Author Topic: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'  (Read 1436 times)

Hugh_3170

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2021, 08:03:50 »
This question might be better off in a thread of its own.

The arrival of the Z9 and the expansion of the Z mount lens ecosphere has got me thinking that we may not get to see a D7 and that new F-mount cameras might be few if any. 

Given that building Z mount cameras with pure electronic shutters and no mirror boxes is significantly simpler and cheaper than building DSLRs I cannot see Nikon building new F mount cameras (although there is no reason I suppose that an electronic shutter/sensor could not be fitted to a DSLR, but then the mirror would hobble the frame rate and I cannot see Nikon getting into pure mirrorless F-mount cameras either - that would make no sense to me). 

And not too many F-mount lenses either I would surmise, although any such new build F mount lenses might be developed in parallel with a Z mount counterpart.  Certainly an F mount "E" lens is a safe enough investment for Nikon and its customers given that the FTZ adapter allows such lenses to work well on Z bodies.  But how long would/could Nikon provide such legacy support for F mount bodies?

What are others thoughts on new F-mount camera and lens futures? 

How dead is F mount?

(Or is it a case of King F is already dead; so long live King Z!  ;D )

Hugh Gunn

Birna Rørslett

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2021, 08:26:02 »
It's not easy to make a prediction. However, the scenario with D3 and F6 comes to mind. The superior technology usurped the throne. There never was an F7. And it is likely there never will be a D7 either. We already have the Z7.

chambeshi

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2021, 11:02:26 »
I agree the Z mount and Mirrorless, digital technology is finally beginning to overtake the hegemony of DSLRs in sales, and most recently Mirrorless has caught up to the flagships, with the Z9 overtaking the Z9 in overall features (expect perhaps lowlight Image Quality!?!). This shift has intensified since the Sony A9. The pioneering R&D by Nikon is clearly accelerating the focus on stacked-sensors as the new frontier. As Thom Hogan argues, these will build in more and more of the functions, many of which have always been mechanical (ie focus and the shutter).

I was up at the tender hour of 0130 this morning - GMT+1 - for a zoom talk with Thom Hogan and Mark Comon (Paul's Camera, Torrence CA). Much information was covered, some useful insights new to me, so well worth the nocturnal event. TH reiterated why the Z9 is a D1 Moment at several points in the Discussion. He also underscored an aspect of the Z9 autofocus, which no one else had mentioned IME (in screening a lot of material over the past few days). I've enlarged on a fascinating aspect of the new AF System in the Z9 release thread....
https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?action=post;quote=177329;topic=10206.120;last_msg=177329

Back to F-mount system, the strong emphasis by Nikon on the ~94 G and E Nikkors compatible with the Z cameras via FTZ translate into their persistence for some years to come, as are the medium and top DSLR, for the sound reason Nikon built rather too well  ;D ;D And I for one plan to keep working with an integrated system (D5 and D850)...if Used D6 prices crash this state of the art DSLR for its Custom Group AF modes and better Recall Shooting Functions alone, and this could replace the excellent D5...  It's still early days, indeed.
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20 f4 AI 28 f2.8AIS 45 f2.8AIP 55mm 2.8AIS+60 f2.8G Micro

Eddie Draaisma

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2021, 13:47:38 »
There was never an F7, but the F6 was available for a rather long time. Same pattern might apply for D7/D6 as well.

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2021, 16:15:27 »
What are others thoughts on new F-mount camera and lens futures? 

How dead is F mount?

(Or is it a case of King F is already dead; so long live King Z!  ;D )

The D6 is mortally wounded and the D7 will not see the light of day. With Z series reaching parity and beyond on AF, burst speed, video, weight, reliability and other functionality there is no point in trying to improve the mirror, shutter and optical viewfinder which are the only remaining features which distinguish the D series from the Z series. Those technologies are very mature and I can't imagine how a D7 would improve on the existing assemblies in the D6.

I think that Z mount will be the primary design target for lenses as well. In some cases, long lenses for example, it is likely that a lens developed for Z series could be repackaged for F series if the rear element is far enough from the sensor. On the wide side I think F mount is dead as the Z line is showing clear advantages of the shorter flange distance.

chambeshi

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2021, 09:13:48 »
And this was likely the higher manufacturing costs of Nikon's last flagship film SLRs

At a significantly larger scale in the evolution of technology, History often rhymes, when we look back to the complicated life history of the FM3a (long read):

https://imaging.nikon.com/history/chronicle/history-fm3a/

With the Z9, digitalization has removed the last obstacle to a fully electronic Interchangeable Lens Camera. Thus as Thom H argues, the Z9 has indeed initiated a unavoidable switch of the photography industry to a new trajectory.

Rival companies will already have begun to scramble to find equivalent sensor-based technology to build their cameras more efficiently and with similar scope of cutting edge features and capabilities....This could have long delays, if it's even feasible in the newly defined ILC industry in which stacked-sensor costs have become the brand new leveller as to profits and market share, and who survives to persist over the longer term. It's likely that Nikon will tactically expanded the scope of its new strategy months back to embrace and extend its advantages into forthcoming Z cameras


It's not easy to make a prediction. However, the scenario with D3 and F6 comes to mind. The superior technology usurped the throne. There never was an F7. And it is likely there never will be a D7 either. We already have the Z7.
#chambeshiphoto
D850, D5, 58 f1.4G, 85 f1.4D, 400 f2.8E VRII 300 f4E PF 500 f5.6E PF, 70-180 Micro f4-5.6D 70-200 f2.8E FL, Zeiss Distagons -15 f2.8, 21 f2.8
20 f4 AI 28 f2.8AIS 45 f2.8AIP 55mm 2.8AIS+60 f2.8G Micro

Ilkka Nissilä

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2021, 13:25:01 »
People are getting a little carried away, I think.

The camera system won't be void of mechanical components. Focusing, zooming, image stabilization (both in body and in lens) involve moving parts, and some of the controls also operate mechanically. Not that I think there is any great need to get rid of mechanical systems, IMO. Of course, high fps rates and video operate with electronic shutter and this is an important development, to have electronic shutter with fast enough read cycle so that most rolling shutter and banding are avoided. However, there is likely some cost in dynamic range (dpreview estimated less than 1 stop compared to Z7 II, which in turn is slightly worse than the D850). This is still better than cameras like the D6 which have a sensor optimized for a narrower set of applications, but it may not be the best DR achievable for applications such as landscape. High fps rate and fast read time also may be incompatible with the highest resolutions that might be implemented in the future, such as 100 or 200 MP. Electronic shutter does have advantages for high-resolution photography as shutter-induced shake is avoided (but most of this is already avoided using EFCS).

EVF lag is dependent on light level as in dim light they need to amplify the signal and e.g. to see objects at night, they may also need to collect data over a longer integration interval further increasing the delay.  Variable delay can be a problem when timing shots in different lighting conditions. I believe a lag-free EVF when I see it; currently I don't really believe it's possible. I know my timing goes completely off when photographing with an EVF camera in a dim restaurant, the captured shots do not match what I saw in the viewfinder. Z9 may be better, but whether it is good enough, remains to be seen.

Low light creates another problem, for the AF. In low light, autofocus based on embedded PDAF sensors can struggle and the cameras typically augment the data with CDAF or switch completely to a CDAF algorithm, which can work poorly with adapted F-mount lenses (apart from the stepper motor lenses). Although it has been shown that adapted lenses work great on the Z9 in bright daylight, I haven't seen a similar demonstration of the capability in low light (with adapted AF-S Nikkor lenses). Time will tell.

IMO silent photography is the big benefit of mirrorless cameras and the Z9 appears to feature it in general photography without significant artifacts (beyond those that the mechanical shutter also produces). However, currently the full-frame stacked BSI sensors are not available on any medium or lower-cost cameras, which suggests that the cost of producing such sensors is too high (or the production volume that is possible now is low) to use in the mid- and lower-end models that probably constitute way over 90% of the ILC market. Thus it remains a dream and not reality for most photographers, including professionals except the more wealthy end of the market.

One should probably factor in the cost of a Z lens setup and backup bodies etc. into the cost of gaining access to the full capability of the Z9. So if one really believes that it makes sense to do a broad variety of subjects, the cost of the "transition" will be very high. It will take quite a while to happen for most photographers with existing complete systems. Many lens types are still absent from the Z lineup, including all f/1.4 lenses, 135mm, 200mm and 300mm primes, tilt/shift lenses, and also movie-specific lenses including powered zooms (that other manufacturers such as Sony and Canon have).  The 16mm flange-back distance may be limiting for the implementation of built-in ND filters (not sure, but think it might become a struggle) which are needed for video in bright sunlight and may be helpful in other circumstances as well.

While I like high-resolution still cameras, I don't believe that high resolution is genuinely useful or often practical in video. Generally, to create fluid movement, a slow shutter speed is needed and this blurs the details in the main subject. It's of course possible to have high resolution landscape video etc. but I generally feel video is best used for moving and living subjects and high-resolution is best used in still photography (because to perceive details, one needs time to scan the scene or image, and in video things are in motion and so there is no time for details). I can understand why Nikon would argue that high-resolution in video is just as important as in stills because their main argument for their system is image quality. But I believe that for most professional applications of video, even 4K is overkill and probably most work continues in HD, certainly in the case of streaming. What disadvantage does an 8K camera have for HD? Usually the HD in high-resolution cameras is not as high quality as it from dedicated professional video cameras that are optimized for it. You can get a good outcome by recording in higher resolution and exporting in HD but this isn't applicable to applications requiring immediacy. Z9 has no physical audio controls, only one microphone input, and no built-in NDs. The colour profiles are different from what more traditional video camera companies use which means you can't as easily collaborate with others on video (especially for live coverage). I just don't have such a rosy outlook on this. I am not doubting that it's necessary for Nikon to produce equipment for video but don't really think that they have the right plan on how to do this; I think it's much more important to have access to lenses designed for video (which Nikon are doing to some extent by considering focus breathing etc., but not yet power zooms) and full controls on the camera (designed around the needs of video work including comprehensive ND and audio controls) rather than 8K. (I totally get that because of the high resolution of the Z lenses Nikon would want to argue that 8K is the way forward, but I think it'll be difficult to get people on board).

I also don't believe that photographers equipped to do stills will be skilled in video and vice versa, despite the claims that these media will integrate into one and you just need the right camera (!). The processes are completely different and most of the equipment are not shared. Video requires gimbals, fluid heads, cranes, powered zooms, microphones, audio recording systems, streaming equipment, GPUs, and above all a plan for everything when shooting, and often a crew. In still photography, a single photographer can capture shots from different camera angles by quickly moving without having to consider continuity which would be a kind of straightjacket (that videographers have to adhere to, but still photographers have more freedom). Typically to cover multiple camera angles in video you need multiple cameras and operators. Post processing is very time-consuming as well, the audio needs to be cleaned up and artifacts removed, colour needs to be maintained across the cameras and over time, and it's more difficult to edits since one has to consider the continuity there as well. I just don't believe there are great advantages to the hybridization. Believing that it's a good idea leads more people to invest in the wrong equipment and waste money instead of getting the right equipment for the tasks and also limiting one's focus is necessary to acquire the required skills.

I don't believe that it's a good idea for most photographers to try to be generalists. It can be more difficult to market work as a photographer if one shows a lot of different disciplines of work, as people are usually looking for those who do specifically the kind of work that the customer needs in a particular job and may not believe that one person can be as good in photographing and videographing every subject as a specialist.

I have no doubt the Z9 will be a great camera just don't believe that cameras in the future will be all electronic or all-purpose instruments and photographers will be even less so.

Erik Lund

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2021, 14:08:11 »
Thank you for the sanity check ;) I can nod to all of the above points.
Erik Lund

golunvolo

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2021, 14:09:30 »
So do I. It resonates with my experience working in theater. People -and above all clients- tend to get carried away

Jan Anne

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2021, 15:08:53 »
Recently found this interesting article about the pro’s and cons of a mechanical, full electronic and electric first curtain shutters:
https://photographylife.com/mechanical-electronic-shutter-efcs

Nikon claims to have solved all the known issues of the current electronic shutters but would be interesting to see if it is the best of both worlds now.

As for DR, Ricci mentioned that DR was on par or better than the current Nikon hi res cameras and same for the high ISO performance compared to the D6.
Cheers,
Jan Anne

Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2021, 17:22:31 »
One of the major use cases for 8K video is having enough pixels to reframe, punch in, pan, and rotate in post production.

David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2021, 18:39:46 »
I was not acquainted with "EFCS" (Electronic Front-Curtain Shutter) so I did a search and this is the first article I read which also contains a video...

https://petapixel.com/2018/12/07/psa-electronic-front-curtain-shutter-may-be-quietly-hurting-your-bokeh/

Here is a direct link to the video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQTarMu_y6Y

This is totally new to me. It appears that the use of an EFCS adversely affects one's bokeh. As I understand the article and video this issue appears at about 1/1,000th second or higher shutter speed when using an EFCS and seems to be a feature of all camera brands.

I wonder what others think of this article and video?

Dave
 
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David H. Hartman

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #27 on: November 04, 2021, 18:54:58 »
Recently found this interesting article about the pro’s and cons of a mechanical, full electronic and electric first curtain shutters:
https://photographylife.com/mechanical-electronic-shutter-efcs

Thank you for posting this link. I hope to read this article soon. I scanned it and found nested in it a link to the article I offered above.

Best,

Dave
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Jack Dahlgren

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #28 on: November 04, 2021, 19:10:21 »
People are getting a little carried away, I think.

The camera system won't be void of mechanical components. Focusing, zooming, image stabilization (both in body and in lens) involve moving parts, and some of the controls also operate mechanically. Not that I think there is any great need to get rid of mechanical systems, IMO.

I have no doubt the Z9 will be a great camera just don't believe that cameras in the future will be all electronic or all-purpose instruments and photographers will be even less so.

I don't think the existence of the Z9 will change photographers. I think it will change Nikon's product development roadmap and already has. Getting rid of optical viewfinder and shutter reduces weight and cost. Arguably removing the shutter also improves reliability.

I wouldn't suggest that everything become electronic. Only things which have fewer compromises than the alternative will be successful. This doesn't mean it is the absolute best or even equal to existing alternatives. 35mm film is inferior to medium format or large format for image quality, yet the 35mm form factor became dominant because it was smaller, lighter, faster and cheaper. Smaller formats failed because image quality was too compromised to make up for their advantages. Optical viewfinders have zero lag and high resolution. But they black-out during image capture, they are heavy, they require a complex and expensive mirror and prism arrangement, they can not easily be zoomed to view fine details, they can not boost brightness in dark conditions. So while high resolution and zero lag are important, when the alternative (EVF) minimizes the compromise in those areas to a point where the advantages of EVF outweigh the compromises, the evolution in the former technology will slow or stop. In my opinion that has happened with the Z9, and will be followed by other camera manufacturers. Don't worry though! Nikon F series cameras were made in the millions and are available for very low prices.

Eddie Draaisma

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Re: Nikon's Z9 a game Changer.: A D1, than D3 'moment'
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2021, 08:25:26 »
I was not acquainted with "EFCS" (Electronic Front-Curtain Shutter) so I did a search and this is the first article I read which also contains a video...

https://petapixel.com/2018/12/07/psa-electronic-front-curtain-shutter-may-be-quietly-hurting-your-bokeh/

Here is a direct link to the video...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQTarMu_y6Y

This is totally new to me. It appears that the use of an EFCS adversely affects one's bokeh. As I understand the article and video this issue appears at about 1/1,000th second or higher shutter speed when using an EFCS and seems to be a feature of all camera brands.

I wonder what others think of this article and video?

Dave


This is the reason newer Nikons (e.g. Z7) have an auto shutter setting, which changes the shutter type from EFCS to fully mechanical at 1/250s. Slower than 1/250s the shutter works in EFCS mode, faster than 1/250s the shutter works fully "mechanical". Very handy setting b.t.w.