NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Processing & Publication => Topic started by: Jack Dahlgren on May 18, 2019, 07:02:45

Title: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on May 18, 2019, 07:02:45
I’ve got some architectural photography to do where color matching is important so I need to get a bit more serious about it. Primarily I process my photos in captureNX and use the eye dropper to set white balance, but am interested is how others manage color accuracy.

I’ve noticed use of the colorchecker passport in several photos here, so would appreciate opinions on how effective it is and how to best use it, particularly if you have advice beyond the instructions which come with it.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can help out.
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: Frank Fremerey on May 18, 2019, 13:02:13
Nikon NX are color managged but do not support color checker.

Lightroom supports Color Checker and Photo Ninja supports color checker too. You can build camera and lens profiles, let the EXIF be detected and corrections applied on import, ... yet ... I still think the results are best for Nikon software with Nikon cameras ...
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: charlie on May 19, 2019, 20:52:12
You'll need to use software that supports creating profiles with the color checker to fully utilize it. In addition to the programs Frank mentioned Capture One and Photoshop (ACR) also support color checker profiles.
 
Besides Capture NX, what other software are you using?

As far as effectiveness in the profiles it creates I have found that profiling does not make colors 100% accurate, that's with both Nikon and Canon cameras. Particularly with pinks & reds the hue is shifted both before and after profiling, though it does get better. Often I find the built in profiles of NX, Capture One, and Lightroom are more pleasing compared to the color checker created profiles so I'll only use it when the color needs to be as true as possible, even then some manual correction is sometimes needed.   

I find the color checker to consistently give warmer white balance than I prefer, even when using the "cool" WB patches.
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: MFloyd on May 19, 2019, 23:24:42
I’m using the Swiss Datacolor system for several years. I just upgraded to their new Spyder X probe. Only on very rare occasion I need to calibrate (though Spydercheckr) a scene (reproduction). The provided software works with Adobe Photoshop, Adobe Lightroom and Hasselblad Phocus.
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: pluton on May 22, 2019, 04:12:50
As I understand it, calibrating with a color checker is intended for one specific lighting setup....one specific color quality of light. 
Additionally, the use of the color checker calibration assumes that the photographer wishes the light to appear to be absolutely neutral in color.  This is essentially what you'd get if you included a white card in every setup and used the eyedropper white balance tool in post.
When shooting under the total control of studio lighting, the color checker calibration should deliver a good result.
When documentary shooting in the world of existing light, you'd have to calibrate every time you change location or the the color of the light changes.  Also, the color of the scene lighting would always be dead neutral, even if you were photographing by the light of a red sunset or cool blue rainy day. For fast moving documentary work, it would obviously be impractical to shoot the color checker in every setup.
For slower-moving architectural work, it might be more practical to insert a color checker into each major setup.
I shoot 98% documentary shots, but experimentally tried the Lightroom color checker calibration for my Nikon and Fujifilm cameras.  I liked the general look of the color checker calibration, and still use it knowing that I'll be fine-tuning the color rendition for many or most shots.
In the end, it may be more important that the finished set of photos match each other, rather than match a real world material sample.
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: Ann on May 22, 2019, 05:58:50
 I photograph my ColorChecker under many different kinds of lighting and make individual Profiles for each type of lighting for each of my cameras.

I use the appropriate Profile in ACR (or one could use them in Lr) when converting my RAW NEFs instead of using the canned Profiles which ship with ACR.

This works well and saves me a lot of time when I am processing.

Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: CS on May 22, 2019, 06:17:54
I understand the use of profiles for some folks. But, I'm not one of those folks, and I hope that the folks that do rely on profiles understand those of us that don't. :)
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: Frank Fremerey on May 22, 2019, 06:17:56
very true words, Keith, esp the color consistency in the series.

Jack. In the end you always produce pictures, not photos. Pictures are produced to taste, yours or your customers respectively. Spectral consistency is after all considerations less important than emotional appeal.

One more thing: in real life you do have different light (and shadow) sources in the frame very often, each with its own "correct" white balance and spectral composition...
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: CS on May 22, 2019, 06:34:41
As I understand it, calibrating with a color checker is intended for one specific lighting setup....one specific color quality of light. 
Additionally, the use of the color checker calibration assumes that the photographer wishes the light to appear to be absolutely neutral in color.  This is essentially what you'd get if you included a white card in every setup and used the eyedropper white balance tool in post.
When shooting under the total control of studio lighting, the color checker calibration should deliver a good result.
When documentary shooting in the world of existing light, you'd have to calibrate every time you change location or the the color of the light changes.  Also, the color of the scene lighting would always be dead neutral, even if you were photographing by the light of a red sunset or cool blue rainy day. For fast moving documentary work, it would obviously be impractical to shoot the color checker in every setup.
For slower-moving architectural work, it might be more practical to insert a color checker into each major setup.
I shoot 98% documentary shots, but experimentally tried the Lightroom color checker calibration for my Nikon and Fujifilm cameras.  I liked the general look of the color checker calibration, and still use it knowing that I'll be fine-tuning the color rendition for many or most shots.
In the end, it may be more important that the finished set of photos match each other, rather than match a real world material sample.

Well Keith, I have a local friend, a brilliant EE and physics guy. For all of that, he loves Luminar on the Mac, because of the profiles, and god bless him but, I hate profiles! I also hope that doesn't get us both banned, but it's just a different path for different folks, as I see it. What say you?
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on May 22, 2019, 06:57:46
very true words, Keith, esp the color consistency in the series.

Jack. In the end you always produce pictures, not photos. Pictures are produced to taste, yours or your customers respectively. Spectral consistency is after all considerations less important than emotional appeal.

One more thing: in real life you do have different light (and shadow) sources in the frame very often, each with its own "correct" white balance and spectral composition...

Yes, generally I photograph under “natural” light which ranges from blue to yellow, to pink and green, and all combinations. But for architectural work it starts to be important that a photo of a sample matches the sample, or at least allows you to accurately compare one photo of one sample to another photo of another sample. And both might have been taken at different times and places.
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: pluton on May 22, 2019, 22:51:08
Yes, generally I photograph under “natural” light which ranges from blue to yellow, to pink and green, and all combinations. But for architectural work it starts to be important that a photo of a sample matches the sample, or at least allows you to accurately compare one photo of one sample to another photo of another sample. And both might have been taken at different times and places.
If the mixed or discontinuous spectrum lighting is not able to be corrected by careful use of adjustment brush corrections(painting the excess blue out of the shadows, fixing the hideous cast of a low pressure sodium vapor lamp, etc), the solution is to abandon the existing or available light and bring in artificial lighting.  Imagine:  Total Control.  Unfortunately, for physically large subjects, this could get to be an expensive operation.  Sometimes, you can get away with bringing artificial light in on just a portion of the overall scene, and plan/wait for harmonious natural light to match.
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: Ann on May 22, 2019, 23:21:17
Once you have made, and saved, your own Profiles, it is pretty simple to substitute the appropriate Customised one for the software-provided Profile when one is processing.

I have made some dual-spectrum profiles (Daylight+Tungsten for example) and they handle images shot in mixed lighting rather successfully.

That said, the provided Profiles in the latest versions of commercial processing software are pretty good these days but you still have to use the right Profile for any particular set of images which is highly unlikely to be "Camera Standard"!
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: Frank Fremerey on May 23, 2019, 08:17:04
Yes, generally I photograph under “natural” light which ranges from blue to yellow, to pink and green, and all combinations. But for architectural work it starts to be important that a photo of a sample matches the sample, or at least allows you to accurately compare one photo of one sample to another photo of another sample. And both might have been taken at different times and places.

the Gold Standard for Architectural Photos, not documentary but aestetic work is determining the right time, angle and light, often even the right time of year. Then come back, when the light is right.

Documentary work should be done in comparable light, so either bring your own or decide for a set like: "overcast, 10 in the morning, view from South East" ... you can not match Californian midday sun and sunset hour in Bejing, even if you choose the same materials and angles ... sometimes the very same slab of concrete can look orange, sometimes like slate ... you will not be able to work around this with a color checker
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: Ann on May 23, 2019, 19:33:58
For architectural Interiors, you are highly likely to have to deal with multiple different lighting sources within the scene itself and the use of a Dual Lighting Sources Camera profile can help considerably.

I seldom photograph the ColorChecker itself during an actual shoot (Product shots containing important fabric-colours would be an exception) but I always process my RAWs starting with my most appropriate pre-made Camera Profile.
(I never shoot JPGs.)

Then I adjust all the ACR Sliders manually, and use Adjustment Brushes liberally, to pull the rendering that i want from the RAW.

Mostly  I am not trying, (or needing!) to match the original scene but am much more likely to want to create a series of images which portray the scene as I wish the Viewer to see it — while the series also needs to work when viewed together in a printed spread.

It doesn't matter how much you use ColorChecker, you are unlikely to be able to reproduce the Spot Color inks used in product-packaging, or the colours of certain acryllic artist's paints,  in Press CMYK output or inkjet prints so "Pleasing Colour" is the best you can hope for in those cases.

This Lion was shot at sunrise (so the overall colour temperature of the scene was Blue) but a beam from the rising sun (bright Orange!) spot-lit his face. 
My ColorChecker-created dual "Daylight+Tungsten" camera Profile handled the situation easily while none of the canned camera profiles could.

(http://nikongear.net/revival/gallery/0/1358-230519192341-7082278.jpeg)
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: Frank Fremerey on May 23, 2019, 20:05:46
what Ann says plus an emphasis on the out-of-gamut-colors part. There is an early thread somewhere on nikongear from a shirt fabric shooting for a customer. A greenish blueish tone far beyond any target color space. We created a series of  edits from the RAW and in the end found half a match in sRGB and quite a useful match in AdobeRGB
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: CS on May 23, 2019, 23:44:45
For architectural Interiors, you are highly likely to have to deal with multiple different lighting sources within the scene itself and the use of a Dual Lighting Sources Camera profile can help considerably.

I seldom photograph the ColorChecker itself during an actual shoot (Product shots containing important fabric-colours would be an exception) but I always process my RAWs starting with my most appropriate pre-made Camera Profile.
(I never shoot JPGs.)

Then I adjust all the ACR Sliders manually, and use Adjustment Brushes liberally, to pull the rendering that i want from the RAW.

Mostly  I am not trying, (or needing!) to match the original scene but am much more likely to want to create a series of images which portray the scene as I wish the Viewer to see it — while the series also needs to work when viewed together in a printed spread.

It doesn't matter how much you use ColorChecker, you are unlikely to be able to reproduce the Spot Color inks used in product-packaging, or the colours of certain acryllic artist's paints,  in Press CMYK output or inkjet prints so "Pleasing Colour" is the best you can hope for in those cases.

This Lion was shot at sunrise (so the overall colour temperature of the scene was Blue) but a beam from the rising sun (bright Orange!) spot-lit his face. 
My ColorChecker-created dual "Daylight+Tungsten" camera Profile handled the situation easily while none of the canned camera profiles could.


Well, your lion shot tells me that perhaps I don't like profiles because I don't know enough about making proper use of them.
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: Ann on May 24, 2019, 01:22:11
Carl:

Perhaps a useful first step would be to test the various Profiles which are included in ACR (and in Lr too).

You are only shown the versions which apply to the camera which shot the image.
The ones called "Camera Portrait/Neutral/Standard/Vivid" etc. are profiles which emulate the camera-manufacturers in-camera Picture Controls.

The ones called "Adobe Portrait/Neutral/Standard/Vivid" etc. are profiles which were designed from scratch by Adobe's engineers and which you may like better than the "Camera . . ." series.
 
"Adobe Color" is a profile which often works well to produce natural-looking colours from images shot under different conditions. First select a Profile (try different ones!) and then adjust the WB sliders manually from the "As Shot" position. (I avoid Auto or any of the other named WB spaces.)

Personally, I have found it worthwhile to create my own Camera Profiles for specific lighting sources and the ColorChecker Passport software from xRite (which is designed to be used in conjunction with the free DNG Converter) lets one create Dual-source profiles. These can be extremely useful when you have to deal with mixed lighting.

You just shoot the CC Passport device under every possible different light source and the software then leads you through creating the profiles and places them automatically in the right directory on your HD so that they can then be loaded and used directly from the Camera Profile drop-down menu in ACR or Lr.



Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: CS on May 24, 2019, 06:00:09
Carl:

Perhaps a useful first step would be to test the various Profiles which are included in ACR (and in Lr too).

You are only shown the versions which apply to the camera which shot the image.
The ones called "Camera Portrait/Neutral/Standard/Vivid" etc. are profiles which emulate the camera-manufacturers in-camera Picture Controls.

The ones called "Adobe Portrait/Neutral/Standard/Vivid" etc. are profiles which were designed from scratch by Adobe's engineers and which you may like better than the "Camera . . ." series.
 
"Adobe Color" is a profile which often works well to produce natural-looking colours from images shot under different conditions. First select a Profile (try different ones!) and then adjust the WB sliders manually from the "As Shot" position. (I avoid Auto or any of the other named WB spaces.)

Personally, I have found it worthwhile to create my own Camera Profiles for specific lighting sources and the ColorChecker Passport software from xRite (which is designed to be used in conjunction with the free DNG Converter) lets one create Dual-source profiles. These can be extremely useful when you have to deal with mixed lighting.

You just shoot the CC Passport device under every possible different light source and the software then leads you through creating the profiles and places them automatically in the right directory on your HD so that they can then be loaded and used directly from the Camera Profile drop-down menu in ACR or Lr.

Thank you, Ann. I have clicked on some profiles, but, I clearly needed more than that. Your info looks like a good start to set me in the right direction.  :)
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: PeterN on July 29, 2019, 11:18:14
Although the topic has been discussed a while ago, I thought to share my thoughts on this, in particular because what I learned during a colour management workshop contradicts with the conclusion that you cannot work around different lighting circumstances with a colour checker (my apologies if I misinterpreted the remark made). It is the colour checker's very intention is to get consistent colors across various light circumstances.

Perception of color is very subjective.  What you see may differ from what someone else sees.  It depends on the context, what our brains expect to see and illumination.  Although the human visual system is able to adjust to changes in illumination and preserve the appearance of a color, it can also be easily 'tricked" seeing a totally different color than the true color.
 
The "only" thing we can do in photography is to capture  “true colours” and create consistency among our devices (camera, display, printer, projector) by calibrating the equipment and by aligning the settings of each device. The purpose of the color checker is to compare the colors captured in a specific lighting setting and compare those colors with the true colors as defined by the manufacturer of the color checker. So ideally, you make one photo of every scene with the color checker and create a profile for that situation. Obviously this is not very practical, especially since there are other factors that determines how other people will experience your photo (their set-up, their lighting context, their expectations). So pre-creating camera color profiles like Ann does, is a more practical solution.

This is how it works with x-rite and Lightroom:
1. download and install color checker passport software, including plug-in for Lightroom.
2. Make references photo with color checker. E.g. for each camera: Shoot color checker in various circumstances: sunny day, cloudy day, rainy day, inside light room, inside artificial light, flash light. Or whatever circumstance that is relevant for you.
3. Export these reference photo(s) with preset for color checker (under file menu).
4. A DNG profile is generated and visible in the basic menu of development module.
Note: You can find profiles in user>library>application support>adobe>cameraRaw>cameraprofiles

Having said so, at the end of the day what is relevant is what you want to communicate with the photo or what emotion you like to trigger. To what extent "true colour" matters for achieving that, is up to you.  You can create your own profiles, buy profiles, or get profiles for free. I like Ann's suggestion to start with using Adobe's profiles and then create your own.

PS 1: According to the teacher of the workshop, some checkers are more accurate than others. We did not have time to dive into what true color is and which device is better than another. I got the impression that he liked x-rite's color checker though.

PS 2: I do hope I correctly reflected what was said during the workshop. If not, experts at this forum will hopefully jump in.
Title: Re: Advice or recommendations on using color checker
Post by: Ann on July 29, 2019, 16:39:29
The patches in an xRite's ColorChecker are each made from individual grains of pigment (not from a mixture of inks) so their colours remain consistent and that is the reason that the device is quite expensive. (That is also the reason why you should never stick your fingers into the patches!)

The x-Rite software is easy to use (as Peter has outlined so clearly) and the resulting Camera Profiles can be installed into Lightroom, ACR and several other Converters as well and, from my experience, seem to be very accurate.

I have never used a Checker from any of the other manufacturers so I have no knowledge concerning them.