NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Bent Hjarbo on April 21, 2019, 18:32:16

Title: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on April 21, 2019, 18:32:16
I have for some time had problems when having white in the frame, my D500 seems to underexpose.
So in snow I had to set +1 or 2 to get it right :o
So now today in bright sunshine I took my cameras out to take some test shot.
My house is white and gray, the sky was blue.
I used a Df, D800 and the D500
Two set of pictures the house and the concrete tiles in the garden.
The problem seem only to be present in matrix metering.
The files has not been changed in LR, just exported
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Birna Rørslett on April 21, 2019, 18:41:07
My D500 behaves in a similar fashion.
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Ann on April 21, 2019, 19:04:46
I have never yet used a Nikon which didn't under-expose by default if you shoot NEFs.
 
Nikon seems to program their settings for JPG-shooting but we have much more headroom with NEFs.
There is a program called RawDigger and it lets one see exactly by how much Nikons are under-exposing a RAW file.

I get over this by changing the internal meter settings in the menus for +0.66 EV and I then over-ride on the fly with the external ±EV button for special circumstances.

You might find that would work well for you as well?
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: CS on April 21, 2019, 19:58:27
I have for some time had problems when having white in the frame, my D500 seems to underexpose.
So in snow I had to set +1 or 2 to get it right :o
So now today in bright sunshine I took my cameras out to take some test shot.
My house is white and gray, the sky was blue.
I used a Df, D800 and the D500
Two set of pictures the house and the concrete tiles in the garden.
The problem seem only to be present in matrix metering.
The files has not been changed in LR, just exported

Of the 3 house shots, I like the D800 best, but, it seems to have blown some highlights in the table top. Or maybe it's me and my nearly blown eyesight.
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on April 22, 2019, 00:16:55
the real problem is the coupling of the AF system and the exposure system  ... the interdependence is not easily learned
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: richardHaw on April 22, 2019, 07:26:55
this boggled me before when I was still shooting with a D700  :o :o :o

i think its averaging the values of the house and the sky.

SO FAR i have noticed that the F6's meter seems to be almost always spot-on ::)
its smart enough to pick the human in the scene and meter from it/them.
havent shot snow yet but they said that the F6 and F5 meters can recognize a snowy scene.

what i do now is if i suspect my camera exposing for the sky i will just do spot and then average the scene myself. i am used to using a separate spot meter and its second nature to me.

i am not sure if this is just NEF file specific though...

Nikons film cameras metering seems to be really accurate for most situations EXCEPT scenes with lamps and lanterns because the camera will consider them in the metering too. for this, spot metering is indispensible
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: richardHaw on April 22, 2019, 07:28:22
i can ask mr. Goto for his inputs  :o :o :o

he should definitely know this.
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on April 22, 2019, 08:52:04
That would be nice.
With my D700 I didn’t have this problem, so I think that something is changed.
Regarding the AF and the metering I will read more about it in the manual.
I was considering not taking the D500 with me to Scotland, but I have changed my mind now.
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on April 22, 2019, 10:00:25
Bent: I am very happy with my D500 and will sure take it with me to Scotland. Tom Hogan has a chapter on the D500 AF where he explains how the AF mode influences the exposure metering. I a nutshell: the metering usually follows the AF point but sometimes it does not, then AF can be at the perimeter while measuring is done in the center of the frame. Confusing. In real life I might have trouble with this once in 1000 frames.
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: richardHaw on April 22, 2019, 10:56:52
Bent: I am very happy with my D500 and will sure take it with me to Scotland. Tom Hogan has a chapter on the D500 AF where he explains how the AF mode influences the exposure metering. I a nutshell: the metering usually follows the AF point but sometimes it does not, then AF can be at the perimeter while measuring is done in the center of the frame. Confusing. In real life I might have trouble with this once in 1000 frames.

looks like the camera is trying to be smart  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on April 22, 2019, 13:37:05
looks like the camera is trying to be smart  :o :o :o

grand user irritaton = GUI
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on April 22, 2019, 14:09:01
I actually have Thoms book, may have to read more in it ;)
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Erik Lund on April 23, 2019, 11:11:21
When metering the camera weighs the area where the selected focus area is very high, like very high!


So if you focus and recompose, for instance with a MF lens shooting same scene moving the focus area around you will se the meeting change.
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on April 23, 2019, 12:43:45
I will try and play with this in mind to see if it solves my problem.
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: charlie on April 23, 2019, 19:34:16
Yes, what Erik said. I recall a big difference between the D700 & D800 matrix metering regarding where the focus point was in the scene. The matrix exposure can be a 2-3 stop difference based solely on where the focus point is in the scene. Switch over to center weighted and this behavior goes away and the cameras meters behave more similar to one another.
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: OCD on April 25, 2019, 00:07:39
I have a D7500 and have been waffling back and forth between processing RAW and JPEG files.  I tend to agree with Hogan, at least in the D7500 guide he publishes, that in his opinion Nikon has matrix metering designed to not blow highlights. And this makes me want to agree with Ann that Matrix metering might work best with JPEGS, especially with Active D-Lighting set to Auto.  It makes sense to me that the metering avoids blowing the highlights, and ADL then expands the dynamic range, for JPEG files.  Nikon's Auto mode, and all the scene modes are set up with Matrix and Auto ADL. 

I only use the center focus point, and with matrix metering I will re-compose, but I never lock exposure (with matrix), and my experience is that the camera then meters on the final scene when I press the shutter release.  The idea that the focus point can change how matrix meters is a surprise to me because my understanding is matrix exposes on the entire frame, I did not know there could be any emphasis determined by the focus point.  I thought only spot metering metered on a focus point.

Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: charlie on April 25, 2019, 01:01:20
The idea that the focus point can change how matrix meters is a surprise to me because my understanding is matrix exposes on the entire frame

You would think so, but my D800 doesn't work that way. In aperture priority matrix metering just by moving the focus point on a high contrast scene I can get the meter to swing 4+ stops. When the focus point falls on the shadow area of a scene it is certainly not protecting the highlights. Perhaps they changed the way newer cameras meter?
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: OCD on April 25, 2019, 02:01:16
You would think so, but my D800 doesn't work that way. In aperture priority matrix metering just by moving the focus point on a high contrast scene I can get the meter to swing 4+ stops. When the focus point falls on the shadow area of a scene it is certainly not protecting the highlights. Perhaps they changed the way newer cameras meter?

I believe you.  It was news to me since I'm an old-fashioned center focus point guy. 
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: ianwatson on April 25, 2019, 02:40:59
You would think so, but my D800 doesn't work that way. In aperture priority matrix metering just by moving the focus point on a high contrast scene I can get the meter to swing 4+ stops. When the focus point falls on the shadow area of a scene it is certainly not protecting the highlights. Perhaps they changed the way newer cameras meter?

This reminds us of the virtues of centre-weighted metering. It might not be fancy but it is much more predictable.
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on April 25, 2019, 08:49:40
This reminds us of the virtues of centre-weighted metering. It might not be fancy but it is much more predictable.
In the images I showed, I got better exposure using center-weighted metering, a pity that one have to go backwards in technology. Will do more experiments.
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Erik Lund on April 25, 2019, 17:45:28
You just have to be aware of how the metering works ;) 8)
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: armando_m on April 25, 2019, 18:02:14
You would think so, but my D800 doesn't work that way. In aperture priority matrix metering just by moving the focus point on a high contrast scene I can get the meter to swing 4+ stops. When the focus point falls on the shadow area of a scene it is certainly not protecting the highlights. Perhaps they changed the way newer cameras meter?
On my D800 I'm use to spot metering he highlights, set the exposure and then worry about focus
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on April 26, 2019, 00:01:30
On my D800 I'm use to spot metering he highlights, set the exposure and then worry about focus

With earlier camera generations I only used spot metering to set AE, locked it, then did the AF operation.

Please note that today also the spot metering is heavily influenced by the AF mode, see Thom's guide. With AF set to S/S = sharpness priority / single focus point it still behaves like in the old days. Beware of AF tracking with group AF or 3D AF or AF-C with tracking ....
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Akira on April 26, 2019, 01:54:24
I'm afraid that it would not necessarily be directly related to the original topic.  But I found that the stray light entering from the eyepiece affected the metering more than I imagined.  I wear glasses, and thus there is more open space between my face and the eyepiece, which exacerbated the problem.
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Ann on April 26, 2019, 05:21:14
I mostly use centre-weighted metering (but with a +0.66 EV meter setting in the menus) and sometimes Spot metering. I don't normally use Matrix metering.
 
I often use 3D AF for fast-moving subjects (like birds in flight); and sometimes Group AF with certain subjects (knowing that the fore-most part of the Group will grab the focus).
Both Auto Focus modes are fast and accurate in the D5.

Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on April 26, 2019, 07:41:08
Ann is right. If you are accustomed to center weighted and know what you are doing you got a working way to decouple metering an AF. if you also use AE hold or AE lock in situations where the chip cannot handle the full contrast anymore you are in business.

3D and Group combined with spot metering means you really have to be aware of the inner workings of the automatics
Title: Re: Is my D500 lightmeter defect in matrix metering?
Post by: arthurking83 on April 30, 2019, 00:53:40
In the images I showed, I got better exposure using center-weighted metering, a pity that one have to go backwards in technology. Will do more experiments.

For your situation, if you believe the exposure to be too low, maybe use menu item B7 to adjust the metering value.
Gives you 1/6Ev incremental options between -1 and +1Ev of adjustment.
The options here are for each metering mode type too, so changing the exposure bias for Matrix doesn't affect it for the CW or Spot modes
If too low, try going higher into +ve values, until you reach an acceptable result.