NikonGear

Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Jack Dahlgren on July 16, 2020, 00:21:21

Title: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on July 16, 2020, 00:21:21
Or at least considering it.
Since I got the Z6 I never feel the need to pick it up and it is feeling lonely on the shelf.
Usually I just keep everything forever, but it has some value now (~$1000) and maybe won't be as valuable in the future.

Anyone moved on from the Df and regretted it? Anyone who was happy they did?

I'd like to get it in the hands of someone who will use and appreciate it.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Birna Rørslett on July 16, 2020, 01:03:06
When I want to enjoy my photogrphy, I take the Df and a couple of manual lenses and leave the Z bodies at home. I can talk to that camera and it understands me.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Kenneth Rich on July 16, 2020, 06:39:16
My photography life has spanned seventy years and many cameras, but my Df is and will remain the most exciting camera of them all.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: John Geerts on July 16, 2020, 07:10:38
I sold my Df, and never looked back
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Fons Baerken on July 16, 2020, 08:44:05
I still have mine showing its plastics more and more :)
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Luc on July 16, 2020, 10:12:36
I couldn't get used to the handling of the Df so I sold mine. What I miss is the very nice rendering of the sensor of the Df. I now use a Z6 which suits me better, especially with longer lenses and manual focus.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Jakov Minić on July 16, 2020, 10:13:11
I think that it's good to get rid of stuff you don't appreciate, regardless of its value.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Airy on July 16, 2020, 13:18:55
I may switch to the Z6 (or 7) when following necessary conditions are both fulfilled:
1 eyesight goes down
2 bank account goes up

Meanwhile, I'm as happy as ever with the Df. May it last forever. I'd buy yours as a backup, but condition 2 still applies.

Background info:
- I mostly use MF lenses, old or recent, size and weight being the main reason behind this choice;
- I am not allergic to electronic viewfinders.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on July 16, 2020, 16:37:07
I may switch to the Z6 (or 7) when following necessary conditions are both fulfilled:
1 eyesight goes down
2 bank account goes up

Meanwhile, I'm as happy as ever with the Df. May it last forever. I'd buy yours as a backup, but condition 2 still applies.


For me condition #1 was a big factor.
I put the DK-17M magnifier on the Df which helped, but focusing is so much easier with the advantages that EVF provides. Viewfinder magnification is so useful, but occasionally I use focus peaking as well.

Hope condition #2 comes true for you!
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: PeterN on July 16, 2020, 16:49:33
I think that it's good to get rid of stuff you don't appreciate, regardless of its value.

I totally agree. The funny thing is that I am considering to add a Df because of its unique output with the right lenses.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Jacques Pochoy on July 16, 2020, 17:54:02
I guess I'm in the same boat as Airy  ;)
I'm still loving my Df as a "no brainer" camera ! I guess that if I do progress in photography I might "need" a Z one day, but for now it fulfills  all I need from it.
When I do the semestrial shots for my school of architecture (about 1500 shots per event) of various events, expositions, jury results, famed visitors for conferences, it goes easily on one battery (though I have one more, just in case). All that in not so good light and mixed lighting...
Most of those pictures are either for the web site or for prints (school schedules, leaflets, year books, etc.). While I'm not shooting by the hip, I need to be quick to capture a position, an emotion. The Df's simplicity allows it, and the files are great !

It's small enough, and surprisingly my best shots are with MF AI-s lenses, even though I now wear glasses for reading or computer work. For practical purposes, I often use the G lenses or zoom (as the 24-120mm f/4). I recently bought, second hand, the 60mm Micro AFS-G, and it's becoming one of my favorite (between 50mm and 85mm).

So I'm not parting with the Df... Yet  ;D
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Steven P. on July 29, 2020, 20:24:48
In the older days, I've owned a 6006, 8008, N90s film cameras. All 3 were regrettable purchases and I fell more in love with my old Nikkormat and mf lenses.


The Df is a mixed bag of features  and issues, not all are good. The however is I doubt there will be a V2 and  I enjoy the method more than the results.


My only real complaint, the "Digital F," is not on par with the old manual focus bodies, build wise. (I am older and the Df helped create a spark, allowing myself to joke that I am 30 years younger.)


All Tog's are fickle. Follow your heart and enjoy.
 :)
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Chris Dees on July 30, 2020, 13:52:50
I've always been very happy with my Df, but never used it after I got my Z6. So I sold it a few months later.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: richardHaw on July 30, 2020, 16:29:20
its hard to replace the Df. such a practical camera  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Birna Rørslett on July 30, 2020, 19:23:41
If anything, my acquisition of the entire line of Z models has demonstrated that the Df still is my most enjoyable camera. I'll stick to it for the remaining cmaera life it holds.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Hugh_3170 on July 31, 2020, 09:46:36
I have not priced a second hand Df, but there should be some good ones on te second hand market with all of these tradeins.  ;D

Back in February before the COVID lock downs there were a couple of new Pandsa versions in a reputable camera shop in Melbourne.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on August 01, 2020, 18:19:31
I have not priced a second hand Df, but there should be some good ones on te second hand market with all of these tradeins.  ;D

Back in February before the COVID lock downs there were a couple of new Pandsa versions in a reputable camera shop in Melbourne.

Used models seem to be going for somewhere around USD $1000-1250.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: MILLIREHM on August 02, 2020, 00:06:26
Currently i am not considering of getting rid of my Df. The Z6 is a fine add-on to my SLRs but not a replacement. This includes the Df which is very suitable for workling with (small) MF lenses. It has a few little downsides though:

The front wheel has been placed suboptimal (sacrificed to design reasons - there was a Df2 design study that had changed that but we probably wont ever see a Df2) and it is too hard. As a result Iam hurting my finger (even when not using the wheel ) just from carrying the camera especially with a tele lens.

When using MF (or AF-lenses with aperture ring) i am operating the aperture ring. Sometimes i am mixing in some G or E lenses so for the mods I am using (A and sometimes M) i have to use the wheel but the aperture settings cant be changed to full-stop increments- i am considering this a nuissance (it is the same with the Z6 which only allows to switch between 1/3 or 1/2 stops).


BTW.: What I am regretting somewhat is my impatience to take the chrome version that was available after having ordered a black one and waited for weeks for delivery without any perspective when and whether at all it will show up. Finally It came to my dealer a week after I have finally decided not to wait any longer and take the Chrome Df
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Airy on August 02, 2020, 01:01:04
I almost never use the front wheel, it sucks.

My biggest issue is with the exposure compensation, which I use very often, and that cannot be changed with one finger (lock button is a nuisance).

Otherwise, a fine camera... and yes, I prefer black.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: John Geerts on August 02, 2020, 21:36:24
Used models seem to be going for somewhere around USD $1000-1250.
Sold mine for Euro 1.400  a year ago.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Imagelover on August 02, 2020, 21:40:15
At the moment I'm not yet into mirrorless. I have many of the old manual focus Nikkors, both non-AI, AI and AIS. To me the Df is the camera to those lenses. I have no intention to leave the Df behind, and really love to use it often. But for many of the AI and AIS lenses I want to try to use the D810 more (together with the D3, D3X and D7100). The picture is taken with the Df and an Ai Nikkor 55mm f/1.2 (aperture 8) some days ago last week.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on August 03, 2020, 17:11:53
At the moment I'm not yet into mirrorless. I have many of the old manual focus Nikkors, both non-AI, AI and AIS. To me the Df is the camera to those lenses. I have no intention to leave the Df behind, and really love to use it often. But for many of the AI and AIS lenses I want to try to use the D810 more (together with the D3, D3X and D7100). The picture is taken with the Df and an Ai Nikkor 55mm f/1.2 (aperture 8) some days ago last week.

I too have mostly old manual focus Nikkors, but find the Z6 to work with them even better than the Df at least for ease of focusing and for adding stabilization. I encourage you to give it a try sometime.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Luc on August 03, 2020, 18:18:25
At the moment I'm not yet into mirrorless. I have many of the old manual focus Nikkors, both non-AI, AI and AIS. To me the Df is the camera to those lenses. I have no intention to leave the Df behind, and really love to use it often. But for many of the AI and AIS lenses I want to try to use the D810 more (together with the D3, D3X and D7100). The picture is taken with the Df and an Ai Nikkor 55mm f/1.2 (aperture 8) some days ago last week.
Beautifully bright and colourful image.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Imagelover on August 03, 2020, 21:38:42
Thanks, Luc!
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Steven P. on August 04, 2020, 04:35:32
I should have already said this.


If Nikon sold a basic/FM, type DSLR that didn't have a focus motor, but included an Ai ring, I would have purchased it. I progressed through many black bubble bodies. (And still have and shoot a few.)


The Df is a really fun camera with a sack of old or new glass. Wish I could find a cheap spare.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: MILLIREHM on August 04, 2020, 16:23:28
Adding mechanical readouts the AI-S features would indeed have been nice.

It would also have been an Improvement if the Kit lens came with an aperture ring
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Lorne on August 04, 2020, 23:51:40

Since I got the Z6 I never feel the need to pick it up and it is feeling lonely on the shelf.

My Df did the same for my D200, but I'm not so sure that I'll feel as ruthless when I eventually replace my Df.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Lorne on August 04, 2020, 23:52:52
I still have mine showing its plastics more and more :)

Think of it as patina. I hear that makes all sorts of antiques more valuable  ;)
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Akshay on August 05, 2020, 06:00:02
For what it is worth, i did sell my Df in March this year to buy the Z6 and i instantly regretted it.

I miss the colour and image feel out of it especially with Ai glass and also find manual focus was easier with the green dot and arrows on my toddler. With the Z6 peaking is hit or miss and zoom in to focus is not as quick as it seems. I prefer using auto focus lenses on it. I also feel i need to constantly edit my images compares to the Df which usually got skin tones spot on or with minor changes to wb.

Anyway i m now looking for a well kept Df to buy and use alongside my Z6.

Hope this helps anyone sitting on the fence.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Airy on August 05, 2020, 08:18:27
Would fine-tuning of the color profile help ?
With the Df, it is true that I never felt like changing the balance, opposite to the D800 for instance.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: PeterN on August 05, 2020, 09:03:37
Beautifully bright and colourful image.

I fully agree with Luc. Wonderful and colorful.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: PeterN on August 05, 2020, 09:05:43
Would fine-tuning of the color profile help ?
With the Df, it is true that I never felt like changing the balance, opposite to the D800 for instance.

Interesting. What raw converter did/do you use?
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Airy on August 05, 2020, 11:56:36
With the D800, I used Lightroom + a custom profile.
Since I use the Df, I mostly use Capture NX-D and need tune nothing, except monitors that are usually too warm.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Birna Rørslett on August 05, 2020, 12:14:58
The Df NEFs rarely need extensive post-processing. Mostly I just do a slight noise reduction if shooting at high ISO settings. The colours are "spot on" either with Photo Ninja or NX-D. In fact, one is getting a little spoiled by the camera output.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Imagelover on August 05, 2020, 13:20:27
Thanks, PeterN.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: PeterN on August 05, 2020, 15:53:16
The Df NEFs rarely need extensive post-processing. Mostly I just do a slight noise reduction if shooting at high ISO settings. The colours are "spot on" either with Photo Ninja or NX-D. In fact, one is getting a little spoiled by the camera output.

With the D800, I used Lightroom + a custom profile.Since I use the Df, I mostly use Capture NX-D and need tune nothing, except monitors that are usually too warm.


Thank you. That is good to know. I switched to Capture One and noticed quite a difference with LR. Is it possible to send me a df raw file (eg via PM) to check the difference? Please ignore if I am asking too much.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Airy on August 05, 2020, 16:10:16
I can send you a download link to raw files.What kind of subject(s) ?
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: PeterN on August 05, 2020, 16:31:03
I can send you a download link to raw files.What kind of subject(s) ?

Whatever you like and is representative of the Df’s capabilities w.r.t. color rendering
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Akshay on August 05, 2020, 16:34:29
I only use Capture NX-D.

For the Df, i had custom WB with a magenta bias as I felt auto wb was a giving be a slight green tint and my picture profile was set to Portrait. With the NEFs i just adjusted the WB if required and added a marginal S curve or bit more contrast to the skin occasionally.

Now i can't match the output of the Z6 portrait  profile with Df portrait profile. Z6 has a yellow bias i feel.As a result i m constantly cooling wb down a bit more to get rid of the yellow tint in skin and skewed the tint in profile colour towards red. In the end, I made peace with it and was okay with where i got to by just adjusting the profiles and would say it is good enough but not magical like the Df.  :)

Major disclaimer here - My focus of comparison has been skin tones and that of my pet subject - my toddler.

Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: chambeshi on August 12, 2020, 16:12:11
Considering the camera was designed to reflect the guild of much loved SLRs of the 1980s etc (FM2, FE2, FA, F3 etc), then where was the split K-type focusing screen? At least it could have been sold as an accessory. The 3rd party option was/is not cheap and was a mission to get. I also found the front control dial weird. At the price most punters expected more modern features for their money, notably the AF engine. There are other conspicuous features missing/wrong on the Df, which is why I sold mine to fund a Z7. 

There is a lot Nikon got right in the Df, however. My Df served me well, including for wildlife photography in poorer light. Since 2014 (in my case circa 2016) a Used Df is still the most cost effective means to shoot with a D4 sensor, which has seriously underrated IQ IME. And the AF worked in most scenes but became increasingly shown up by newer DSLRs. However, this goes to show how almost all modern cameras work well in most situations, especially with experience going back well into the film era. With recent introductory discount, I invested in a D780 primarily for its Z6 sensor, which is excellent for lowlight up to ISO 12800, and also works well in silent-shooting.

As many agree, the camera has its fans but here again with a promising product, it's clear Nikon did not listen let alone respond timeously with a refined upgrade of the Df. This interview suggests Mr Goto believed he knew best, unfortunately
https://nikonrumors.com/2017/09/15/new-interview-with-tetsuro-goto-from-nikon-full-frame-is-the-trend-if-nikon-will-go-mirrorless-it-must-be-full-frame.aspx/

If you have access to Nikon Owners Magazine (No 66, 2019) they published a long interview with Goto-San [PDF attached], around his retirement in June 2019. Goto confirmed the Nikon Df stands as his personal project "My favourite camera is the Nikon Df. My thoughts were what sort of camera would I want to buy and own for myself? So I designed, planned and persuaded many of our staff members to [create] the Df. That is why I like the Df so much; it is my favourite!"
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Bill De Jager on August 12, 2020, 21:58:29
Supposedly Nikon had planned a Df2 but then reallocated those resources to the Z camera development. Given the severe contraction of the camera market and Nikon's lateness in developing serious mirrorless cameras, this was probably something where they really had no choice at that point.  Actually, they did have the choice to make serious mirrorless cameras earlier, before their sales went down so much, and that would have given them more leeway in allocating some funds to side projects like a Df2.

I'd love to see an F3-sized Df2 with manual focus only and a monochrome 24MP sensor (backlit but no PDAF pixels), but I don't expect to ever see that happen.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: RobOK on August 15, 2020, 18:32:03
Keeping mine, but then I still have d70s too!!

How about a Zf Nikon??
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: CS on August 15, 2020, 20:19:24


I'd love to see an F3-sized Df2 with manual focus only and a monochrome 24MP sensor (backlit but no PDAF pixels), but I don't expect to ever see that happen.

How many such hobbled bodies do you think Nikon would sell light of current fodies having the ability to be operated manually, and produce monochrome images as well? Nobody is being forced to use AF, or shoot color, AFAIK, or did I miss something? 
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: MILLIREHM on August 15, 2020, 22:07:11
The only reason for a native monochrome- Sensor would be better sharpness, contrast (like Leica is claiming for its M Monocrom)

For me a Zf would not make sense, because the Df's niche is also a question of style - and its a retro style linked to SLR
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: CS on August 15, 2020, 22:24:25
The only reason for a native monochrome- Sensor would be better sharpness, contrast (like Leica is claiming for its M Monocrom)

For me a Zf would not make sense, because the Df's niche is also a question of style - and its a retro style linked to SLR

I see, thanks.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Bill De Jager on August 16, 2020, 00:38:05
How many such hobbled bodies do you think Nikon would sell light of current fodies having the ability to be operated manually, and produce monochrome images as well?

Which is why I suggested we'll never see such a thing.  The market isn't there to support the R&D cost or even fixed manufacturing costs. Leica can do it as a vanity project for sales to the rich, but any sensible company operating in the normal interchangeable-lens camera market wouldn't.

Nobody is being forced to use AF, or shoot color, AFAIK, or did I miss something?

The point would be a smaller and simpler body, and a specialized sensor as noted by MILLIREHM. With a monochrome sensor the raw files can be processed without the interpolation and blurring inherent in demosaicing.  That allows you to get the full resolution possible from a given array of pixels, unlike any color sensor (other than the Foveon from Sigma). You can actually purchase cameras modified to have a monochrome sensor from maxmax.com but they are very expensive.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: chambeshi on August 16, 2020, 11:21:38
Nikon has had its ups and downs in the ILC industry. The company has demonstrated impressive resilience. Nikon recently stated they are concentrating on the higher-end ie more profitable hobbyist and Pro markets with respect to the ILC market. So we should not underestimate the potential for future cameras designed to tempt the upgrader, and attract a switch across brands :D

It's instructive to consider, for example, the poor representation of the F system among Pros at the Beijing Olympics (2008), which  then recovered significantly by London 2012. To quote from a 2014 interview with Hidehiko Tanaka [see pdf],  then President of Nikon UK in 2014 (he's moved to run Nikon Thailand since):

“The Beijing Olympic Games, held in 2008, had been far from a success for Nikon in terms of their representation among the ranks of professional photographers, so in his role as worldwide head of NPS, the pressure to reverse the situation at the 2012 Games was enormous…. Opening ceremony of London 2012 more than 55% of the accredited professional photographers at the Games were using Nikon equipment.”
“As I have this sort of background, I believe I have a better understanding of the needs of photographers and of course I have very good connections to our headquarters, which enables me to pass on information to the relevant people. Luckily I have a very strong NPS team here in the UK and as I speak English I am able to communicate with both them and the professional photographers we support, so I receive direct feedback. When I was head of NPS in Japan we had regular meetings with professionals to discuss our products and seek ways of improving them. This is how features such as Ethernet connections and wireless transmission came about and, if you think of the size of the WT-4 Wireless Transmitter and then the much smaller size of its successor, the WT-5, this is one example of the progress such collaboration can deliver.”

However, the dialogue with established photographers could be broadened and consolidated - above all to be institutionalized firmly with the established channel to submit reasoned requests and constructive criticism. It is far too ad hoc and localized (the regional websites confirm this persisting problem with the company). Cliquey in fact, and subject to the whims/climate of regional initiatives.

Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Akshay on September 03, 2020, 11:18:11
I was walking by a camera shop with its depressed sales staff hanging around with no customers and frankly given how the retail economy is doing, perhaps last few months of existence as a business. 
Out of interested I asked about Nikon Df stock. They did have 1 set and at a price even lower than I had bot it 2 years ago ( and foolishly sold 5 months ago). To put in perspective it was few 100 $ above great condition used bodies. So i bought it! Now i m happy again.

Using both the Df and Z6 now and have started to appreciate the Z6 a little bit more too. But that Df sensor is so sublime.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Kenneth Rich on September 09, 2020, 17:05:17
Akshay's comment on saying goodbye to the Df is now a week old and the latest reply to any comment on CAMERA TALK, and I am wondering if the inaction is because everyone is out waving goodbye to the dear old Df.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Birna Rørslett on September 09, 2020, 17:22:42
Lots of other commitments, but those do not include waving 'goodbye' to the Df .... It sits silently and patiently waiting for me to get through the publishing chores that bog me down at present. So I promised it a spin in the weekend.
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on September 09, 2020, 22:32:04
I was actually out last night with the Df, for som blue hour and night shots. ( I also used my Z6  8) )
But get less use after the Z6 entered the house, is is easy to use with MF Nikkors, but the Df, is way more compact with the same lenses ;)
Title: Re: Saying goodbye to Df...
Post by: Airy on September 09, 2020, 23:40:44
145 shots with the Df since Sept. 1st, despite my nearly permanent confinement... another thread coming up.