NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Processing & Publication => Topic started by: Frode on September 13, 2018, 21:33:57

Title: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Frode on September 13, 2018, 21:33:57
For those who might be interested:

https://downloadcenter.nikonimglib.com/en/download/sw/118.html
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Jan Anne on September 13, 2018, 21:40:40
Downloading, thanks  :)

Hope its also a little faster, somehow it isn't able to fully utilise the horsepower of my MacBook Pro to process 20MP files which has no problem with editing 42MP files in Capture One.
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Frode on September 13, 2018, 21:47:51
Downloading, thanks  :)

Hope its also a little faster, somehow it isn't able to fully utilise the horsepower of my MacBook Pro to process 20MP files which has no problem with editing 42MP files in Capture One.

It`s definitely faster on my older MacBook. I might start to use it again :-).
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Akira on September 13, 2018, 22:36:12
Thank you, Frode, for the note!

Hopefully this version will enable me to unsubscribe CC.    :P
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Bjørn J on September 13, 2018, 23:12:21
Much faster! Control points at last, and together with my favourite tool the LCH-editor makes this version NX-D what it should have been all the time.  In terms of quality, this is one of the best NEF-developers available.
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on September 14, 2018, 11:02:52
This seems like a good release. It seemed faster and did not crash yet.  ::)

Color control points are good to have, but I often preferred to paint a mask with the selection brush and make adjustments to it using NX2. This type of feature doesn't seem to be yet supported in NX-D. It's important because color control points applied on the face leave eyes dark, which can create an unnatural impression.

Still, it is good to see improvements to NX-D.
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: arthurking83 on September 14, 2018, 13:25:40
Just installed.
Much nicer than previous versions.
Makes it usable. Uses a ton of CPU tho on my machine. Just had a quick play on a random D800E image with the CCP, and CPU fan spun up like crazy whilst doing very simple edits.
But, NX-D still kept moving along at a steady pace.
I didn't have the time to go make a cuppa during any of the editing whilst waited for screen to refresh, like I used too with previous versions.  :P
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: MFloyd on September 14, 2018, 16:37:30
Installed. Just to make a brief assessment. Might be, finally, the real successor of the Capture NX2 version. Just too late (for me).

(*) I still have an unopened 2.0 CD-ROM version (with key) in house.
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Akira on September 15, 2018, 00:13:10
Installed and tried briefly.  It looks promising.  The control point is handy.

If I understand correctly, NX-D is based on Silkypix, and the control point is the patented technology of NIK software.  NIK was bought by Google, which was why CNX was discontinued, and then by DxO.

Now, I wonder how Nikon was able to inplement the control point again in NX-D?  Is it licenced by DxO?
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on September 15, 2018, 14:44:21
I guess these software are a combination of Nikon code (the actual raw conversion) and software written by their partners (which they rarely talk about).

I am sure DxO is happier to work with Nikon (especially if they are in some financial trouble) than Google was. If the software got faster and less crash prone, as it seems to have, and got features (control points) that DxO now owns the rights to, then perhaps it is a result of Nikon having hired DxO to fix NX-D.
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Akira on September 15, 2018, 15:01:08
Thank you, Ilkka, for sharing your thoughts.

The latest NX-D operates noticeably faster than the old version I tried briefly in the past and didn't really liked.

I'm not sure the software is completely converted from Silypix-based to DxO-based, but the improvements of the latest NX-D is enthusiastically welcome.

I'm seriously thinking about unsubscribing Adobe CC.  I won't be able to do stitching anymore then, but I might be able to find an alternative way.   ;)
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Matthew Currie on September 15, 2018, 16:28:51
I don't have Adobe so I don't know how their stitching works, but if you don't mind converting to JPG first, there is a free Microsoft program called ICE which works pretty well, and might be worth a try. 
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: arthurking83 on September 15, 2018, 16:39:06
So I've been having a bit more of a play with NX-D.

And interesting 'observation' I just noted:
I downloaded some more sample Z7 NEFs, popped them into CNX-D and had a look at the picture control settings.

I note that they are a bit more advanced than the D850 Picture Control settings.

Both images from both cameras can be made to look 99.9999% identical when settings are 'equalised'.
I put equalised into quotation marks because they're not really equal, just the same settings applied.

What's different:

D850 has a single sharpening setting, from 0-9(ie. 10 levels, 0 being off)

Z7 has two different sharpening systems, one of which is the sharpening as the D850 has, but it also has an additional 'mid range' sharpening tool.
And further to this is that the slider/values dip below 0, and into negative territory, where the values range between -3 to 9.

Both still have the clarity slider as well.
More accurately the Z7's Picture Control has a Quick Sharpen tool, that controls all three sharpening tools. The Quick Sharpen merely controls the Sharpen/Mid Range Sharpen and Clarity sliders at the same time(as in a batch mode style). Quick Sharpen has a -2 to 2 range

The other point of note with respect to PP control is with respect to noise reduction.

On the D850(as well as just about every other DSLR NEF file I've had played with in Nikon software, you can turn off NR 'completely' using the Capture softwares(both NX2 and NX-D).
So if you shoot at high ISO, you can turn NR off, and see the results of that setting(increased chroma noise and increased acuity in fine detail)

Nikon have changed it with the Z7.
With the same ISO 12800 sample images, there is no option to go manual in the NR tool. And it's obvious that there is some NR applied to the image as it's relative chroma noise level is less than the similar D850 file, and it loses quite a considerable amount of acuity by comparison too.

SO it's very obvious that Nikon won't allow any manual NR tweaks at specific ISO levels with the new Picture Controls made available.
The upshot(or downside) to this is that in some cases(red details on red background in the instance I played with), the Z7 loses out on detail that the D850 collects .. all due to the inability to switch off the NR function completely on the Z7 NEF file.
note: I only downloaded the ISO64 and ISO12800 files(from IR) to play with .. so I don't yet know at what ISO setting Nikon will allow NR to be manually set.
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Akira on September 15, 2018, 17:00:22
I don't have Adobe so I don't know how their stitching works, but if you don't mind converting to JPG first, there is a free Microsoft program called ICE which works pretty well, and might be worth a try.

Matthew, thank you for your suggestion.  I actually tried ICE a couple of years ago.  I found it was rather a simple software which more or less just stitches rectangular frames side by side, leaving the stitching artefact quite obvious: the lines across the frames are not properly connected.

On the other hand, Photomerge (the stitching function in Adobe CC) stitches the frames with complicated stiching lines so that the stiches are not obvious.  And the lines across the frames are connected pretty well with occasional misses of very thin lines like the power lines.

Even Photomerge in older version of CC left the stitching artefacts more than that in the current CC, so the current version of ICE may be improved.  But, I think that the limitation of the facility of ICE could stil persist, so long as it just connects rectangular frames side by side.
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Akira on September 15, 2018, 17:07:05
So I've been having a bit more of a play with NX-D.

D850 has a single sharpening setting, from 0-9(ie. 10 levels, 0 being off)

Z7 has two different sharpening systems, one of which is the sharpening as the D850 has, but it also has an additional 'mid range' sharpening tool.
And further to this is that the slider/values dip below 0, and into negative territory, where the values range between -3 to 9.

Thank you, Arthur, for the detailed review.

When Nikon added "Flat" picture control on, IIRC, D810, they enabled NX-D to apply it to the NEF images of older models that didn't have the "Flat" setting like D7000 I used at that time.

So, hopefully Nikon would do the same thing with the new sharpening in the (very near) future version.

As for the high-ISO noise reduction in Z7, it appears to be similar to that of Pentax K1 II on which it is applied on the hardware basis and cannot be turned off in any way.
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: arthurking83 on September 16, 2018, 00:05:13
Yes of course!
You can choose an older camera raw file and use the newer Picture Control styles in NX-D.
Just tried it on an old D70s NEF file.

My bad for not explaining the implication (late night at work, a bit of brain fade on my part) .. but the implication is that those same Picture Control settings will be also repeated in camera(ie. on the Z cameras).
It seems that not too far into the future, the in camera processing ability won't be too far removed from what's possible on a computer!  :P

Still a bit pissed at Nikon for the lazy-hackabout implementation of film/negative reversal on the D850 too. Why not just make it a Picture Control style, rather than the way they did it(jpg only, and non really configurable).
I remember the 'good ol days' when they put some effort into their customer care and someone made the effort to create Picture Control styles that you could download to the camera(remember the D2XMode .. etc styles).
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Matthew Currie on September 16, 2018, 00:40:07
My results with ICE haven't been so bad, though I will say I haven't pixel peeped drastically.  It's been updated a couple of times in the last few years, so it might be worth another try.  I usually try to overlap shots by about 1/3, and I haven't seen any bothersome stitching artifacts.

A recent one, no bothersome seams that I can see:  (e.t.a.  by the way that's Svalbard this summer, and the near part of that glacier is dead owing to global warming)





Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Akira on September 16, 2018, 01:51:20
Matthew, thank you for the additional details.

Even though the last update of ICE to 2.0.3 was in May 2016, it seems to be quite a bit improved from the version I tried. 

I've download the 2.0.3.  Your image makes me feel that it is worth giving it another try.  It even supports RAW files using Microsoft's own converter now.
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: ericbowles on September 16, 2018, 14:07:41
It's great to see Control Points in NX-D.  They are a very useful feature.

One of the concerns mentioned here was about the impact of control points on faces.  One of the key features of control points is you can use "neutral" control points with no changes to eliminate spillover to areas that are nearby.  You can also right click and duplicate a control point and might use 3-4 small control points rather than one large control point.

Nikon was a part owner of Nik when Capture NX2 was released with control points and the Nik plugins.  CNX2 had a trademark for Upoint by Nik, but did not explicitly indicate who owned the idea for local adjustments using control points.  Around 2008 Nikon stopped investing in enhancements from Nik, and this ultimately led to Nikon discontinuing their relationship and ownership of Nik.  CNX2 was going to need a complete rewrite to move forward and Nikon was unwilling to make that investment in 2008-2010.  It was several years before Nik developed and released Snapseed - which is what Google really wanted.  The Nik staff stayed with Google for a year or less fulfilling their contractual requirements, but it was obvious Google did not want to invest in software development outside of Snapseed.  Some of the original developers are now at Skylum/Luminar.  All this is to say that control points may not be that unique and Nikon could easily have retained rights or been able to acquire rights if needed since DxO appears to need money. 

Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: Ilkka Nissilä on September 16, 2018, 14:22:39
One of the concerns mentioned here was about the impact of control points on faces.  One of the key features of control points is you can use "neutral" control points with no changes to eliminate spillover to areas that are nearby.  You can also right click and duplicate a control point and might use 3-4 small control points rather than one large control point.

I understand, but I want the adjustment to extend to the whole face including the dark areas, the eyes, nose etc. The color control point applies adjustment to areas of similar tone and colour but the eyes are not the same colour or tone than the cheeks, so it doesn't work.

Using the selection brush tool in NX2, this facial selection takes a couple of seconds and is the quickest way of fixing underexposed faces in shots. With PS it took me 15 min to get it done the first time around (tinkering with the mask) somehow it was almost magically easy in NX2. Of course now I can do it faster in PS but it's still a much slower process to get that kind of control as NX2 allowed so easily. And in my opinion somehow the adjustments in NX2 didn't bring out as much noise as ACR does when doing this. But this is only my recollection maybe someone else can do it better.

One area where color control points are great is when shooting with a white background and needing to adjust the areas of the background behind the subject to be closer to white. With color control points it is a very quick task.
Title: Re: Capture NX- D update with color control point
Post by: paul_k on September 29, 2018, 12:06:23
I was pretty happy to hear about the new NXD version with colourpoints, as, since I didn't want to say goodbye to NX2 after I got a D850, I up till then shot TIFF's rather then NEF's to be able to process my D850 images in NX2
While that was doable, I didn't feel (not a 'scientific' proof or conclusion) that I was getting the best end result doing so

So I finally upgraded my Macbook OS from 10.8 to 10.13.6 (had kept using the old OS since NX2 reportedly couldn't/wouldn't run on any latest versions OS) and installed High Sierra
The OS upgrade went smoothly without any hiccups, and when I was finished and restarted the system, I was happy to discover my old NX2.4.6 continued fully working despite the new OS, after which I installed NX D 15.0

My findings so far
- NX D 1.5.0 is more prone to crashing when using a lot of the Retouching options, and switching fast between them
Maybe my bad, but in NX2 I could easily switch between eg retrieving Highlights and/or Shadows, changing Exposure, Contrast and Saturation, and using multiple (10+) Colorpoints all the time without any problems. In NX D 1.5.0 I have to do so much more carefully, and at a much more leisurely speed, or it will shut down/crash
- On the positive side, the Color points in NXD work as advertised, although I up till now have more problems to apply them in extreme small area's compared to the 'old' ones in NX2
- As NXD works with side cars, I can't save copies of a processed NEF together with a copy of the original unedited NEF
Also, if I, intentionally or by accident, at a later moment, while eg tentatively playing around, click the option to return to the original settings at the moment when the image was taken, all my actions/modifications until then in the 'original file' are irretrievably deleted, and I am forced to start all over again from zero to return to the final 'modified' version
Only work around is to make a extra copy of the processed NEF in a separate folder, and use that as a 'don't touch but make a copy if somewhere in future you want to play around with it ' file
- NX 1.5.0 is in my experience slower with processing any modifications I make while processing a D850 NEF compared to a D850 TIFF in NX2. When eg applying modifications with a Color Point in NX D, I, while I can see the modification in the Navigator preview (which while does give a close up when eg zooming in, but unfortunately can not be enlarged to a larger sized image) have to wait some time before the result show in the full size preview I'm working on
- When I am done playing around with a NEF and want to convert it to a TIFF of JPG in NXD, this also takes a lot more time than I'm used to when doing so in NX2.
When I'm finished doing so while using the designated option, I don't immediately get a TIFF or JPG
Instead I get a 'document' with a non related to the original NEF name I can't open or preview, which only after a minute or so appears as the intended modified TIF or NEF 
In NX2 this conversion is next to immediate (MacBook Pro i7 16GB memory 750+ GB SSD)
- IN NX2 it was possible to only very locally apply any sharpening, eg when only 'sharpening' an eye/the eyes in a portrait, by using Control Points in combination with the 'Unsharp Mask' tool
That option however seems to be lost/deleted in NXD 1.5.0
- Finally I at least for me important difference
In NX2 I can convert a file into B/W with the B/W filter options, which also allows modifying the result by, apart from Exposure and Contrast, varying the impact of color settings from eg green, yellow, blue and red, similar to using filters of those colors when shooting B/W film
In NX 1.5.0 that is no longer possible, I can only use/only have the B/W option in the Picture Control menu, which lacks the afore mentioned 'color filter' option
Maybe not a biggie for many, but at least for me it is

So bit of a mixed bag for me
I'm happy to be able to shoot NEF's with my D850 I can process in NX D 1.5.0
On the other hand I do miss the stability, speed and some of the above mentioned options of NX2
As however I find that despite/contrary many user reports NX2 keeps working under High Sierra, I'm equally happy I can still keep using NX2 for processing my D800, DF and D7100 NEF's, and also, if I want to, make some of the above mentioned modifications in converted D850 Tiff's and JPG's