Author Topic: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens  (Read 49085 times)

simsurace

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #60 on: May 06, 2016, 20:40:23 »
I understand that, Ilkka, and I agree that the lens has so many positives that the VR issues are only a minor point.
I also understand that the usage of very fast shutter speeds is the safer route. That will always be the case, and I will also go that route whenever I can.

But I still hold the view that the behavior that many users report (and that in the case of the D8XX has been officially acknowledged and addressed) is not to be expected, and there are plenty of examples of people getting sharp results in the critical range of shutter speeds (even if there might only be a 1/10 or 1/5 chance of getting them, it is non-zero). Therefore there is a reasonable expectation for occasionally getting usable results at those speeds. The non-monotonic behavior is unsatisfactory and difficult to reconcile with the idea that VR should give a certain number of stops advantage (i.e. it gives 3 stops advantage but not 2, or something like that).

This is pure speculation, but the fact that the D810 showed the problem and they were able to improve on it, and the fact that they could improve on it also on the D800 and D800E suggests that the motorized mirror is not a crucial element of the solution. If the shutter movement is the problem, it should still be something that can be corrected via firmware; the shutter movement-induced vibration is very predictable and could be part of the algorithm that determines the movement of the VR motor. Maybe this is encoded somewhere in the lens and that is the reason they need you to send in the lens to have it serviced. But I really don't know if I'm on the right track here.
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chris dees

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #61 on: May 06, 2016, 21:31:54 »
The problems are much less when I have my RRS L-plate or grip on my D810.
Chris Dees

simsurace

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #62 on: May 06, 2016, 21:45:23 »
Interesting. I do have an L bracket, but I've actually never tested without it, normally I leave it on at all times. So I should probably try to take it off, though I do not expect any miracles.
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Øivind Tøien

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #63 on: May 06, 2016, 23:10:56 »

Several dpreview users reported that having a lens collar mounted on the lens while hand holding helps. I also think it provides a better grip on the lens, cradling the lens plate in my hand, and I use it the whole time.
Øivind Tøien

simsurace

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #64 on: May 06, 2016, 23:22:45 »
Thanks! I will try that out as well.
Simone Carlo Surace
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2016, 12:34:01 »
Much of the frequency content of vibrations initiated by the shutter are higher than that of camera shake due to human hand holding. The VR system can only effectively work on vibrations that are not too high in frequency. Mass (as in the case of a heavy camera body and heavy lens) attenuates high frequency vibration effectively. Since Nikon updated both the lens (300PF) and body (D750) firmware specifically to improve and optimize VR performance, I suspect that's it in terms of firmware tweaks on this topic in the near future. Further improvements in the technology will no doubt come out in the future, mainly in the form of new products.

My experience is that the 300 PF is not unique in that certain shutter speeds result in poor sharpness hand held with VR. Tripod based results (VR off) with the 70-200/2.8 II, for example, are clearly sharper than when hand holding the lens with VR on (normal mode) at 1/160s.

With my 70-200/4, I noticed that VR ceased to function properly in cold weather (I don't remember the temperature but it must have been around -15 to -20 C). I noticed the viewfinder was not appreciably stabilized and the shots came out blurry as well. I brought out the tripod and turned off VR as I should have in the first place (it was a landscape subject and I had no reason to hand hold except being lazy). This technology has many limitations as has often been discussed here.

simsurace

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2016, 13:11:04 »
Much of the frequency content of vibrations initiated by the shutter are higher than that of camera shake due to human hand holding. The VR system can only effectively work on vibrations that are not too high in frequency.
To test this, I will use MUP or exposure delay and see whether there is any improvement.
Simone Carlo Surace
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bjornthun

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2016, 15:16:18 »
To test this, I will use MUP or exposure delay and see whether there is any improvement.
If your camera supports electronic first curtain, you should activate that as well. You need to get rid of both the mirror bounce and the shutter shock, for hand held shooting with an image stabilizer to be fully efficient and satisfactory.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2016, 18:12:43 »
The D750 doesn't support EFCS. But it has lower shadow noise at equal ISOs so ... I'm not sure if the D810's sensor's modifications that implemented EFCS caused the increase in shadow noise or if it is soemething else. Nikon's reluctance to put in EFCS across the lineup suggests they find tradeoffs/problems with it. Of course the D810 is excellent at ISO 64 and very good still at higher ISO. The D750 I find markedly better at ISO 6400-12800 than the D810 but at up to ISO 1000 or so, I really like the D810.

Anyway while I sympathize that the VR should work better, I accept that such a system is imperfect and should be regarded as one tool among others that can be used when it seems likely that it would improve the results. I totally understand that it is an expensive lens and criticism is justified but I think it is likely that the limits stem from physics and engineering hasn't been able to overcome them.

bjornthun

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #69 on: May 07, 2016, 19:24:32 »
The D750 doesn't support EFCS. But it has lower shadow noise at equal ISOs so ... I'm not sure if the D810's sensor's modifications that implemented EFCS caused the increase in shadow noise or if it is soemething else. Nikon's reluctance to put in EFCS across the lineup suggests they find tradeoffs/problems with it. Of course the D810 is excellent at ISO 64 and very good still at higher ISO. The D750 I find markedly better at ISO 6400-12800 than the D810 but at up to ISO 1000 or so, I really like the D810.

Anyway while I sympathize that the VR should work better, I accept that such a system is imperfect and should be regarded as one tool among others that can be used when it seems likely that it would improve the results. I totally understand that it is an expensive lens and criticism is justified but I think it is likely that the limits stem from physics and engineering hasn't been able to overcome them.
Whatever tradeoff there might be, I think it's minuscle in comparison to extracting a vibration free image from an (often expensive) lens. Slightly more noise at ISO 12,800 is a secondary priority.

The sensor noise was a non-issue when I had the D800.

Akira

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #70 on: May 07, 2016, 19:47:38 »
Anyway while I sympathize that the VR should work better, I accept that such a system is imperfect and should be regarded as one tool among others that can be used when it seems likely that it would improve the results. I totally understand that it is an expensive lens and criticism is justified but I think it is likely that the limits stem from physics and engineering hasn't been able to overcome them.

Ilkka, I wouldn't disagree basically.

But the range of the shutter speed (1/80 - 1/125) with the 300/4.0 PF VR is exactly in the range that is supposed to be most benefited by the additional 4.0 stop range announced by the lens.  Also, D800/810/750 are ones of the very cameras that 300PF is most likely used with.  So, I still don't really understand why the problem seems to have been overlooked in the development stage.
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Akira

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #71 on: May 07, 2016, 19:53:04 »
By the way, I also don't understand why you have to "slaughter" TC20E (or whatever TCs compatible with the 300 PF) to extend the close up range.  The magnification factor at the shortest focusing distance of the lens (0.24x) is doubled by TC20 (to 0.48x).  Can you achieve the same magnification with the 300 PF and PN11 (or the slaughtered TC20E) combo?  You can still use tripod collar on the 300 PF.
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Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2016, 12:37:17 »
About 1/3 stop loss in PDR in the range of ISO settings from 100 to 12800 in the D810 (relative to D800, D800E) may not be real world significant but in the pursuit of the best possible signal quality I can see the designers hesitate to accept such a tradeoff. But it may not be a result of incorporating EFCS but something else that they changed. The D750 pulls ahead from the D8x0 family at high ISO. It is a real world significant advantage when working in low light. These are all excellent sensors but the D8x0 family is not ideal for high ISO work especially under low K lighting. As to what priorities each photographer has for the different features, that's for every photographer to decide. I like EFCS for tripod based landscape work but when I'm photographing an event hand held I use fast shutter speeds and prefer low shadow noise. AFAIK the D500 has EFCS so Nikon is working on it at least for some cameras.

The 300 PF is an E lens and if you want to control the aperture you cannot use a standard PN-11.

I can only assume the CIPA test doesn't catch the VR problem (would you see the blur when holding a 4x6 print at about 1m distance? I don't remember the exact details but the test is based on a fairly low standard of what is acceptably sharp). Or the problem may not have happened in the exact test conditions where Nikon evaluated it. For the real world testing I suspect much of it involved moving subjects and fast shutter speeds. It took them about 13 years to revise the 300/4 AF-S. I would guess the management and certainly customers grew impatient.

bjornthun

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2016, 14:45:16 »
1/3 stop less of so-called "PDR" at high ISO is a very theoretical loss as opposed to the practical gain of shooting telephoto lenses with a minimum of vibrations when tripod mounted. Mirror up + EFCS will give you the lowest amount of vibrations to fight at the outset, when you use a DSLR to do tripod mounted tele photography, particularly with light lenses like a 300/4 or a 400/5.6. Heavier lenses like a 300/2.8 or a 500/4 have much more mass with which to fight vibrations from DSLR mirror slap + shutter bounce.

I assume that the term "PDR" stems from tests done by Bill Claff, tests which I view with much sceptisism.

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Technical aspects of the AFS 300mm f/4 E PF lens
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2016, 14:03:42 »
1/3 stop less of so-called "PDR" at high ISO is a very theoretical loss as opposed to the practical gain of shooting telephoto lenses with a minimum of vibrations when tripod mounted. Mirror up + EFCS will give you the lowest amount of vibrations to fight at the outset, when you use a DSLR to do tripod mounted tele photography, particularly with light lenses like a 300/4 or a 400/5.6.

I agree and the D810 is my main camera and the one I'd choose for such work. However, my point is that there may be engineering reasons / tradeoffs behind Nikon's reluctance to adopt EFCS across the board in the sensors that they use in their cameras. They have a broad user base whose needs they need to consider. Nikon says that the D810 EFCS may cause uneven exposure at faster shutter speeds with PC-E lenses, for example. So at present it isn't the default mode of operation in the camera but only invoked as a custom function and in a specific drive mode (M-UP).

Quote
I assume that the term "PDR" stems from tests done by Bill Claff, tests which I view with much sceptisism.

Right, I was referring to Bill Claff's site. I think the concept of photographic dynamic range is solid (he uses a higher threshold for the noise floor where the SNR for an image segment is supposed to be at least 20 instead of 1 as in DXOMark's tests to be included in the dynamic range; SNR = 1 is just too low to be considered for imaging purposes and I'm in agreement with Mr. Claff on this subject). What I don't like about his methodology is that he analyzes images sent by others. This does not seem like a truly controlled test methology and could be subject to errors due to test condition and tester variability. However, AFAIK DXOMark do use a testing procedure that is in controlled  conditions (of course every procedure has some variability and the camera and photon noise themselves, as well as camera sample variability contribute to it). I'm not suggesting one should believe the results of one site blindly but when they point to the same direction there is probably something to it.

DXOMark's dynamic range measurements show that the D810 has worse DR than the D800E and D750 from ISO 100 to 1600. From 3200 to 12800 the D750 is above the D800E and D810. So while there are subtle differences, both sites show (using independent data from each other) that the D810 DR has some loss compared to the D800(E) and is not the best of the Nikons, when compared at equal ISO settings (though at ISO 64 it is the best). In other areas the D810 does shine, e.g. the dxomark color sensitivity measurements show an advantage to the D810 over the D750 from ISO 100 to 400. One thing that I noticed when using the D750 is that I preferred the D810 colours and resolution at low to moderate ISO, but the D750 allowed some ISO 6400 shots that were underexposed (shooting into the light) to be recovered that could not have produced acceptable results using the D810 or D800. The Df / D4 family / D5 likely show a further advantage at ultra high ISO over the D750  but I haven't used them enough to say what its real world significance is. I do know that at ISO 6400 the light and shooting conditions are often such that it is critical to get the best image quality possible to make the results presentable. I find the D810's ISO 6400 image quality problematic especially if I need to do vignetting correction (which results in a marked blue shift in the corners with this camera, also with the D800 it was worse as there were lines in the noise which are absent in the D810 images).

My overall preference is the D810 but this has just as much to do with the body ergonomics and features as image quality.  I like EFCS for tripod based landscape and macro shooting with a telephoto. However, I also do event photography and quite a lot of it is at around ISO 6400 and thus one sensor is not optimal across the board. Nikon now offers at least two cameras with EFCS (in raw mode; the D4s AFAIK can do EFCS only JPG if I understood correctly) and so the users with specific needs should choose these cameras to alleviate their vibration issues, if economically feasible. The D750's lack of EFCS was disappointing to me when the camera was introduced but my main complaint about that camera is that it doesn't fit into my hands well, and in the winter when I must wear gloves it is just uncomfortable to use. However, many people love the D750's shape so it is a subjective thing, depends on the individual's hand and finger size. It does present a very attractive second camera due to its compactness, and I intend to take the D810 + D750 pair to Iceland this summer, as I need a second camera for the trip to use in case of camera failure. Also I use it nowadays in preference to the D810 for some of my high ISO work.

Perhaps Nikon can improve EFCS in the future so that there won't be any need not to use it in regular shooting, and it could also be used in hand held shooting with the viewfinder (I'm not sure why there is the limitation to M-UP mode unless it is simply that Nikon wants us to use it only in carefully controlled situations with cable release, so as to make it less likely that the artifacts of rolling shutter and uneven exposure show up more often). I would hope also that future implementations of VR can operate at higher frequencies and better compensate for vibration caused by the mechanical shutter. As of now, both technologies have limitations and we as photographers have to work around those limitations.