NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: RobOK on April 19, 2020, 03:17:25
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I still do BBAF on my Z6. This article has an interesting discussion!
https://backcountrygallery.com/has-mirrorless-killed-back-button-af/
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A bit of a click bait title.
As he says "Of course, some people just like the ergonomics of it better"
Half the time I manual focus anyway
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IMHO mirrorless certainly in the form of the Z6/7 has if anything enhanced BBAF! The mirrorless cameras I have owned(Fuji x 2, Lumix G9 and now the Nikon Z6. If you don’t want to BBAF then turn it off and revert to the shutter button AF. It seems to me to be ones mindset that gets in the way! Personally it doesn’t come easy to me, but then I’m an old curmudgeon set in his ways, but I really am trying, honestly. :)
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I hadn’t realised that BBAF was so musical! :)
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I'm using the "back button" (ie., AF-ON) all the time on my Z- and F-mount cameras. Must have followed that practice for decades.
FYI: I altered the original thread title from "Bach" to "Back". Just to avoid the thread to drift off. Less "musical", but more to the point. And I do love Bach and his music myself.
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I'm using the "back button" (ie., AF-ON) all the time on my Z- and F-mount cameras. Must have followed that practice for decades.
FYI: I altered the original thread title from "Bach" to "Back". Just to avoid the thread to drift off. Less "musical", but more to the point. And I do love Bach and his music myself.
You’re quite right Birna, I just thought it a little amusing, and I’m easily amused!
Your comment re using BBAF for decades, hits the nail on the head, do something for decades and you get accustomed to the practice. Surely a matter of self training?
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It has proven itself over the years as the best practice. Not really that complicated.
Amusement in these C-19 times can be a scarce commodity. True. Thus I gave the matter some consideration before correcting the original typo. I contribute enough typos myself :).
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I have only skim read the article, but he seems to ignore one of the main benefits of BBF, which is the ability to switch between locked focus and focus tracking at the touch of the thumb. This is particularly useful with wildlife and sport, where the target is still at one moment and in action a moment later.
Also, if he can move the focus point to track a bird's eye as its head moves, he has remarkable skills.
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... Also, if he can move the focus point to track a bird's eye as its head moves, he has remarkable skills.
He must be out of a younger 'gamer' generation :o ;D
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Do you mostly use single AF point and then move around with this single point and place it where focus should be or do you use AF area mode to let the camera select where it thinks focus should be?
What about priority when trigger is pressed? I guess when you have the BB set to focus you have not prioritized focus on release bottom?
I can see my D5200 is set to AF-A so a mix between AF-S and AF-C.
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I was the OP of the link... I stay mostly with BBF. But I do think its always good to challenge our practices and not just do it because we always have!
I spent the weekend trying to get the hang of Area AF with tracking on the Z6. I mapped the "subject selection" to FN2 which is a better location. I find the Z6 with firmware v3 does a great job tracking but it is still hard for me to "let it track" on its own (this is not a Z6 comment, i just have not used AF tracking on any of my cameras).
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I've never been a dedicated sports/wildlife shooter, so never felt BBAF useful or handy. :o :o :o
I've dedicated my thumb for AF point selection since the film AF camera days and focused by half-pressing the release button...
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I do sports photography, but as everting is moving, using BBAF I would have to press two buttons to keep the object in focus, so never really found my way into using BBAF. I have tried, but I fail ???, so doing like Akira.
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But I do think its always good to challenge our practices and not just do it because we always have!
I agree with this. I have recently discovered shooting by touching the LCD screen on the intended point of focus. Very useful when the camera is on a tripod, and in many other circumstances where using the LCD is more practical than the EVF.
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Totally misleading, there are reasons to use BBF (or not to use it) but that does not change with mirrorless.
The main reason not to use BBF is that it needs substantial training, which made me reluctant first to use it until I was able to automatize it. With my SLRs i usually have individual configuration for slow operatoins and high-speed AF situations. Originally the first was still being set to shutter release Af- activation but in the meantime I am solely relying on BBF for best control. Iam using AF-C only (and if the camera is offering Iam deactivating AF-S completely so i cannot accidentially switch in the wrong mode). With BBF i can quickly control whether the AF is on or not, so I can more easily avoid AF focus hunting caused by obstacles like leaves and such and I can do manual overrides at any time, otherwise the override mode that makes AF-S lenses so advantageous is overriding me again. AF-lock buttons do not work for me, even more so the buttons on the lens i have found to be unreliable.
I am working in single field mode mostly and with PV button configured to switch to group mode. Having the camera to chose AF Field and this 3d Stuff might work for sports but not for birds in flight. Yes i have to switch my thumb between af field choice and AF activation but if I have to be really fast there is no time for carefully chosing the perfect af- field, i either preselect and then hold AF or decide to keep the focussing and adjust composing afterwards. Having a greater AF-field coverage of the frame does not change that for me. If there is enought time (like a sitting owl) there is no problem with BBF either
What is different between SLR and mirrorless? Mirrorless AF fields covering a greater area, and are not on par with af speed and reliability (at least with Nikon Z, dont knowhow evolved Sonys A9 actually is. I see no need to change my habits with the Z6 in terms of BBF/AF-ON button
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The main reason for using BBF to me is that it allows me not having to switch between AF-S and AF-C. Setting the camera to AF-C and push the back button once is like using AF-S. When I keep the back button pressed, I have AF-C. Quite useful when you shoot various objects/subjects.
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After reading the article once again I find the title even more misleading. Mr Steve Perry himself has not switched technique himself but just thought that shutter release AF in combination with simultaneousely chosing AF field by thumb might be more advantageous in combination of higher Af-field overage of the frame with the Z system.
I'd like to say that besides switching AF field ist not amongst what I'd call fast operation and a high number AF fields does not make it better, still dont see this as a game changer. Neither the main control dial nor the Subcontrol button are perfect tools for fast purposes, and i consider my D700 to have a better control ergonomy than the D4S that came afterwards. Thus I consider focussing and (slight) reframing to be faster.
What would bedifferent if the AF-field choice can be made by eye-view angle (Canon implemented this once but I cant remember that this had been considered as advanced enough to work). Recently eye detection AF works for human beings and for pets. Maybe in the future a more advanced eye detection system that can handle eyes of birds and other widlife creatures might turn automatic AF-field choice to a means of choice.
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I found this theme potentially interesting, but not as informtive as I might have wished.
as a constant, but somewhat dissatisfied user of manual lenses on the olympus penF I have been considering the Z as a better alternative and I have examined the risk of inadvertently pressing buttons on the Z that might interfere with manual focussing and light metering.
The penF has a wheel at the back that cannot be disabled (Short of using superglue and losing all opportunities to reach menu settings).
The problem is that when takoing a strong grip to steady a long and heavy lens like the 400mm ED-IF (with a speed-booster= effective 280mm, so still hand-holdable with sensor stabilization), the control wheel is pressed and moves the focus point. When both the spotmetering + enlarged focus point where the focus ahs been set is moved, reframing is bound to fail.
On inspecting the bodies in the local photo shop, I found that the Z has a similar suspicious-looking wheel ready to be squashed, as did the panasonic. the only body free of potentially disastrous buttons was the Leitz- Panasonic clone SL2, but that costs twice as much as the Z.
p.
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NIkon SLRs have a Lock option for the main AF-field dial (occasionally i am running into having accidentially locked it!) this is not present with the Nikon Z-series. The touch-display functions can be de-activated in the menu.
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The problem is that when takoing a strong grip to steady a long and heavy lens like the 400mm ED-IF (with a speed-booster= effective 280mm, so still hand-holdable with sensor stabilization), the control wheel is pressed and moves the focus point. When both the spotmetering + enlarged focus point where the focus ahs been set is moved, reframing is bound to fail.
On inspecting the bodies in the local photo shop, I found that the Z has a similar suspicious-looking wheel ready to be squashed, as did the panasonic. the only body free of potentially disastrous buttons was the Leitz- Panasonic clone SL2, but that costs twice as much as the Z.
p.
I use manual lenses, including the 400mm P.C Auto (Similar to your 400) on the Z6 with no issue of turning any control wheels. Your grip for long lenses should be the lens itself, let the camera hang off the back.Even on shorter lenses though I have not inadvertently turned any of the control wheels.
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yes I agree that heavy lenses should not be suppeorted by the camera alone, but a two-point steadying support is better than one and the body is more stongly squeezed when focussing , especially with the feather-light touch necessary for Nikon Internally focussing optics. One should have thought that introducing a firmware tweak to allow setting the switches to "do nothing" would have been easy, but Olympus has so far not made any efforts to remedy this fault..
I find that muy heavy Angenieux, Leitz and Zeiss lenses require less of a camera squeeze since their focussing implies a supprorting grip on the lens.
The problem on the pen F is not turning the "wheel", but squeezing it that activates one of the four switches inside. Touch screens provide no antidote and remain useless for anyone with less than three arms. On the Pen F they can be turned in so as not to eat batteries and interfere with the actual activity of snapping pictures.
So, furtheer to the thread theme of "focussing and back buttons" ;can the rear of the Z be made totally immune to any kind of push influencing focussing? -Its front buttons I understand to be harmless and useful.
p.
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yes I agree that heavy lenses should not be suppeorted by the camera alone, but a two-point steadying support is better than one and the body is more stongly squeezed when focussing , especially with the feather-light touch necessary for Nikon Internally focussing optics. One should have thought that introducing a firmware tweak to allow setting the switches to "do nothing" would have been easy, but Olympus has so far not made any efforts to remedy this fault..
I find that muy heavy Angenieux, Leitz and Zeiss lenses require less of a camera squeeze since their focussing implies a supprorting grip on the lens.
The problem on the pen F is not turning the "wheel", but squeezing it that activates one of the four switches inside. Touch screens provide no antidote and remain useless for anyone with less than three arms. On the Pen F they can be turned in so as not to eat batteries and interfere with the actual activity of snapping pictures.
So, furtheer to the thread theme of "focussing and back buttons" ;can the rear of the Z be made totally immune to any kind of push influencing focussing? -Its front buttons I understand to be harmless and useful.
p.
I'm not sure why you are concerned about focus button pressing when you are using manual focus lenses. There are 10 different buttons/controls + touch screen on the back. All of them can not be turned off. However, it is only the focus point selector which might be a problem for you. You can have it recenter based on a quick press. There is plenty of room on the back of the camera to hold it with the ball of your thumb and not press any buttons. The memory card door has a lump on it which engages the thumb and provides a good grip.
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Sir,
thanks for considering this exotic conundrum. Usually when I take a photo I do not wish to press any buttons beyond the shutter release-To faff around with various gimmicks while focussing and not being certain of where in the frame the measurement is taken is distracting. I have had several shots ruined for this reason. Almost as evil as constant aujtofocus.-
The focus and spot metering point should stay in the middle, not have to be returned to its proper place while in the process. Worry that a firm grip on the body will shange settings needing additional key presses is the reason I wish to make certain that this can be avoided.
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Here is a link to a similar thread on the same topic
https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=9576.msg160934#msg160934 (https://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=9576.msg160934#msg160934)
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Thanks for the link, In the meantime I have acquired a Z7 and discovered that its abundance of useless features does include easily mis-pressed buttons. I never use autofocus since I do not believe in getting sharp twigs behind or in front of the subject matter, nor in pushing various buttons instead of focussing (a legacy of long time use of manual film based equipment.
The other day I tried my somewhat heavy Angenieux 180mm and discovered that while supporting the weight by the lens and focussing plus gripping the camera, the viewfinder was disturbed by the "i" button options (I perefer the uncluttered original Leica SL2 viewfinder minus its speed listing), also the little joystick had managed to move the enlargement point to the edge of the frame.
It seems that the only measure that can help is a drop of superglue on the offending knobs. Luckily they will not affect the usefulness of the Z for ordinary still-photos.
One might ask, why get a Z7 and not use its exravagant features? The answer is that nothing else gives 40Mpx + enables good use of most kinds of manual optics.
p.
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Reprogramming some of these "useless" buttons to put the focus point to the centre of the frame might help?
I agree that one should be able to lock the focus point, but having an easily accessible reset is the next better solution.
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,,,
One might ask, why get a Z7 and not use its exravagant features? The answer is that nothing else gives 40Mpx + enables good use of most kinds of manual optics.
p.
Obviously a Leica M 10 R would fit you needs much much better. Oh well,,,
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Funny
My SLRs have a lock-lever for disabling accidentially moves of the focus point- frequently i ran intoaccidentially locking it but rarely accidentially moving the focus field.
With the Z6 lacking a locking feature it frequently happens to me. appears to be the same with Mk II versions.
I think Nikon should do a firmware upgrade allowing just to disable these controls - should be easily doable
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I think we all can agree that this locking feature should be easy to implement by firmware. Probably we just have to continue to complain preferably through NPS or other entities connected to the mothership.
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Sugestions ad the leitz M type above fail to convince me.The simplicity of just setting time, aperture and distance is appealing and seeing not just a bright frame but also what is outside the frame can be useful especially as with the M3 where one could keep both eyes open while framing and having the frame "suspended in mid air".-- not so easy with the more recent finder magnifications.
Although my M-6 has done good service for many years, their optics are compact and first class The camera body is virtually indestructible despite having experienced rain and snow. However my various non Leitz lenses , even my leicaflex ones, will not couple to the rM angefinders, and I dislike focussing via a rear screen, As for the current "visoflex" I much prefer the exceedingly bright and accurate original but for its bulk and long register distance The ugly bump electronic VF of the Nikon hinders putting it into a big pocket but at least it will not fall off or break- In addition Leitz´ spares policy sice they sold off all Leicaflex and Leicina parts to one repairer and kept none themselves, fails to convince, While years ago I was very impressed by Nikon finding a replacement rear element for my 21mm viewfinder decades after it went out of production. So a firmware change or superglue remains the best option.
p.
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It may perhaps be in order to reply to myself:
I have now struggled with various menu options and almost come to peace with the Z7.
Enclosed is an example of what I regard as proof of a step towards perfection in Nikon optics, where a close crop is more or less indistiguishable from a snap taken with a reasonably good much longer lens. The jpgs are absolutely untreated as they came out of the camera apart from cropping and resizing in order to fit within the forum image guidelines.
The strongly cropped orginal wider view was taken with Nikons 24-70 f4 at its longest setting while the less cropped one was taken with my Angenieux "DEM-APO" 180 f2,3 which at f5,6 usually gives quite sharp results./img][/img]
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The only thing which did not work here is actually managing to get the images included.
p.
Edit: I attached the files as received from Paul, in the order "70" and "180" respectively
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Use "Attachments" seen under the input text box.
The IMG tag will only work for remotely hosted images.
Edit: I got the "missing" files per e-mail and attached them to the original post.
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I am continuing to fill this thread, but this time ad the original topic.
Focus-point-stability is totally unreliable: back buttons cannot be made inoperative-
When fishing the camera out of a deep and roomy pocket and when focussing heavy mnanual optics, various buttons are easily pressed
so the focus point is inadvertently placed at gteh edge of the frame. The tiny joystick button will eventually return the focus point to the center, but that is one operation too much when trying to snap a picture rather than fiddling with finding the right spot at the rear of a recalcitrant camera .
Since software provides no relief I thought of supoerglue on the joystick as a permanent solution. However, it turns out that the wheel used to chose menu items also moves the focus point, so superglue is not a permanent solution and would remove the ability to replace the point quickly. However superglue for the "i" button to prevent filling up the viewfinder with extraneous noise remains an option.
The Nikon Z is not as bad as the Olympuses in moving the focus and spot-metering point since the postion of the hands in supporting and focussing heavy optics less easily presses the wrong buttons, but the Z is still not the answer to easy use of manual focussing optics, even with an open mind to perform the necessary surgery.
p.
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Forgive me if you have addressed this earlier but why not press the joystick to recentre the focus point as you raise the camera? After a while it would become as automatic as turning on the camera.
As for the "i" button, can it be reprogrammed to do the same thing? If so then accidentally pressing it would not bother you.
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sir,
a good alternative to superglue, but it is rather like a car that will start driving with its powersteering-wheels turned hard laft because you happened to touch the steering wheel, but behaving normally when you press the windscreen wiper button. Undoubtedly a good habit to get into each time one wishes to turn the ignition hkey, but something the software and cabling should take care of.
p.
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Paul, few people (withe exception of Nikon engineers, perhaps?) would argue the current operation of the Z-camera User Iinterface is perfect. However, idiosyncratic solutions are all over becoming part of our ecosystem these days, so one has to make do and learn to adapt (?).
Unfortunately, I cannot see that the "info" button can be reprogrammed. A pity. (checked on Z5/6, but probably Z7 behaves similar).
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I'm entirely ignorant of the operation of mirrorless Nikons, but did they disable the feature found on DSLR's in which you press the "OK" button to recenter the focus point? When I was using a D3200 with no lock, I often accidentally moved the focus point with handling, or with my nose, and got used to just automatically recentering it from time to time without even bothering to look. It seems pretty intuitive and, like using the back button itself, a habit that easily becomes automatic.
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I find Back Button Focus regardless of the camera type allows manual focus logic with auto focus speed and accuracy. I say logic but in a short time this logic becomes a reflex. With a manual focus camera and lens I focus, grip the lens such that I lock the focus ring and lens barrel together and shoot or I follow focus and shoot. With BBF I obtain focus and either release the AF-ON button to lock the focus or hold the AF-ON button for continuous focus. I don't see how it matters if the camera is mirrorless or an SLR. With BBF focus focus happens as a reflex just as manual focus happened with a manual focus SLR and lens.
If I'm missing something please let me know.
Dave
A major frustration with my Nikon F4s was the lack of an AF-ON button. I believe at the time Canon offered such a feature on their better models.
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Yes,thanks for well intended suggestions. Buttons and autofocus does work, but I use manual focus lenses which do not require any button pushing beyond 100% enlargement on the front F1, but the focus point has to stay centered without routine delays, so I repeaat my metaphor;
A car servosteering that veers unpredictably and strongly to the left unless you immediately touch the windscreenwiper switch is unnecessarily bothersome.
Even though software bugs and shortcomings are are common, such.engineer laziness as omitting a switchoff of this "feature" should be uprooted.
Luckily, my Angenieux , Zeiss and Leitz lenses have quite flat fields, so the focus point fault does not matter for landscapes at infinity, but yesterdays snaps of a tree could not benefit from that when the focus point was in the wrong place.
Trees do not walk away, so a bit of fumbling is inconsequential. Photograping stationary motives (even using the old trick of pre-focussing on a particular spot that something fast moving will pass) is perfectly compatible with buttonjuggling..
p.
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A major frustration with my Nikon F4s was the lack of an AF-ON button. I believe at the time Canon offered such a feature on their better models.
The F4 was a great camera but with a very rudimentary and not very sophisticated AF system - and yes something like AF-ON was badly missing. There was also no Menu where you could disable pressing down shutter release so implementing AF-ON would have required some other solution to switch
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I use Back button focus on mirror less very little,,,
However; The two front F1 and F2 function buttons have the worst 'tactile feedback' of any Nikon SLR/DSLR camera I have ever used.
They are mushy and wiggly - There is not clear reliable feedback at all unless i place my finger perfectly in the right position when activating them :o :o :o
On the other hand - I never activate any of the buttons of the Nikon Z7 by mistake with my fingers/hands - All buttons seems to be very well thought out, just not identical to the D850 so that is quite annoying, I also miss the illuminated top and rear buttons a lot!
The only real issue with accidental touching buttons is on the F5, my hands are so large that the palm of my hand activates the shutter button for the vertical shutter/AF button,,, cost me a lot of film rolls before I learned to be more aware of the handling.
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Finger (and hand) size must come into play as far as the handling of the Z cameras are concerned. Unlike Erik, I have no trouble with the F1/F2 buttons, but do unintentionally move the focus point around a lot. I programmed all candidate buttons with a "reset to centre" functionality, so the annoyance is largely circumvented, but of course is still lurking in the background as it were. I really wish the focus point could be easily locked.
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I only have trouble with the front buttons when using gloves, but that is unfortunate nearly 4 months per year ;)
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However; The two front F1 and F2 function buttons have the worst 'tactile feedback' of any Nikon SLR/DSLR camera I have ever used.
They are mushy and wiggly - There is not clear reliable feedback at all unless i place my finger perfectly in the right position when activating them :o :o :o
Tactile feel is so important. I want a nice crisp micro switch wherever possible. When I used wired remote release cables with my Nikons I modified the MC-12A cord to have a clean, almost zero backlash feel. That release used a crisp micro switch. It was great in the era. The Nikon MC-12B by contrast used a mushy sliding switch.Now I use a Phottix Strato II remote flash trigger as a radio shutter release. It has the clean micro switch I need as a test, open flash button.
I would hope Nikon designers and engineers would understand the need for a clean, crisp feel for all buttons on a camera. I guess not.
The only real issue with accidental touching buttons is on the F5, my hands are so large that the palm of my hand activates the shutter button for the vertical shutter/AF button,,, cost me a lot of film rolls before I learned to be more aware of the handling. The MC-12B was mushy by contrast. I think the MC-12B used a sliding switch. >:(
I remember having a Nikon MC-12A remote release cord accidentally set in the lock position. When I pressed the release on the MC-12A my F5 dutifully exposed all 36 frames of color slide film. Damn it happened so fast! I used Dymo label tape to disable the locking feature on the MC-12A so this never happened again. If memory serves me I used the MC-12A on my F4 and D2H with an MC-25 adapter.
Dave