NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: Akira on January 27, 2019, 09:49:41

Title: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2019, 09:49:41
Nex to the Fujifilm Square (showroom and gallery) in Roppongi, Tokyo, there is Photo History Musium where cameras and lenses that were epoch-making at various times in the history of photography.

Among the displayed items, I found an abnormally large zoom designed for the 4x5 format.  It is a 150-210mm/f5.6 constant aperture "standard" zoom.  Here is a picture.  Fuji's film SLR of a standard size should tell the size of the zoom and magnitude of my surprize.

Hope you enjoy it!
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Birna Rørslett on January 27, 2019, 10:53:50
Poor Copal shutter and the strain it'll have to cope with ....
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2019, 11:54:05
...and the lens plate.
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Birna Rørslett on January 27, 2019, 12:37:40
The Copal shutter would be a part of the front plate so the strain might be severe with that apparently heavy zoom lens. And considering the rather small size of prime lenses in this focal range, and the ease of snapping in or out a front plate with the respective lens mounted, I'm a little surprised the company went to the efforts of making that huge zoom lens.

I did a lot of work in the film days with 150/5.6, 210/5.6, and 270/6.3 T-ED Nikkors on my 4x5" Arca-Swiss camera. If I deployed the 360/8 or 500/11 Nikkor-T ED, an extension bellows was required.
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2019, 14:22:44
I also wondered about the purpose of the lens.  My friend pro photographer suspected it would make it easy to adjust the view angle when you would do the product photograhy, but then one would doubt if the hugely asymmetric lens could perform decently in such a proximity.  Or was it designed as a zoom micro...well, not likely...
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Dr Klaus Schmitt on January 27, 2019, 18:05:28
Interesting! Surplus Shed has a COMPUTAR MF zoom lens for sale since long ... very cheap ;-)
105mm to 150mm, f/4.5 to f/5.6, AR coated elements, covers 4x5" as per the description
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Akira on January 27, 2019, 21:34:33
Interesting! Surplus Shed has a COMPUTAR MF zoom lens for sale since long ... very cheap ;-)
105mm to 150mm, f/4.5 to f/5.6, AR coated elements, covers 4x5" as per the description

Is it equally huge?  (Well, it should be...)
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Dr Klaus Schmitt on January 28, 2019, 19:30:17
Is it equally huge?  (Well, it should be...)

"Front clear lens diameter is 50mm and rear clear lens diameter is 30mm. Barrel is 70mm diameter, Front lens shade is 85mm diameter."
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on January 28, 2019, 20:17:34
"Front clear lens diameter is 50mm and rear clear lens diameter is 30mm. Barrel is 70mm diameter, Front lens shade is 85mm diameter."

It appears to cover 4x5 only at one end.
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Akira on January 28, 2019, 21:46:31
"Front clear lens diameter is 50mm and rear clear lens diameter is 30mm. Barrel is 70mm diameter, Front lens shade is 85mm diameter."

That small?  Isn't it designed for the larger-than-life magnification only?
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 29, 2019, 09:07:12
Poor Copal shutter and the strain it'll have to cope with ....

To hold a 600mm Nikkor an old colleague used to mount it to a second tripod with his Linhof Technikardan on the first tripod, look:

(picture taken with my father's Minolta Dimage 7 before I bought my first own Digital Camera)
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Birna Rørslett on January 29, 2019, 13:24:48
These are my long focal "twins" in the Nikkor-T ED line: 360mm f/8 and 500mm f/11. They had exchangeable dedicated rear sections that turned them from one focal length to the other. With a 30 cm long bellows they would work well on my Arca-Swiss 4x5" monorail and as they were relatively speaking "featherweights", usually no extra tripod support was required.

There was a third sibling, the 720mm f/16 T-ED, which I skipped because it required more bellows draw than was practical in the field.

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/g4kAAOSwnCFaKWlZ/s-l640.jpg)

As these lenses were true telephoto designs, one needed far less bellows extension than with standard long-focal lenses.
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Akira on January 29, 2019, 14:00:58

To hold a 600mm Nikkor an old colleague used to mount it to a second tripod with his Linhof Technikardan on the first tripod, look:

(picture taken with my father's Minolta Dimage 7 before I bought my first own Digital Camera)

Apparently, the front part of this field camera is detached in order to achieve the necessary extention?
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Frank Fremerey on January 29, 2019, 18:05:47
Apparently, the front part of this field camera is detached in order to achieve the necessary extention?

as I see it the front standart is 4*5 inch, the bellows between first and second standart expands from 4*5 to 5*7 or 8*10 which is also the format of the third standart. He also seems to have another bellows as Compendium to protect the front lens from stray light and there is a supporting rail connecting both tripods. It took him very long to install all this, while I was already taking pictures
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Dr Klaus Schmitt on January 30, 2019, 09:14:32
That small?  Isn't it designed for the larger-than-life magnification only?

at 105mm and f5.6 you only need 18.75mm lens diameter in theory ;-)
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Birna Rørslett on January 30, 2019, 10:26:19
at 105mm and f5.6 you only need 18.75mm lens diameter in theory ;-)

As witnessed by the large-format 105 mm mounted in the small Copal 0 shutter. However, it should be emphasised these are wide-angle designs. They typically have a pronounced 'wasp waist' shape dictated by large front and rear elements and a relatively speaking tiny central shutter unit.
Title: Re: Prototype of a zoom lens for 4x5!
Post by: Akira on January 30, 2019, 12:17:33
as I see it the front standart is 4*5 inch, the bellows between first and second standart expands from 4*5 to 5*7 or 8*10 which is also the format of the third standart. He also seems to have another bellows as Compendium to protect the front lens from stray light and there is a supporting rail connecting both tripods. It took him very long to install all this, while I was already taking pictures

Frank, thank you for sharing your solid observation.  That makes sense.


at 105mm and f5.6 you only need 18.75mm lens diameter in theory ;-)

Klaus, you are right.  But I would think that the front elements of the fast standard zooms tend to be much larger than the theoretical size.  35-70mm/f3.5 or f2.8 zooms come to my mind.  An f5.6 standard zoom for 4x5 should be very fast.

That said, I will look into the front element when I have another chance to visit the museum.