NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: John Geerts on March 03, 2018, 21:28:52

Title: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: John Geerts on March 03, 2018, 21:28:52
A quick (and non-scientific) comparison between the Nikkor 85mm  f/2 AI from 1978 and the Nikkor 85mm f/1.8  Pre-Ai from 1976  (Both mint samples)

First the  85/2  and second the K version.  Images with the Nikon Df, undeveloped and at true size.

Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: prepalaw on March 04, 2018, 00:55:45
I have in my hand an 85mm AF Nikkor f/1.4D lens.  This is a magical lens for making portraits.  It is an awesome lens for night photography on a tripod.  Hand-held outdoors, this lens does not like weak or unsteady light.  The magic only works under proper lighting conditions.  The headlights of the car are on in the first photo, indicating that the time of day was close to darkness.  Not so with the second photo, which appears to have been taken at an earlier time of the day and/or under better lighting conditions.

I love this lens, but understand its limitations.  This is not the kind of lens to use just roaming around during the day.  If you get up at 3 AM and put the lens on a tripod. Use manual; set the lens wide open; ISO 100 or 200; put the camera on a 3 second delay; and expose for 15 seconds.  Then change to 20; then 10 and 5 seconds.  If the image in camera  review is almost black, you still have acquired data.  In Lightroom, boost the exposure to up to +3.0.  You will be amazed at the detail you have captured in your black photo.

Before taking the shots, you have to focus the camera at infinity - just find a light 10 meters away and put it in focus.

Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: paul_k on March 04, 2018, 02:22:10
Had the 2/85 AI as a replacement for my 2.5/105 Ai back in the 80's for the extra half stop, although more importantly I switched because I had serious problems getting images without movement blur/shake with the 2.5/105
Admittedly this was due to my constantly working on and over the limit using shutterspeeds of 1/60th and lower handheld, being forced to do so shooting under low light conditions on the max ISO 400 (pushed to ISO 800 if forced to) films of those days (usually Tri X)

The 2/85mm did give better results in that respect, but for the rest I found it a good working horse lens at best, but not a particularly special lens as far as that was concerned

I guess about 10 years ago I got a modified pre Ai Nikkor H Auto 1.8/85, based on its serial number from the mid 60's
After initially not having used it much on my DX bodies, I nowadays have it on my FX bodies regularly, the DF in particular, and despite its age think it has a much more pleasing image rendering then the later model 2/85mm AI

A couple of years also got a 1.4/85mm AF D I use for portraiture and fashion, IMO a very special lens
Giving a beautiful image rendering when used wide open, despite/thanks to the ultra thin DoF, but just as capable of razor sharp images when stopped down only a few stops
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: richardHaw on March 04, 2018, 04:17:45
what a coincidence, i am currently writing an article for the 85/1.8K  :o :o :o

i did find that the 85/1.8K has a more pleasing rendering but the 85/2S was better-corrected.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: David H. Hartman on March 04, 2018, 06:09:22
Years ago I printed for a friend who couldn't due to asthma. I was impressed with the 85/1.8 K factory AI. I own an 85/2.0 AIS.  It's OK.

I offered my friend $300.00 ea. for a 105/4.0 AI Micro and the 85/1.8 K. He sold me the 105 but would sell the 85.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Roland Vink on March 04, 2018, 06:38:13
The 85/2 has had a weak reputation compared to the older 85/1.8, but my AIS version has always performed well, consistent with other Nikkors of similar vintage. I wonder if the AIS version has some improvements? Perhaps I should run some side by side comparisons ...
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: rolubich on March 04, 2018, 08:06:41
The 85/2 has had a weak reputation compared to the older 85/1.8, but my AIS version has always performed well, consistent with other Nikkors of similar vintage. I wonder if the AIS version has some improvements? Perhaps I should run some side by side comparisons ...

My 85mm f/2 AIS is quite good too, but I consider it a f/2.8 lens: wide open both resolution and especially contrast (strong veiling pink flare) are very low.
At f/2.8 performance increase a lot but it shine only from f/4 where it's very uniform too. I prefer to use it for landscape (in my opinion it is really excellent at f/5.8/8) rather than portrait.

My copy of 85mm f/1.8 HC is better in the center at wide stops but the sharp area is quite small and it needs to be closed a few stops to become uniform. I prefer it for portrait pictures.

Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: John Geerts on March 04, 2018, 11:09:40
Thank you for all your comments.  Very interesting.

It is striking that Nikon  stopped production of  the 85/1.8 K, and introduced the 85/2 Ai.   An introduction of a lens which seems not better than the previous one.   The above comparision is clear I think. 

Can commercial motives play a role here as a few years later the 85/1.4 was introduced? 

Anyway, I don't think Nikon ever made a 'bad' 85mm lens.  A part of the downsides of the 85/2 do not really play a role any more in the digital age.

And the drawing of the 85/2 is also very nice, but I need to test that more. A big plus is the very small size of the lens, it has the feeling of a standard lens.


A 'portrait' with the 85/2  (were 'the softer' character of f/2 seems to work)
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Jacques Pochoy on March 04, 2018, 12:14:57
I'm a bit surprised at the comparison between the 85/2 and the 85/1.8. While I don't have or used the 85/1.8 K, I find the f/2 AI (latest serial number before AI-s) much better then the usually "bof" appreciation.
As John said, for one, it's smaller then the 50mm f/1.8 G (or almost) and quite efficient for most uses. While it hasn't the DoF of the f/1.4 AF-D or even of the f/1.8 AF-D, it's not a bad one.

Even for portraits I seldom go below f/4 with any lenses but a F/2.8 the 85mm AI is not as "bad" as it's bland reputation. I find it a very useful tool 8)


(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1629/25818840954_98d8e910d1_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FkwiUf)   Les bouteilles... (https://flic.kr/p/FkwiUf) by ArchiVue (https://www.flickr.com/photos/archivue/), sur Flickr
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Jacques Pochoy on March 04, 2018, 12:34:10
And a candid portrait at f/2 with the venerable D200... ;D

(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2889/12303112815_fb4cb3c12c_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/jKbENK)   Petite sieste... (https://flic.kr/p/jKbENK) by ArchiVue (https://www.flickr.com/photos/archivue/), sur Flickr
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on March 04, 2018, 15:14:27
I will check my f2.0 when back home, but your results do not match with my memory of it.
I don’t have the f1.8, only the AF version.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: richardHaw on March 04, 2018, 17:24:03
http://richardhaw.com/2018/03/04/repair-new-nikkor-85mm-f-1-8/

here's my recently published article. check out the sample images there  :o :o :o

in my observation, the 85/2 has less smoother transition between what's in focus and what's not in focus. I do notice that the K has less of a tendency for CA but the 85/2 is sharper and has a flatter field if I recall it.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: richardHaw on March 04, 2018, 17:31:53
i also noticed that the 85/2 series images has a more "modern" look to them and the contrast is better.  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: John Geerts on March 04, 2018, 17:34:40
Today with  the 85/2 at f/2

Playing Park
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: John Geerts on March 04, 2018, 17:36:56
http://richardhaw.com/2018/03/04/repair-new-nikkor-85mm-f-1-8/

here's my recently published article. check out the sample images there  :o :o :o

in my observation, the 85/2 has less smoother transition between what's in focus and what's not in focus. I do notice that the K has less of a tendency for CA but the 85/2 is sharper and has a flatter field if I recall it.
Thanks for the link, Richard.  ! 
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Steven Paulsen on March 04, 2018, 18:01:03
Thanks for the link & discussion of an old classic. I happen to own the 1969-1971, H with a factory conversion, Ai ring. I bought it many years ago at a camera show for small money. While the glass is near perfect, the knurl on the focus ring is gone and the mount is severely worn.

Mounted on all previous Nikon bodies there was a loose slop that shifted the lens when clicking a shot. The only mount that seemed a match/transplant was from my old Ai'd 50/1.4, & that is still useful with issues. (The 50's mount is tight but the lens' aperture tab gets slammed too hard & I get camera shake.)

Fortunately, the 85/1.8 with my "new" D800, I got a winner. It serves quite well as a short portrait lens.

I may have a question on the latter sometime soon.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Steven Paulsen on March 04, 2018, 18:06:41
I goofed 8)
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: John Geerts on March 04, 2018, 19:13:38
The Nikon 4T Close up lens and the 85/2 work good together.  (The 4T and the 85/1.8K is not a very good match)

Crocus at f/2
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Jacques Pochoy on March 04, 2018, 19:46:44
I think I have one of those close up lens buried somewhere... Must find what diameter it is  :o
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Roland Vink on March 04, 2018, 21:11:50
It is striking that Nikon  stopped production of  the 85/1.8 K, and introduced the 85/2 Ai.   An introduction of a lens which seems not better than the previous one.   The above comparision is clear I think. 

Can commercial motives play a role here as a few years later the 85/1.4 was introduced? 
According to some sources, the 85/2 was designed as a portrait lens so was intentionally designed with low contrast (at wide apertures at least). Maybe coatings were changed to make it a better general purpose lens, as I don't have the impression that the colours and contrast of my AIS 85/2 are inferior to my 105/2.5 or 135/2.8.

I don't think Nikon purposely downgraded the 85/2 to make way for the 85/1.4, although it is interesting to note the the styling of the AIS 85/1.4 is very much like a fatter version of the K 85/1.8. The 85/2 was introduced in early 1977 at the start of the AI era, while the AIS 85/1.4 didn't appear until 4 years later, which is too much of a time lag. Even if the 85/1.4 was already in development in 1977 it would have only been the very early stages.

During the early-mid 1970s many of the older lens designs from the 1960s were replaced with new designs which were much more compact (a trend which is sadly lacking these days). To achieve the goal of a more compact design, some lenses such as the 85/1.8 and Nikkor-UD 20/3.5 lost some speed in the process. This may give the impression the new model is inferior but I think the main goal was to make the lens smaller.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: John Geerts on March 04, 2018, 21:34:41
The headlights of the car are on in the first photo, indicating that the time of day was close to darkness.  Not so with the second photo, which appears to have been taken at an earlier time of the day and/or under better lighting conditions.
Same conditions. The time difference is one minute, cloudy.  12:51:16  and 12:52:25  both PM
First file   85mm/f2   ISO 100   1/2506 S     Second file  85mm f/1.8  ISO 100  1/3205 S
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: John Geerts on March 04, 2018, 21:38:00
According to some sources, the 85/2 was designed as a portrait lens so was intentionally designed with low contrast (at wide apertures at least). Maybe coatings were changed to make it a better general purpose lens, as I don't have the impression that the colours and contrast of my AIS 85/2 are inferior to my 105/2.5 or 135/2.8.

I don't think Nikon purposely downgraded the 85/2 to make way for the 85/1.4, although it is interesting to note the the styling of the AIS 85/1.4 is very much like a fatter version of the K 85/1.8. The 85/2 was introduced in early 1977 at the start of the AI era, while the AIS 85/1.4 didn't appear until 4 years later, which is too much of a time lag. Even if the 85/1.4 was already in development in 1977 it would have only been the very early stages.

During the early-mid 1970s many of the older lens designs from the 1960s were replaced with new designs which were much more compact (a trend which is sadly lacking these days). To achieve the goal of a more compact design, some lenses such as the 85/1.8 and Nikkor-UD 20/3.5 lost some speed in the process. This may give the impression the new model is inferior but I think the main goal was to make the lens smaller.
Interesting.  Thanks for the additions, Roland.  I guess the whole Series E  was also size-driven.? 
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on March 04, 2018, 22:48:25
Interesting.  Thanks for the additions, Roland.  I guess the whole Series E  was also size-driven.?

Series E was cost driven which usually translates into making things smaller and more lightly built, or using less expensive materials and manufacturing processes.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: John Geerts on March 07, 2018, 23:49:20
Thanks Jack.  Yes. of course.



The 85/1.8 K version
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Erik Lund on March 08, 2018, 16:13:57
Series E was cost driven which usually translates into making things smaller and more lightly built, or using less expensive materials and manufacturing processes.
Plastic parts are used extensively,,,


Strangely the internal design apears unnecessarily complex,,,
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Fons Baerken on March 08, 2018, 16:55:12
1(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4799/40692512221_1f8d1d1a91_o.jpg)

Df, 85mm f/1.8H@f/1.8

2(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4801/40692510921_c62252a2d7_o.jpg)

Df, 85mm f/2 @f2
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: John Geerts on March 08, 2018, 17:13:58
Thanks for your comparison.  For me it confirms that the 85/2 works better with the close up lenses 3T and 4T, sharper central and more control over DOF.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Gil Aegerter on March 08, 2018, 17:38:38
My first Nikkor lens was an 85mm f1.8 K, bought in 1979. I still have it. Over the years it got used a lot, but in the early 90s I got some sand in it and set it aside to clean and never came back to it. Last summer I decided to dismantle and clean it, and now it works pretty well on my D5200. Here's a shot on film with my old F2 back in the 90s.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: David H. Hartman on March 09, 2018, 00:14:01
The 85/2.0 AI and AIS may trade some image sharpness at portrait distance for more pleasing bokeh in common with the 105/2.5 AI and AIS.

Regarding 85/2.0 AI and AIS...

"performance declines considerably at wide stops near minimum focus (both conditions together), otherwise this lens is excellent even wide open" --David Ruther


The underline is mine.

Regarding 105/2.5 K type (Xenotar)...

"(large rear element [late non-AI with black front]), performance declines at wide stops near minimum focus (both conditions together), otherwise this lens is excellent even wide open --David Ruther


I used David's lens evaluations before finding Bjørn's. David says the same about the 105/2.5 AI and AIS as well as the 135/2.8 AI and AIS. Nikkor - The Thousand and One Nights says the same about the 105/2.5 AI (Xenotar version). This would indicate a design feature.

At a portrait distance I can say the 85/1.4 AIS eats the 85/2.0 AIS' lunch as does the 105/2.5 AI and AIS from f/2.0 to f/5.6 after which they are the same in sharpness. My 85/1.4 is in the league with my 105/2.5 AIS. The 85/1.4 may be ahead by a nose, too close to call.

Near minimum focus if maximum sharpness is desired from the 85/2.0, 105/2.5 and probably the 135/2.8 all in AI or AIS try f/5.6.

Dave Hartman
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Fons Baerken on March 10, 2018, 10:12:12
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4794/40680433002_2b42e206a8_o.jpg)

bokeh shot from the 85mm f/1.8K
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on March 10, 2018, 17:05:16
My 85mm f/1.8 K arrived last night. Looks like the only use it has seen was sitting on a shelf.
It performed well in the low light of the parking lot.

I’ve never had a lens in the range between 55 and 105, but I always liked 55mm focal length on a D200. It is long enough to get some subject separation, but short enough that you don’t need to be far away. 105 is a bit too long at times.

I’m excited to get it out in the daylight to try it out.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: John Geerts on March 10, 2018, 17:21:52
Good luck with your 85/1.8K  I am sure you will like it.

Shot these portraits in dim pub light, the last one even with ISO 12.800 with the Nikon Df
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on March 14, 2018, 05:39:45
Some characteristics:

Slightly bluish cast to backgrounds when wide open:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4797/39842045875_0c955bc4e0_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/23GGUar)803_0094 - Copy (https://flic.kr/p/23GGUar)

It handles bright points of light in a nice but distinctive way.

I've cropped the images to show these more closely. They are less prominent in larger images.
Six pointed specular stars:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4773/25928104237_43dec05915_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Fvbj4X)803_0259_c (https://flic.kr/p/Fvbj4X)

Hexagonal highlight bokeh:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4782/26929810598_4df60a5c65_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/H2Gjth)803_0077 (https://flic.kr/p/H2Gjth)

The rendering of the lens is rather charming and old fashioned. I feel like converting everything I take with it to black and white.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: richardHaw on March 14, 2018, 07:45:49
that's what I found out too as i mentioned in my blog (check my sample pictures) :o :o :o

the pictures have "soul"  ::) if it sings it will be like little richard  ::)
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on March 14, 2018, 08:06:17
that's what I found out too as i mentioned in my blog (check my sample pictures) :o :o :o

the pictures have "soul"  ::) if it sings it will be like little richard  ::)

Yes it definitely has the 3D look you wrote about. I’m not sure why, maybe focal length but it reminds me of my old TLR.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: richardHaw on March 14, 2018, 08:47:13
this is what some Zeiss lovers call "perfect imperfections" :o :o :o

the true Sonnars used this philosophy ::) maybe an optical engineer can help us understand this better but according to what little I know it just means that Zeiss used the imperfections to creative effect in order to make it useful instead of detrimental to the final image and make these imperfections compliment each other. another that comes into mind are the true Tessars wherein the center is sharp but the edges are terrible. this gave the image a nice unique look and this is why true Tessars are on the slow side. Zeiss made 2.8 Tessars but they were terrible compared to the 3.5 Tessars.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: David H. Hartman on March 15, 2018, 07:59:58
The 85/2 has had a weak reputation compared to the older 85/1.8, but my AIS version has always performed well, consistent with other Nikkors of similar vintage. I wonder if the AIS version has some improvements? Perhaps I should run some side by side comparisons ...

I suggest testing these lenses at 2 meters and 5 meters using f/1.8, f/2.0, f/4.0 and f/5.6 for the K and f/2.0, f/4.0 and f/5.6 for the AIS. If you find a strong winner in the range of f/2.0 to f/5.6 I think you'll find the difference will disappear by f/8.0. You may find the AIS softer at f/2.0 and perhaps f/4.0 at 2 meters with good bokeh. At 5 meters you may find less difference. 

Dave
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: richardHaw on March 15, 2018, 08:31:44
I suggest testing these lenses at 2 meters and 5 meters using f/1.8, f/2.0, f/4.0 and f/5.6 for the K and f/2.0, f/4.0 and f/5.6 for the AIS. If you find a strong winner in the range of f/2.0 to f/5.6 I think you'll find the difference will disappear by f/8.0. You may find the AIS softer at f/2.0 and perhaps f/4.0 at 2 meters with good bokeh. At 5 meters you may find less difference. 

Dave

I will do a test as soon as my hay fever goes away  :o :o :o

this will make things clearer for everyone.
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Robert Camfield on March 15, 2018, 14:31:04
My observations confirm some of the thoughts expressed below: the 85mm F2.0 (AI, for me) is soft across the entirety of the frame at near distances - say, <4 meters. This appears to hold true regardless of aperture; nor is bokeh particularly good. However, performance improves substantially beyond 6-10 meters, where F4.0 seems to be best for center of the frame resolution.

Robert
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on March 24, 2018, 23:48:02
More from the f/1.8 K
hexagonal bokeh on display

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/805/40101766785_593f49bc5d_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/246E39a)803_0665 (https://flic.kr/p/246E39a)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/809/40285440244_234e361013_h.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/24nTpRW)803_0666 (https://flic.kr/p/24nTpRW)
Title: Re: Nikkor 85mm f/2 AI and 85mm f/1.8 K
Post by: Zang on March 30, 2019, 00:02:50
I have got 85mm f/2 AI with wobbling and dried focus ring for about $100. It is razor sharp at wide open near minimum distance. The below was shot handheld and cropped a bit as I composed randomly.