Author Topic: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)  (Read 11189 times)

Erik Lund

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2017, 08:20:49 »
The mirror stays up in live mode on the D7x00 and does not go down between shots unless you exit live view. However there is no EFCS on these cameras so the shutter may create some vibration.

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Bill De Jager

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2017, 17:00:28 »
A typical number comparison that doesn't make any sense IMHO. Not in any way or form does a D7000 and a Df produce a similar image.

I was correcting this clearly erroneous statement about resolution:

Many users have over time reported that the high MP Nikon, D7000, D7100 where very difficult to shoot, some have even given up using them,,,

My point clearly was that the D7000 is not a high MP camera compared to the Df.  In no way did I state or imply any equivalency in image quality, and in fact I specifically mentioned a difference in performance:

The D7000 has 16 MP across the sensor.  The Df has also has 16 MP but across a larger sensor.  The difference in sensor size affects pixel pitch and performance but not overall resolution.

Akira

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2017, 18:15:58 »
The essential point here is that D7000 is noticeably more unforgiving than Df in terms of camera blur.  I haven't used Df, but I can tell because my current D750 with higher pixel density is not as unforgiving as D7000 that I used.  I can be pretty sure, because I used D7000 mostly with 35/1.8 lenses and use D750 mostly with 50/1.8.
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Erik Lund

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2017, 21:40:55 »
,,,,My point clearly was that the D7000 is not a high MP camera compared to the Df. ,,,,

My statement is not erroneous! Previous models of DX cameras had lower MP, so the D700 was higher MP

It is the "High MP" for a DX camera that is one of the basic culprits in the D7000 and D7100.

What I am arguing is that the D7000 is a high MP camera compared to a Df- Since it is a DX sized sensor vs. a FX, so;

Shooting the D7000 is comparable to shooting 36 MP FX camera of same vintage, very challenging! shooting a Df is like a walk in the park compared to it, it's actually difficult to make a bad image with a Df,,,

I have no doubt about my statement, if you feel my statement is erroneous fine with me  ;D
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2017, 22:44:45 »
There are three primary variables here...

1) the native camera vibration in various modes.
2) the Capture media resolution.
3) the photographer's knowledge and skill.

It's not the camera's fault if one is not happy with the results. It's the responsibility of the photographer to make the best use of the equipment that they own.

For example I am frequently pushing the limits of my D800. I'm bird sitting and photographing a friend's large gray cockatoo. I'm pushing the ISO too high and get subtle but annoying color morie. VR takes care of camera movement but even a HD tripod could not stop subject movement. Most of the shots are in focus but the bird's movement is frequently erratic. High ISO tends to fuzz out fine detail. DoF is at a primium.

I understand the limitations of the D800 and I'm pushing pretty hard. I don't want to blame myself as I'm doing quite well under the circumstances. I'm resolved what I shall do: I'll blame Nikon for not making a true replacement for the D700! ;)

Dave Hartman



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Erik Lund

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2017, 22:51:13 »
Always blame the camera  :o
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2017, 22:53:04 »
oLnutJob,

Why should I take you out of NAS? I have to live with NAS and so should you. Buy the damned Df and be happy **for a while.

All The Best,

Dave Hartman

**A Nikon Df2 is surely coming soon.
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Erik Lund

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2017, 22:54:26 »
oLnutJob,

Why should I take you out of NAS? I have to live with NAS and so should you. Buy the damned Df and be happy for a while.

All The Best,

Dave Hartman
+1  ;D
Erik Lund

paul_k

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2017, 23:18:36 »
My statement is not erroneous! Previous models of DX cameras had lower MP, so the D700 was higher MP

It is the "High MP" for a DX camera that is one of the basic culprits in the D7000 and D7100.

What I am arguing is that the D7000 is a high MP camera compared to a Df- Since it is a DX sized sensor vs. a FX, so;

Shooting the D7000 is comparable to shooting 36 MP FX camera of same vintage, very challenging! shooting a Df is like a walk in the park compared to it, it's actually difficult to make a bad image with a Df,,,

I have no doubt about my statement, if you feel my statement is erroneous fine with me  ;D

Hm, I'm always amazed by the statements that a high MP camera is so hard to shoot with, even if such a camera admittedly does put high demands on the lenses used

When I got a D800, my trusty 2.8/80-200 AF D 2nd generation push pull which had been my workhorse lens for close to 20 years was the first victim, as it was way too soft wide open for use on a D800, even if it it previously was well up for the job on my D2X and D3.
Similarly my 18-55 kitlens zoom was great on my D2X and D70S, but is really not usable for 'serious' shooting on my D7100.

But I have no qualms shooting my 2012 D800 hand held, and still manage to get sharp images despite of it, even when using a, as far as 'sharpness is concerned, flawed lens (that's at least the impression I get from all the raving reviews of the latest Sigma Art, Zeiss etc lenses) as the 1.4/58mm AFS nearly wide open



Akira

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2017, 23:20:52 »
Always blame the camera  :o

That's how to keep NAS!   ;D
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Erik Lund

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2017, 23:51:37 »
Hm, I'm always amazed by the statements that a high MP camera is so hard to shoot with, even if such a camera admittedly does put high demands on the lenses used

When I got a D800, my trusty 2.8/80-200 AF D 2nd generation push pull which had been my workhorse lens for close to 20 years was the first victim, as it was way too soft wide open for use on a D800, even if it it previously was well up for the job on my D2X and D3.
Similarly my 18-55 kitlens zoom was great on my D2X and D70S, but is really not usable for 'serious' shooting on my D7100.

But I have no qualms shooting my 2012 D800 hand held, and still manage to get sharp images despite of it, even when using a, as far as 'sharpness is concerned, flawed lens (that's at least the impression I get from all the raving reviews of the latest Sigma Art, Zeiss etc lenses) as the 1.4/58mm AFS nearly wide open

Well I can see what you are putting forward and I agree, I also can get sharp images hand held with the D810 I use the grip and the D5 battery, on the other hand I struggle to get sharp images with D7000 from time to time if I'm not careful enough,,,

But set up 'same camera and lens' D810 or D800 like your sample on a big Fluid or Burzynski head on top of a big stable tripod, Sachtler or Series 5 Gitzo,,, same shot will be sharper! Unless she blinks  ;)

Very nice shot BTW!!!
 
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Bjørn Rørslett

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2017, 23:54:56 »
A small, lightweight camera with high MPix is about the worst solution one can deal with. Hand-hold it or put it on an inadequate tripod, or forgo all required tripod technique, and results will be awful.

Steven Paulsen

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2017, 03:05:10 »
My assumption, or guess is that the small sensor, overcrowded with pixels is too sensitive for even for VR lenses to compensate, while hand holding. The vibrating elements of the inner lens throws incoming light in too far of a spread, to match pixel density.

I assume that is why this model is still plentiful, silver box, and at a modest price in the states.

Back to my actual use of the darned thing. Perched on legs, enlarged live view with an Ai/Ais, Macro lens, worthless for general use.

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2017, 04:35:52 »
My statement is not erroneous! Previous models of DX cameras had lower MP, so the D700 was higher MP

It is the "High MP" for a DX camera that is one of the basic culprits in the D7000 and D7100.

What I am arguing is that the D7000 is a high MP camera compared to a Df- Since it is a DX sized sensor vs. a FX, so;

Shooting the D7000 is comparable to shooting 36 MP FX camera of same vintage, very challenging! shooting a Df is like a walk in the park compared to it, it's actually difficult to make a bad image with a Df,,,

I have no doubt about my statement, if you feel my statement is erroneous fine with me  ;D

OK, I think I see the point you're making, Eric. Let's unpack this a bit.

The D7000 was 16 MP while the preceding D90 was 12.3 MP. That's not much of a bump up, only a 14% change in linear resolution.  Also, in my experience the 24 MP DX cameras (D7100, D7200, etc.) are the ones usually called high resolution by current standards.  So that was part of the reason for what I said.

But you're making an argument that size of sensor is also relevant here.  This is a bit trickier because there are several obvious possible sources of blur that relate to resolution:

-Focus not being quite as good as it could be.
-Lens resolution being exceeded.
-Camera and lens movement caused by external movement (handheld, poor support, or poor technique imparting motion to the camera).
-Camera movement (perhaps with some help from lens leverage) caused by mirror or shutter slap.

The first two of these are obviously going to be worse with a smaller sensor used with an FX lens.  On the other hand, with a lens native to a smaller sensor size I don't see this problem being worse as long as the MP are equal.  So I think it depends.

I hadn't previously though about the third and fourth factors being affected by sensor size, so I'm going to spend a little time thinking about this and keep an open mind.  There may not be a single answer that will cover all possible causes of motion.  For instance, I'd think that when you're externally moving a handheld camera, what would matter would be the resolution across the actual field of view (given the same angle of view).   On the other hand, if a long lens on a tripod is vibrating like a tuning fork then I can see a smaller sensor with a smaller pixel pitch being more strongly affected.  Interesting question!

In the end, it looks like our disagreement was semantic. I was using resolution in the most common sense, total resolution across the sensor.  You were using MP to mean resolution, but more in the sense of pixel pitch.  Which type of resolution to consider will depend on the question being asked.

BTW, the overall issue we're discussing here does concern me personally. While I have a D7200 which tends to be limited to the tripod, I've long considered getting a used Df.  That way I'd have a lower-resolution camera with 'enough' pixels for just walking around and manually focusing with older lenses, without the rigamarole of a tripod and live view focusing.

Erik Lund

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Re: Talk me out of "NAS" in regards to a DF (long read)
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2017, 12:36:04 »
I agree, thank you.
Erik Lund