is long, precise but a little hard to focus when extended beyond 10m/30 feet...

Take some weight off the helical focus by lifting the front section of the lens slightly. This can be done with the left thumb or finger even when hand holding. The focus will become smooth again. This is quite easy to do with a bit of practice and you'll soon forget that you are doing it. This is a trick I learned when I owned 300/4.5 Nikkor-H.

I own the 400/5.6 ED AI (same formula and probably coatings as yours) and find it a very good performing lens. I'm sure later designs are pulling away in IQ but I'm not allow to even touch the new ones.

If the 400/5.6 ED-IF has as fast, or short focus throw as the 300/4.5 ED-IF AI then it may be easy to focus but on the tricky side to nail the focus. I've never owned the 400/5.6 ED-IF so I can't compare the ED to the ED-IF.

Dave Hartman
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F2F3F6

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2017, 11:27:18 »
Thanks David, i had allready read your tip about lifting the front of the lens ! It works !
For the 5,6/400 IF-ED it is a good lens, not as crispy as the P-C/ ED but light, slim and contrasty (I had one two years ago, but sold it) and very easy focusing, but maybe too easy !
It seems that Nikon didn't find the right amount between too stiff (the 5,6/400 P-C or ED) and too fast (the IF-ED)...The ideal camera or ideal lens doesn't exist !
For the exposure of the two images, I was in A-mode at 5,6 : perhaps a slight exposure difference, it seems to me also a warmer color rendition for the P-C... 
I'll post some other views soon !

Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 11:34:45 »
The 400/5.6 ED-IF is notoriously difficult to keep steady on a tripod. The lens should have been heavier in my view so as to cut down on the tendency to resonate. It has slightly higher image contrast than the non-IF predecessor, though, but I don't think sharpness is much better if at all.

David H. Hartman

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2017, 12:41:18 »
The reason the 400/5.6 ED AI and P-C get stiff in focusing at close focus is as the helicoid gets extended less of its surfaces are matting and at the same time the weight of the optics is gaining leverage as it moves forward so focusing gets stiff. I think this is inherent vice for heavy optics and helical focus of a unit focusing lens. I would think most any lens of this type gets stiffer and it's focused closer. With smaller lenses the difference is probably so slight that we don't notice it.

I just got out my 180/2.8 ED AIS and I can't say I feel any difference as I focus near its minimum focus distance. It's a fairly heavy lens but the amount the helicoid moves the optics forward isn't that much. I haven't had a 180/2.8 ED apart but I'll guess the length of the helicoid v. the distance the optics move forward is quite in favor of smooth focus all the way. I can't detect that it gets any stiffer but my guess is it does only very slightly.

The IF designs like the 400/5.6 ED-IF and 300/4.5 ED-IF don't have much weight to move when focusing so the 300/4.5 ED-IF can be focused easily with a thumb or single finger. I'm pretty sure the 400/5.6 ED-IF would be the same.

There is a trade off with a short throw v. long. The short throw is better for quick focusing, hand holding and tracking while the long throw is better for precise focus on a tripod and for focusing using live view.

Dave

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An AF-S 400mm f/4.5E PF ED VR Nikkor would be to me a great addition to the Nikkor line. I wonder if Nikon will offer such a lens. I would think it would sell nicely.
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Matthew Currie

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2017, 17:44:21 »
I found with my 400/5.6 AI that although the long focus throw makes it hard to find a subject quickly or to catch action, if you do find it in time, it can help to keep it sharp with small changes in focus.  You miss a large percentage of birds in flight, but if you nail one, you can keep stay on it without overcompensating.  Of course nowadays one can do this with a good AF system, but back in the day, that lens was wonderfully sharp, and aside from being small enough to hand hold in a pinch, it has a really nice tripod foot.

Roland Vink

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 06:07:17 »
A very good lens. Belongs to a family of unit-focusing telephotos with similar 5-element designs, including AIS 200/4, AIS 180/2.8 ED, and the super-telephoto ED lens heads for AU-1 focusing unit. The simple optical structure with relatively few glass-air boundaries ensures good light transmission with high contrast.

Close focus distance is rather long at 5m, giving 1:9.1 magnification. It actually focuses slightly beyond the 5m mark so the magnification is about the same as the IF-ED version which gets to 1:8.8 at 4m (the IF-ED version has focal length shortening at close range which is why the magnification is not greater even though it focuses 1m closer).

I sometimes use extension tubes to increase magnification. Due to the long focal length, a lot of extension is required to much difference. The PK-13 (27.5mm) will give reduce the focus distance to 3.1m, with magnifications between 1:14.5 and 1:5.6.

As others have mentioned, focusing is heavy due to the big focus helix required for a unit focusing lens, and slow due to the long 260° focus throw, but focus action is smooth and precise.

The tripod collar and mount is solid, and the whole lens is stable in use. At slow shutter speeds the lens does require good support - I lost many twilight shots due to poor tripod technique!

The lens has 7 straight aperture blades. When stopped down the shape the aperture opening is noticeable compared to shorter lenses, it would be nicer with 9 rounded blades, but that's a minor point.

jhinkey

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 08:20:37 »
I have two copies of the 400/5.6 ED-AI and have not found the focusing stiffness on either copy to change appreciably when fully extended - both of my copies are slightly on the stiff side, so perhaps I don't notice any difference when the optical unit is extended for closer-in shots.

I had the 400/5.6 ED-IF AIS for a couple of years and found the non-IF versions to be optically superior in most regards - especially at wide open.
The IF versions were much lighter for sure - and as Bjorn says, almost too light for tripod use and the focusing was too fast compared to the ED-AI.
I too use mine mostly for landscapes so focus speed is not needed while the ability to get the absolute most out of the lens via accurate focusing is very much appreciated on the non-IF version.

If I ever found a 400/5.6 Nikkor P-C auto I'd buy it for sure.
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F2F3F6

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 20:20:35 »
I used to take my 5,6/400 IF-ED (sold two years ago) hand-hold at iso 800 or 1000, but when I used it on tripod, I added a monopod under the camera to get less vibrations and better images. It was a pretty good performer on my D300, even with modified TC14E...(f:8 or f:11 with TC).
But image quality of the P-C seems a bit better...fully open or at f:8.
Seems the 5,6/400 ED (non IF) will be better to use on a (good) tripod but no so easy handhold !
Must practice a bit more ! Thanks all for your messages, what about some pictures ?

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: What about the 5,6/400 Nikkor P-C auto ?
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2017, 05:37:57 »
I used to take my 5,6/400 IF-ED (sold two years ago) hand-hold at iso 800 or 1000, but when I used it on tripod, I added a monopod under the camera to get less vibrations and better images. It was a pretty good performer on my D300, even with modified TC14E...(f:8 or f:11 with TC).
But image quality of the P-C seems a bit better...fully open or at f:8.
Seems the 5,6/400 ED (non IF) will be better to use ona (good) tripod but no so easy handhold !
Must practice a bit more ! Thanks all for your messages, what about some pictures ?
Here is a shot from a month back about 5 meters away:
DFJ_3577