NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Other => Topic started by: RobOK on July 27, 2015, 22:14:08
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Hello friends...
I have an older Manfrotto tripod that is nice but pretty heavy... it's probably about 8 years old. Is there a sweet spot of light weight, still sturdy support and not-break-the-bank price? Obviously there is no perfect product, but my current one is probably 20 lbs. (seems to be like a current 055 model, although I don't remember if that was the exact one). I am open to other brands. I don't go on long hikes, but want something that I could take around for half a day or so.
I thought this thread could be a good place to discuss Tridpod's, whether for my needs or other people too!
Cheers,
Rob.
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I get the tripod support required from the Sachtler range. They are light weight, sturdy, and extremely versatile. Not the cheapest choice, but then you need to factor in their longevity. I have Sachtlers that have served me for many decades and still continue to do their designated task.
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I agree with Bjørn R about the Sachtler. My primary tripod is the DA75L, it weighs 1,9 kilos without head. It is incredibly sturdy considering the size and weight. For hiking some people may find it a bit too long when collapsed (it has only two sections, part of the reason it is so stable). But it is possible to cut it to shorten it a little. The larger Sachtlers may be a bit too large and heavy for hiking half a day.
I also have a few Gitzos, but I don't trust them. They tend to fall apart pretty soon.
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There is another 3-sectioned version of the DA 75 that might be more transportable because of shorter overall length. Not checked stability though.
If you are a heavy tripod user, it is beneficial to have a selection of tripods optimised for different tasks.
Gitzos are very overrated. I don't like them.
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If you are a heavy tripod user, it is beneficial to have a selection of tripods optimised for different tasks.
So true. The Sachtler is my outdoor tripod, I use the Gitzos only indoors. I have the largest one, I think it is approx. 270 cm extended. I need a stepladder to reach the camera :)
I also have a Manfrotto with very similar design as the Sachtlers. A good tripod, but it is slightly more prone to vibrations than the DA75L.
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Well, I won't argue about the supremacy of Sachtler. But if you are on a budget, looking at Sirui carbon tripods would make sense. I played with some at large retailers here in Tokyo and thought they were made as good as Gitzo, Velbon or Slik equivalents but are much cheaper. Personally I'm looking at their monopod. My main tripod is Gitzo GT3530. No, I don't
abuse it as relentlessly as both Bjørn's. :D
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I'm a Cartoni believer...
And Gitzo series 3 for everything else (don't remember the number but it can reach 2,8m ::))
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I use a Gitzo GT3542LS and an Arca Z1 sp head most of the time. The combined weight is about 2.6kg.
I have a few other tripods as well which I use in special circumstances (e.g. when the tripod must fit cabin luggage, or must be tall enough to get to eye level when working in a slope).
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Priorities and features required change depending on what use the tripod sees. Using a Gitzo underwater is well-nigh impossible (I have tried). Most tripods are a nightmare in snow or mud. And so it goes.
As usual, testing provides the answers you require ... Most tripods can function "good enough" used indoors on a flat substrate, with very low weight attached to them, and mirror lock-up is engaged. Under real field conditions, they start to fall apart or prove to be not flexible enough.
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Well, I won't argue about the supremacy of Sachtler. But if you are on a budget, looking at Sirui carbon tripods would make sense.
Akira, are there certain models of Sirui you have looked at? That's a new brand for me...
EDIT: For reference, what i have now is:
Manfrotto 055xprob tripod
Manfrotto 488RC2 ball head
I am mainly looking to reduce weight (so I actually USE it more!)
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Akira, are there certain models of Sirui you have looked at? That's a new brand for me...
EDIT: For reference, what i have now is:
Manfrotto 055xprob tripod
Manfrotto 488RC2 ball head
I am mainly looking to reduce weight (so I actually USE it more!)
Rob, how about the carbon fiber tripods with "2204" in their model names? They are roughly Gitzo 3 series or Manfrotto 055 equivalents and weighs less than 2kg. They are 4-section tripods and there seems to be no 3-section ones, though:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_Sirui&ci=2636&N=4075788741+4167619192
The one I'm personally looking at is a monopod P-326. I checked out the real thing and thought it very well made.
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Priorities and features required change depending on what use the tripod sees. Using a Gitzo underwater is well-nigh impossible (I have tried). Most tripods are a nightmare in snow or mud. And so it goes.
As usual, testing provides the answers you require ... Most tripods can function "good enough" used indoors on a flat substrate, with very low weight attached to them, and mirror lock-up is engaged. Under real field conditions, they start to fall apart or prove to be not flexible enough.
Bjørn R, I remember the torture test very well (you had to rename the thread due to that tragic incident in Oslo). I wonder if the copy with the article still available. I couldn't find one when (or if) it was published...
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Akira: I still have the manuscript and illustrations but in Norwegian only.
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Akira: I still have the manuscript and illustrations but in Norwegian only.
I see, thank you. Could you disclose which one the winner was?
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Rob, how about the carbon fiber tripods with "2204" in their model names? They are roughly Gitzo 3 series or Manfrotto 055 equivalents and weighs less than 2kg. They are 4-section tripods and there seems to be no 3-section ones, though:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_Sirui&ci=2636&N=4075788741+4167619192
The one I'm personally looking at is a monopod P-326. I checked out the real thing and thought it very well made.
Yes, its interesting that you can use the center post of the 2204 model as a monopod. That could come in handy for me. I think this one is on the short list for what I have in mind.
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Rob, how about the carbon fiber tripods with "2204" in their model names? They are roughly Gitzo 3 series or Manfrotto 055 equivalents and weighs less than 2kg. They are 4-section tripods and there seems to be no 3-section ones, though:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_Sirui&ci=2636&N=4075788741+4167619192
The one I'm personally looking at is a monopod P-326. I checked out the real thing and thought it very well made.
Yes, its interesting that you can use the one of the legs of the 2204 model as a monopod. That could come in handy for me. I think this one is on the short list for what I have in mind.
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Akira: none of the tripods I tested would suffice to serve me, not even the Gitzo. There are a lot of drawbacks and toppling over is a death sin that might well end the life of most of these tripods. Carbon fibre is a more fragile material than most people realise. However, given a judicious and careful use pattern, the Benro and Induro models would be acceptable, the Gitzo passable, and the Manfrotto and Redged not acceptable at all.
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Rob: I note from the B+H pages that the Sachtler isn't listed as a tripod for photography. We see the same attitude over here as well. Even the maker consider them used for video and cine only. Hilarious as many nature photographers in my country use them. Sachtler has been the insider's tip for the last 30 years at least.
I commenced using Sachtlers in the '80s and never looked back. A few snaps from my younger days to underscore my point.
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Akira: none of the tripods I tested would suffice to serve me, not even the Gitzo. There are a lot of drawbacks and toppling over is a death sin that might well end the life of most of these tripods. Carbon fibre is a more fragile material than most people realise. However, given a judicious and careful use pattern, the Benro and Induro models would be acceptable, the Gitzo passable, and the Manfrotto and Redged not acceptable at all.
Well, you know, I wouldn't be surprised if no tested tripods would have fullfiled your requirement. But I was a little surprised to see the CF pipe cut across the diameter. I knew that th CF pipe is vulnerable when squeezed, which is why I've never used any kind of attachments using clamps for my Gitzo.
By the way, would Sachtler have survived the same torture test? I would think the need of spreader may be a hindrance when you have to work on the slippery ground or floor where the use of spikes isn't allowed.
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:P
I have to agree with Bjorn regarding water and Gitzo...
When such conditions are met I just use the Cartoni.
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Akira: my Sachtlers have toppled over and fallen to the ground more times than I care to remember, and nothing untoward has ever happened to any of them. I think their multiple-tube design helps a lot in avoiding breakage.
In the 'torture' test, we simulated such toppling incidents and counted how many times the test could be repeated before vital parts broke. Even the better tripods in that test didn't reach 10 times and most were pretty shabby after just a fall or two.
For indoors use, you need the ground spreader or the special "red sox" attachment you so often see on TV. Never had any issue out in the wide open without these auxilaries though, not even on ice. I have these items, of course. Just in case.
Under water, a Sachtler is just fine. It's easy to adjust the leg length too. A pro tripod has to serve when you need it. Putting it into mud, snow, or water is nothing special. Here is a snap of a female TV photographer I helped some years ago when NRK (Norwegian National Broadcasting) made a series from Norwegian RAMSAR sites. You will notice her Sachtler is submerged. Only the camera and part of the tripod head is above the water as the camera is not water-tight. She didn't hesitate a fraction of a second before setting up the tripod in this manner. That is food for thought.
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I have submerged my Sachtler in saltwater, mud, snow without problem, all the way up to the underside of the tripod head. Afterwards I just wash it in some fresh water, ususally I place it in a river or creek if avalable.
Two other advantages with the Sachtler is there is no lock or "stops" when spreading the legs, that makes it incredibly efficient in use. Two sharp steel spikes (angled differently) under each leg is also very helpful. Releasing or collapsing the leg does not require you to change the handgrip, it is done in one operation. The leg locks are far more reliable than the typical twist-locks.
This is the Sachtler "Spider" version :)
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Lightweight and sturdy for outdoor and indoor use but noncompact is the Linhof 3333. I have the black version
but there is a military olive version too. I use it with the Linhof 3D Neiger. List price for each of these is 450€
but it is possible to find a bargain on these online slightly used.
For light travel I still use the 190 Manfrotto since 1984. It does not extend a lot and is also not for big loads.
sachtler and berlebach I hear are good but I did not try these.
Talking sopport I love the IR release combined with MUP on newer Nikon bodies. Screw in cable releases can be very
uncomfortable esp the press and screw in very small spaces offered with some Nikons. MC36....
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A Sachtler is the perfect wading stick when you cross a torrential ice-cold river too (photo: Bjørn J. He had a laugh, I had to endure +4C water). Once over on the other side, just set it up and go on shooting as if nothing had happened ...
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A raft of Sachtlers set up and ready to capture the Venus Transit of 2004. Left to right ENG 2 CF, DA 100, DA 75.
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When I travel by car, I usually bring the 'king on the hill', the Sachtler ENG 2 CF HD and its Video 20 Fluid Head. It even dwarfs the sibling, the ENG 2 CF, yet still only weighs 4 kg and will easily support my more than ample body weight :D - a given choice when I work with really long lenses, from 800 mm and upwards.
The ENG 2 CF is just a little above 2 kg and if I remove the head it'll still fit a standard suit case. Thus this is my normal 'to-go' travel tripod when weight isn't the utmost concern. The smaller DA 75 [BR Edition] is just 1.2 kg so the one to take on long international flights.
Having such tremendously versatile and flexible tripods makes chores such as setting up an improvised UV studio in the rear of the car a breeze. The pied Palestine scarf actually acts as a wind-breaker so is an important component in the set up ... (another insider's tip).
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I remember almost all these images of tortured Sachtlers but thank you for the reminder.
I've played with a Sachtler with its unique speed lock and was fascinated by its accuracy and smoothness of operation. Yes, it is a professional tool.
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Yes indeed a professional tool. Factor in their extended longevity and the price might not be bad at all. We're talking of gear that goes on for decade after decade of frequent use. Only maintenance required is hosing down dirt, salt deposits, or mud when required, plus the occasional tightening of the connectors and bolts. If they are frequently used in water, change to stainless steel bolts or oil the bolts regularly.
However, don't think for once they were "abused" or "tortured". A tripod has to serve its purpose as a reliable support platform. It simply should work and once set up not to worry about. Nothing more and nothing less.
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I would say that a Series 5 Gitzo is indestructable. If you dont abuse it.
So obviusly your tets was with smaller flisy models.
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Series 3 Gitzo. Can't remember the model number now without pulling out the manuscript, though.
I know you use Gitzo (ser.5) Erik, but probably don't use it in water? That or ice/snow is a normal application for me. Last time I owned a Gitzo was in '79 or thereabouts. It lasted 10 months before it was damaged beyond repair, so just threw it away and got my first Sachtler instead. They have been with me since and seen far heavier use.
Before the Gitzo there was a couple of Manfrotto tripods (055 and 190). They lasted shorter than the Gitzo, the 190 didn't survive a 3 month summer stint.
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Bjørn, "torture" and "abuse" are purely rhetorical. :D But I would say that the description is not all that pointless. :P
I realized the prices of Sachtler you are using are not all that different from those of Gitzo 3 or larger models.
Also I realize that Sachtler DA75L is an aluminum tripod. Is this as sturdy and durable as other CF models you have been using?
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It is, but colder to operate in winter. Thus I prefer the CF models in the colder part of the year.
I think even the DA 75 now exists in a CF version. But I see no point in "upgrading" it after it has served me well for 30+ years. Besides, cutting down the tripod to make special versions is easier with the aluminium model.
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I think this smallest one is the BR special. I hope I'm allowed to use your image with the hope to be permitted after the fact.
The aluminum DA75 seems to be very affordable, but, yes, the aluminum tripod feels pretty cold even here in Tokyo. You would laugh, though.
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I'm just stating that I consider a Series 5 Gitzo indestructable unless you abuse it some how.
Gitzo now have a series for in water use, I have used mine in shallow waters also sea water, hard to avoid in Denmark, no problem.
And it is not related to how you used or 'tested' any smaller Gitzo series tripod... I can easily 'test' a Sachtler and it would never erect again...
I find a lot of twist in the smaller of the Sachtler designs, with the thin diameter sinle legs extended, quite obviusly not designed for big lens photography when fully extended.
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I have Gitzo 5 and 3-series, and they would certainly not survive the use (not abuse) outdoor photography in the conditions a tripod is supposed to be used, for me at least.
They are fair-weather tripods for use on dry, firm ground ;D
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I find a lot of twist in the smaller of the Sachtler designs, with the thin diameter sinle legs extended, quite obviusly not designed for big lens photography when fully extended.
I've also noticed that when I played with a Sachtler at a retailer, and mentioned that in Fotozone in the past. The upper double-pipe section is so rigid that all the torsional power seemed to be concentrated on the lowest single-pipe section. I though this is not good for video use especially when the camera is panned.
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Yes a problem when panning or wind from the side.
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Double-tube legs throughout is the better solution, but adds to weight and volume. The HD versions all are of this design.
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One thing is discussing the tripod legs and their stability or rigidity, but just as important is the head. I rarely use over 200mm lenses on my DA75L, but there is a huge difference in stability if I use my RRS BH-55 or my Acratech Ultimate ballhead.
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Big fan of my Gitzo GT3540LS, lightweight at 1.7Kg and very compact folded at 55cm which makes it easy to travel with.
I've used it in both salt and fresh water, doing so requires regular maintenance though by taking the tripod apart and giving it a nice soak in the bathtub to get the salt and the grid out.
Sachtlers don't need this type of care due to their open construction, so if submersing your tripod is regular thing the Sachtlers are the way to go, for all other applications the Gitzo's are more than adequate and more practical IMHO :)
Please be aware that professionals like Bjørn & Bjørn whom use their gear everyday in the most challenging settings have different requirements than the occasional nice weather only amateur users.
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Please be aware that professionals like Bjørn & Bjørn whom use their gear everyday in the most challenging settings have different requirements than the occasional nice weather only amateur users.
As the other Bjørn said, it's all about using the proper tool for the job. The 6 steel spikes on my Sachtler will ruin the floor indoors (I do not have the spreader or the red socks), that's why I use the Gitzos on indoor jobs. They are very stable and rigid (especially the 5-series), but for outdoor use in harsh conditions... well, we have plenty of very harsh conditions here close to the Arctic, and the Sachtler can cope with them.
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Big fan of my Gitzo GT3540LS, lightweight at 1.7Kg and very compact folded at 55cm which makes it easy to travel with.
I've used it in both salt and fresh water, doing so requires regular maintenance though by taking the tripod apart and giving it a nice soak in the bathtub to get the salt and the grid out.
Sachtlers don't need this type of care due to their open construction, so if submersing your tripod is regular thing the Sachtlers are the way to go, for all other applications the Gitzo's are more than adequate and more practical IMHO :)
Please be aware that professionals like Bjørn & Bjørn whom use their gear everyday in the most challenging settings have different requirements than the occasional nice weather only amateur users.
Yup, this is more "realistic" for us amateur photographers. :)
I love my GT3530L with its hub replaced with Markins TH-300.
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Not if you are on a budget. The Sachtler DA75 costs 360 USD at B&H, the Gitzo 3542LS costs 959 USD (both without head). The DA75 is a real bargain, it is a lot cheaper now than when I bought mine many years ago. For the price (or even a bit higher) you can not get better outdoor tripod legs, if you can live with the relatively long folded length. And the fact that aluminium gets very cold in the winter :)
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Some photographers prefer wooden tripods, as a well-made one can be very stable, and comfortable in the cold. There is also something about the "feel" of wood. But they tend to be a little on the heavy side, and slightly clumsy in use.
This one here is a genuine Norwegian tripod made by Gundersen & Løken, probably in the early 50's. It weighs 6-7 kilos, but it can take whatever storm and blizzard you can throw at it :)
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I'm using a Feisol CT-3401 and so far I've been pretty happy with it - it seems well made, robust and sturdy but I cannot offer any comparison with other similar brands.
http://www.feisoleurope.com/feisol-classic-tripod-ct3401-rapid-p-26.html
Is is light weight and I deliberately chose it without (optional) center column for extra stability and less weight/size - I'm not tall and with a head mounted the max height is fine. In windy conditions its light weight can become a drawback - that's an expected trade off.
I have a set of (optional) metal spikes for conditions like snow/ice and soft soil.
Until now it has survived both frost and moderate amounts of water but I assume it shares the same drawbacks as other CF tripods mentioned here.
To me this tripod was a sweet spot as for price, size, weight etc. - I think that e.g. Feisol's Tournament tripods offers more accessories but I went for one in the cheaper Classic series.
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About 35 years ago I picked up a couple of series 3 Gitzo Studex tripods (G320 & a G326 compact). They are still meeting my needs though they are not light. The compact needed surgery to get to ground level so I employed a hacksaw to the center column below the head. One of my friends who was also an photo enthusiast was somewhat taken back by my new go-to-ground tripod and asked "how could I do that to a Gitzo"? I think my reply was something close to "with not too much effort".
When (if) I finally wear them out I will look seriously at the Sachtler line.
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There were short posts available for those Gitzos, while they were still current models.
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The current Gitzo center column is designed so that you can remove the column part and connect the top plate and the bottom hook directly. I think this is also compatible with older models.
Also, Markins offers replacement kits which convert the center column style Gitzo to the one without the column:
http://www.markinsamerica.com/MA5/category.php?req=6
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The Sachtler DA75 are not too difficult to find second hand. Their design is very robust making it a rather safe purchase. If they are a bit cosmetically worn and are sold without head, they can even be had rather cheap.
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The current Gitzo center column is designed so that you can remove the column part and connect the top plate and the bottom hook directly. I think this is also compatible with older models.
Also, Markins offers replacement kits which convert the center column style Gitzo to the one without the column:
http://www.markinsamerica.com/MA5/category.php?req=6
Yes...I just checked my ancient aluminum Gitzo 220, and the more recent, non-rotating CF center column from my GT2531 does fit into the old tripod.
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Thanks for the tips and updates on the pieces parts and the model to look for used, a bit too late for my short pod but good to know!
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...The compact needed surgery to get to ground level so I employed a hacksaw to the center column below the head. One of my friends who was also an photo enthusiast was somewhat taken back by my new go-to-ground tripod and asked "how could I do that to a Gitzo"? I think my reply was something close to "with not too much effort".
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I performed the same type of surgery to my little aluminum Gitzo 120 which I bought in a pretty "well used" shape 16 years ago at a little over $100 with a Gitzo tilt head (which I have never used). Apart from sawing off the locking part for the center column and mounting the platform directly with a bolt, I added bicycle cork handlebar tape on the upper segment of the legs for comfortable handling in the cold. It also has required some good use of marine epoxy to avoid the upper segment unscrewing from the articulation part (the little set screw did not hold), and red Locktite to prevent the screws holding the legs (articulation part) to the platform to keep coming loose. With these modifications it is holding up very well, and at a weight of 1.5 kg without my BH-40 head. It supports my AF-300mm f/4 with TC-14E on a D200 etc. pretty well with only one segment extended as below. With TC-301 the rig gets a bit on the long side, but stability problems is then just as much caused by the mechanical linkages between converter and lens/body. I think the tetrahedral default spread of these legs which is wider than often seen in other more recent tripods also adds to stability.
I feel the aluminum is quite resilient to impacts - I never pad it in my large backpack during flights. Once a kid sled into one of the outer segment while I was holding the tripod firmly down and the segment was bent pretty badly so the tripod could not be collapsed. I just straightened the segment with my hands, and today I cannot tell which of the segments were bent. I am always interested in what is out there in case it gets damaged or I feel it is not working for my purpose any longer, but both the large diameter CF tripods and the Sachtler DA75 seem to get more bulky with respect to thickness when travelling to fit inside along the side of my regular (non-photo) backpack. For me it is also important that the tripod does not have any knobs extending to the side that get hung up when I stuff it down inside the backpack. (The small yellow knobs for the metal pieces setting the angle of the legs has been removed since the image below was captured.)
(http://otoien.zenfolio.com/img/s2/v50/p1359508185-5.jpg)
A note added about using a tripod in the snow: The fixed angle stops can be a problem here. If the legs are spread all the way to the stop when pushing the tripod down in not so loose snow, it will often bend the legs outward which can both compromise stability and can cause potential damage if putting too much stain on the legs. Thus do not spread legs all the way to the stop before putting it down. (Notice to self: look for a way to keep the locks from engaging during winter use.)
Severe cold (<20°C ) will frequently prevent the tripod to get collapsed again. I have often had to carry it back home extended strapped to my backpack after an aurora shot, and I have heard many similar complaints from CF tripod users in these cold regions.
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My Gitzo hasn't broken down yet ;) so I'm not looking for a tripod currently but thought I would mention http://www.3leggedthing.com/
It's a relatively new company and I've seen them mentioned a couple of times in positive tones. I wonder whether anyone here has tried them?
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I have to agree with Bjorn regarding water and Gitzo...
If there is only moderate depth the thinnest section can be immersed in water (taking care that the first lock does not get wet) and as long as you don't collapse it back in before it has dried, it shouldn't have any adverse effects. I do this in the winter when needed as if the locks get into water they will quickly freeze and to dry it it has to be disassembled. Not to mention the crud that gets into the locks can lead to less than smooth operation. ;-) It is repairable but not very convenient. ;-) However, I would consider this kind of application outside of the "expected" use for the regular Gitzo tripods. If you plan to do this a lot then choose something else.
Gitzo makes a series of Ocean tripods which are supposed to be resistant to seawater. They have o-rings to prevent / reduce the influx of water and crud. They're fairly expensive though.
What I like about Gitzos is that for my stability requirements they are fairly light weight, the systematic series have a good highest/lowest height ratio (roughly 15x), and with the 4-section 3-series ones, collapsed size is compact and manageable. I need the tripod to be fairly tall to get to my eye level and have even one model that achieves that height even on a slope (it is 167cm fully extended yet weights only 2.2kg). There are no perturbations or knobs that could get stuck in branches when going through a forest.
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Sirui have a new series of tripods which are supposed to be sealed and waterproof: http://mob.sirui-photo.com/productseries.php?productclassid=74 (http://mob.sirui-photo.com/productseries.php?productclassid=74)
I haven't tried the W series, but I do have a Sirui R-4203 which I'm very happy with.
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Despairing that my manfrotto 055 was just a bit too flexible I looked for something more stable and found an old Sachtler with a 100mm bowl and fluid head. Leg sections are about 80cm each so it is nice and tall.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4175/33793886204_3486689347_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Tufv1q)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/Tufv1q)
It feels like a rock. And it weighs as much as one. The head alone is 3.5kg.
Any suggestions for a lighter head to go on it for still photography?
Also, to satisfy my curiousity, does anyone have an idea of the age of it?
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Sachtler commenced business in 1958, so must be one of their earliest products. I'd put it as early '60s.
Obvious no carbon fibre tubes there so can imagine it'll be heavy. The Burzynski is almost made for these tripods as it fits straight into the top bowl and makes for the lowest centre of gravity, but nowadays getting one of these heads has become very difficult if not well-nigh impossible. Might be heads with somewhat similar construction principle out there, however.