Author Topic: Tripod Apex question  (Read 13345 times)

Les Olson

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Re: Tripod Apex question
« Reply #45 on: March 20, 2018, 12:14:49 »
"The longer the focal length is, the more apparent vibration becomes, and the demand for eliminating or preventing that vibration is increased."

"Even though a 300mm/f4 lens might only weigh as much as a 70-200mm/f2.8, you still deal with the same magnification factor in terms of "revealing" the vibration within a system. This may be emphasized by lower mass of the lens, since a lighter setup has less inertial resistance to outside vibration."

Yes, but the question is "Which outside vibration?". 

Most large amplitude vibrations in the everyday world are low frequency.  If you look at the graph purporting to show that an RRS tripod is much better because it has better vibration damping (http://www.reallyrightstuff.com/tripod-guide) you will see that where the RRS is better is around 100-500Hz, and it is no better below 100Hz (note that the scale is dB, so the same green area lower down the X-axis represents a much smaller effect, so you can ignore the area up at 5-10kHz).  The large amplitude vibrations a photographer is likely to encounter, like trucks and trains and herds of wildebeest, are low frequency, in that < 100 Hz range where the RRS is no better.  The 100-500Hz range is ordinary music and human speech - middle C on the piano is 260Hz - so if you regularly photograph next to someone with a really loud stereo you might want the RRS, but most of us do not often encounter large amplitude vibrations in that range. 

Another point the tripod makers ignore is that vibrations arising in the camera are a different problem to vibrations coming through the ground. The camera generates vibrations when the mirror goes up and when the shutter opens.  The camera damps the vibrations arising in the mirror quite effectively, and in some cameras Nikon adds a tiny delay between mirror movement and shutter opening to allow the vibrations to decay, so mirror movement is not a big issue. Vibrations caused by shutter opening cannot be damped by the tripod until they reach the tripod, so the tripod cannot have any effect on the first part of the exposure, and the faster the shutter speed the more of the exposure that is.  The speed of sound in aluminium rods is 5000 m/sec, so if you have a 2m tripod it takes the vibrations 0.4msec to get to the bottom, which is not trivial when shutter speed is 1/1000 and the whole exposure lasts 1msec. The damping figures you get in that RRS graph are at equilibrium.  That is OK for external vibrations, but not for internal vibrations, where you need to know not how good the damping is at equilibrium but how good it is very quickly.

The tripod can affect vibrations arising in the camera only to the degree that the tripod and the camera are coupled - act as a single mass.  If you have a rubber or cork pad between the camera and the tripod, or a poorly fitting quick release, the tripod has much less effect on vibrations arising in the camera.

It is very easy to test whether your tripod is damping internal camera vibrations.  Closing the doors on a good car makes a different sound to the doors on a poorly made car: lower pitched, shorter, and with fewer overtones.  The reason is that on a good car the parts are tightly assembled.  So if you listen to the sound of your camera shutter when it is just sat on a flat hard surface, then clamped on the tripod with the ballhead tightened, you should hear the same difference as with the car doors, and if you hear no difference you have a problem. 

basker

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Re: Tripod Apex question
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2018, 21:50:11 »
Erik, thanks for your valuable insight.

Thinking out of the box,,, This is quite a stable setup  ;D
Your illustrations have shown me some paths out of my box. BTW, I really enjoyed them as well.

Lessons learned:
 Seeing a relationship between focal length and weight is specious.
 My original question was about a larger hinge circle diameter; you showed an illustration of that. I was probably asking the wrong question.
 Any vibration at any magnification is an error that should be minimized if it cannot be eliminated.
 Even a common problem may be better served by a unique solution.
 I should also reconsider at what point a lens foot is an advantage.
 There are more lessons here to be seen later.

Consider if it is possible to leave out parts. For convenience a dovetail system is nice but not always cleaver or absolutely needed.
That is why I am curious about the "one piece apex conversion." Currently the head mounts to a disk with a groove around the periphery. The disk then attaches to the apex by three setscrews. It can be removed to allow a center column conversion. I wanted a one piece when I bought the tripod. Now, for an additional $100, I can have it.

Be aware of how and where you attach all of the elements of a 'tripod'

Camera and or lens
Lens Plate and or rail
Clamp
Head
Tripod top base
Legs, upper and lower
Feet
Ground

All of these parts and interfaces between these are more or less equally important for stiffness and vibrations.
Reading the line above reminds me, "removing the weakest link means the weakest link is somewhere else now."

So knowing a lens with a camera solidly attached is the important part, I ask myself how may it be held to allow best results. I use cameras with fitted AS style plates. I clamp them on a small ball head attached a tripod top base that has already been described. The head is screwed on and then locked with two setscrews from beneath. Improving the connection between the stem of the ball and the QR clamp would require a larger diameter stem.

I will change the feet, but the legs will have to serve for now.

Sam
Sam McMillan

basker

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Re: Tripod Apex question
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2018, 15:52:35 »
Les, I appreciate your input on this topic.

The camera generates vibrations when the mirror goes up and when the shutter opens.  The camera damps the vibrations arising in the mirror quite effectively, and in some cameras Nikon adds a tiny delay between mirror movement and shutter opening to allow the vibrations to decay, so mirror movement is not a big issue.

Yes, there is a difference between the sounds and vibrations of cameras I use. Seeing the improvement by using mirror delay prompted some changes. Now it is time to retest and see if there has been progress.

The tripod can affect vibrations arising in the camera only to the degree that the tripod and the camera are coupled - act as a single mass. 

That is exactly what I will be working on.

Sam
Sam McMillan

Steven Paulsen

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Re: Tripod Apex question
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2018, 19:12:58 »
Erik,

May I ask what model is your little, stubby Gitzo?
Many thanks on info provided in this thread. Myself.....I'm "breaking in," a new (old) 500mm/4p. It's almost satisfactory on my series 3, Gitzo. (An ancient, giant wingnut model.) I have physical difficulties & the "Wet Arsed" or stool approach, is my best consequence.

A buddy told me to try ("My gosh, I ain't that old") a box of "Depends." Pants get wet, arse stays dry.

The 500p is pretty darned sharp wide open, & getting a pretty good "Wow."

Erik Lund

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Re: Tripod Apex question
« Reply #49 on: April 26, 2018, 14:24:17 »
It's an old series 5 Gitzo about 150 Cm when legs are extended :)
Erik Lund

Steven Paulsen

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Re: Tripod Apex question
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2018, 19:24:05 »
Thanks Erik,

In error, I purchased a top plate for my aluminum systematic 3. (I didn't realize the 4 & 5's were so huge.) Without starting another thread, I have to ask a question or two.

On my 3 series aluminum, legs extended I rested my cheek on the top section and applied pressure. The legs flexed a bit. I recently purchased a Series 2, CF Gitzo, basically because it was  at a bargain price with an Arca, B1 head. (Yes, kinda' top heavy.) Anyway, I did the same cheek, stress test & the smaller CF, didn't flex near the same amount as the larger pod. Which is better?

I am well aware of the advantage of more weight, mass & usability of sturdy legs. In my case, I am only counting my blessings. I had a couple open heart catastrophic, (HeartMate I & II) surgeries. I hate to admit, but I have physical problems. My overall health is good. No machines except a pacer/defib.

I really need a strong pod that weighs nothing with matching bucket to sit on.

 8) <humor> :)