NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Other => Topic started by: afx on May 27, 2017, 11:35:48
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A while a go I asked about scanning old slides with a flatbed vs. using a DSLR for duplication as I had sold my slide scanner a few years ago. Silly me had forgotten to scan the 1999 South Africa trip before selling it.
All answers pointed to using the DSLR.
So here are some observations:
Input is from Fuji Sensia slides in Reflecta frames (In contrast to the US, it was very economical to shoot slides in Europe in the '90s, I could get a roll of Sensia with development and framing in proper frames (not cardboard!) for less than $5)
They had been stored in boxes in magazines holding 100 each. The boxes are not airtight, so some dust was to be expected.
The sturdy frames make it easy to insert them into the copy adapter.
I obtained a used ES-1 slide copy adapter and BR-5 step down ring from Mike Gorman (thanks Mike!).
The step down ring is needed to mount the copy adapter onto the AFS 60mm macro lens.
Even with the ES-1 in the closest position, the slide will not fill the whole frame, so I get 20MP or less (too lazy to really calculate it). If I remember correctly, the adapter was desinged for a 50mm or 55mm macro, not a 60mm.
I initially wanted to use an LED panel as a light source, but it was too weak to provide illumination for F11 at safe shutter speeds, so I only used them for focusing and the key light source was an SB800.
F11 at ISO 100 with the flash near the lowest power setting. WB set to flash.
On very dark slides (sunsets) I increased the ISO to 200 (too lazy to change the flash output, I could set ISO with a mouse click).
I fired the flash with a radio trigger (Pocket Wizard).
I used qDSLRDashboard (https://dslrdashboard.info/) to tether the D750 to my PC and set Capture One to monitor the incoming folder.
See first attachment.
I used a rocket bulb blower to clean the slides before putting them into the holder.
Initially I used live view on with AF all the time, but that turned out to be a huge battery drain.
With F11, the DOF is sufficient to fix the AF once and be done with it. So I ran this blind.
In contrast to using a slide scanner or the Epson flatbed, the setup kept me busy at all times, constantly exchanging slides and then pressing the shutter (via mouse click on computer).
With a scanner there is always a significant wait time between the scans (it was several minutes with the Canon FS4000), especially if you use multi-pass scanning with an additional dust removal scan.
In the end, the total time spent to get all slides scanned is significantly less with the adapter than with the scanners.
I used exiftool in batch mode to change the capture date in the resulting NEFs to approximate the date the slides where shot.
The flatbed Epson V550 Photo is not much worse than the Canon FS4000 slide scanner I owned previously, but faster and does not require a SCSI connection. The difference between 3200ppi and 4000ppi is pretty much irrelevant, both show the film grain.
So what's the verdict on using the DSLR with the copy adapter:
Vervet Monkey in Krüger Park, 1999. see second attachment
100% screen shot of DSLR copy on the left and Epson scan on the right (the scan would need sharpening), see third attachment.
- Color: Much easier to get accurate colors with the DSLR than with the scanner, even when using IT8 calibration targets. Accurate is still subjective of course, you get the exact color of the slide ;-)
- Sharpness: The DSLR wins, but not as definite as with color, the scans need more sharpening than the NEFs, but sharpen ok.
- Highlights: With the DSL there is much more headroom to fix highlights than with scans. Exposure was set so that there where no blown highlights in the copies.
- Noise/Grain: Both methods show the film grain, but depending on the scanner the scan can be noisier.
I have no noise with the DSLR, only film grain. And still no perfect tool to remove it ;-(
I guess I need reprofile my old copy of Noise Ninja. So far it was too drastic. - Dust: Well, without ICE (the infrared dust scan) there is dust even after fastidiously using the blower. But it is only noticeable in relatively bright areas like the sky and quickly dispatched with the spot remover of Capture One.
F11 makes dust bunnies on the sensor easily visible, so this lead to a sensor cleaning session... - Cost: If you get the copy adapter used, the cost is negligible. Film scanners are quite expensive used and one needs to sell it after use, way too much hassle.
cheers
afx
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Thanks, Andreas! Clear win for the DSLR. I guess the 55 Micro was the original lens for the slide copier. The 55 can be had for 50€ iirc.
5 US$ for Sensia, development and framing?
I used to buy in bulk. 30 for 6.5 German Marks a pop including development, 100 for 6.0 German Marks.
Push was 3 Marks on top. I used Sensia 100 pushed up to 1600 very nice.
Framing was 4 to 4.5 Marks.
The US Dollar was roughly 1.5 Marks.
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Do you sell the copy adapter and step down to me now?
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Using an intense light, spot light, on a negative or slide angled at a steep angle will cause the dust to glow against a dark background. I used a Tensor desk lamp for years to get spotless prints in the darkroom. In my current darkroom I have a 20 degree halogen spotlight in the ceiling for cleaning negatives. If you can see it you can remove it.
Dave
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Do you sell the copy adapter and step down to me now?
Ha Ha I was ready to ask the same question as I have many slides mostly velvia - sensia
Do you think this set up with 55 micro will work on a Crop NIKON or I need extension tubes?
Thank you
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Haha, I'd be interested as well. Still own a bunch of slide boxes, including some BW Agfa slides. Thank's for posting!
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Tanks for the detailed input. I have just found that my Df can be used with my old Nikon bellows 2, so my setup will be 55mm 3.5 and the F slide copying adapter. (See here http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php/topic,5961.0.html )
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Thanks guys, but for now I will hold on to it.
I have a friend who wants to use the setup and there are still a few old shots I should have a look at.
cheers
afx
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Frank, I could borrow you mine. I also own the 55mm micro Nikkor, the ES-1 and PK-13 tube to get the slides to 1:1 reproduction.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7410/27521228770_24e368f230_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/HVXuuj)DSC_1643-Edit (https://flic.kr/p/HVXuuj) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr
I decided f5,6 would be enough. No need for any DoF so no real need to stop down. Also, who cares about shutter speed. Your "subject" won't move either way, so you do not have to worry about motion blur. I used the kitchen window as lightsource
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Buddy: If you can spare it for a week or two, I will cover return packaging & posting and add something. Of the thousands of shots I'd like to show some I took with the FM-2n and the 1.4/50 Ai long ago on Sensia 100 pused to 1600 ASA.
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Thousands of shots in 2 weeks? Now that I want to see :D
3 items will be boxed up and on their way to Haribo country ASAP :)
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this is how I digitise strip film with the ES-1 :o :o :o
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Thousands of shots in 2 weeks? Now that I want to see :D
3 items will be boxed up and on their way to Haribo country ASAP :)
No. I want to digitise a small selection. Have to finish one thing here, then I am ready to search for the pictures I like to show. I will happily share the results here in a tread called "From Frank's slide boxes".
Scotland, Fish Market, Ireland, ....
Sometimes I do not recall if the pictures were taken on negative film. Yet most of my stuff is slides.
Thank you. If the setup works for me I will go and buy one for myself!!!
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Mongo agrees with your conclusions AFX and has been using the set up below for many years. Indeed, just gave away his dedicated Canoscan FS4000US slide copier to a club member who still insists on using one.
Mongo uses the following similar set up. Images 1 to 3 are of a better quality Nikon slide copier PB-5 with its own slide copier attachment.
image 4 is of a much more obtainable and inexpensive after market unit (this one is made by Pangor but there are many other types)
Always clean your slides and remove any dust you can before copying them. It is false economy to think the fancy scanners can remove all this stuff - they cannot and it takes for ever for them to try and they can not do as good a job as you can.
when starting off , take a few test images to get a good light reading/balance or setting up your flash. Set you white balance to suit. Use a reasonable depth of field setting , say, f8 or f11 (although, slides have a very flat field in any event (these are Mongo’s words). Your ISO can be as low as your camera will go because even if long exposures are required (and usually they are never required), there will be no movement between camera and subject - these move as a whole (if it does at all). Set to aperture priority (+ or - the suitable amount of EV) or manual if you think you have nailed a consistency. If you group your slides in lots of the same frames/thickness, you may only need to focus once and the rest in the same lot should not require re-focusing.
Once these things are done (and they really take very little time to set up), you can copy a slide in as much time as it takes you slot it in, press the shutter , remove the slide and slot in another. etc. Probably one every seconds.
BTW - image #1 talks about a 50mm macro. This should read 55mm macro. Mongo uses the f2.8 version but the f3.5 is equally good for this purpose as is the 60mm AF macro
cheers
Mongo
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Dear Mongo -
Is that a Nikon D200 on the bellows? Are you able to get 1:1 with this setup or did you have to use additional spacers? I am also trying to copy my slide collection and have been searching for a suitable setup. Thanks.
K.
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I have used PB-4, and for sure I can get 1:1 with D200 and 55mm, but that is to big when the sensor is just about half the area of the slides. 55mm was too short (or said in other words, PB-4 was too long) to get the 1:1.5 for getting the whole slides. With FX-camera 1:1 is the right magnification, and the setup works as a charm.
I prefer 55mm/3.5, because that has no CRC, so it works just as well even if the focus ring is not set to its shortest distance.
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Is that a Nikon D200 on the bellows? Are you able to get 1:1 with this setup or did you have to use additional spacers?
Krishna,
It looks like a D200 to me.
The problem with copying slides with DX is 1:1 takes a cropped section out of the silde. I tried with a D300s and PB-4 and did not achieve joy. As I remember the minimum extension of the PB-4 was too long for a 55/2.8 Micro and I couldn't move the PS-4 slide copy attachment far enough out to use a 105/2.8 Micro. I think a PK-12 was required to mount the D300s on the PB-4 complicating the setup.
I believe 0.75x is what's needed to copy the full 35mm slides with a DX dSLR.
Dave Hartman
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I just sent my stuff to Frank, otherwise I would try to find out which combination would give you the right enlargement for DX using the 55mm micro Nikkor and ES-1.
I do believe that the 55mm and ES-1 on themselves should be enough to get the job done though.
Krishna, David, reads D200 on the camera.
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Thanks Dave, for sharing your experience with D300s. That was the reason for my question, but the PB-5/PS-5 with D200 looked intriguing, so wondered how 1:1 was achieved with the set up. I have a D200 sitting on the shelf, so thought of setting it up for copying all my slides and negatives, but looks like it will be a chore.
Hello Solitaire. Thanks for the suggestion on 55mm and ES-1. Will surely try. Also, aging eyes are hard pressed to see things clearly! The number was blurred from the front in the picture, but the back of the cameral looked like a D200, therefore the question.
BTW, it is great to be on the forum. I am a new member, having joined yesterday. Been following the group as a 'guest', but I liked the way you all contribute and share your experiences, so decided to join the group. Yet to write my intro, but will do so in a day of two.
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Thanks to Buddy I can use his copier for a week to try it.
I grabbed a random file from the shelves, found some honeymoon snapshots and tried away.
I find it hard to position, so it is a position, position, reposition, focus till it fits, then step on the balcony and shoot into the very bright overcast sky --- for every frame.
I'd like a feeder for more throughput. I have a lot of post production work later anyway.
Good thing is my slides are quite clean in the Leitz-Files, much better I guess than it will be with the ones oin the projector cartridges...
PS: I see also, that the idea of a "sharp" image with high definition has changed as technology advanced
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I think a PK-12 was required to mount the D300s on the PB-4 complicating the setup.
It's not. The trick is to mount the camera in portrait orientation, and rotate the camera when mounted. Works at least for D200, D300, D700 and D800E.
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Thanks to Buddy I can use his copier for a week to try it.
I grabbed a random file from the shelves, found some honeymoon snapshots and tried away.
I find it hard to position, so it is a position, position, reposition, focus till it fits, then step on the balcony and shoot into the very bright overcast sky --- for every frame.
I'd like a feeder for more throughput. I have a lot of post production work later anyway.
Good thing is my slides are quite clean in the Leitz-Files, much better I guess than it will be with the ones oin the projector cartridges...
PS: I see also, that the idea of a "sharp" image with high definition has changed as technology advanced
Not just a week Frank. If an urgent need arises I will let you know, and until then, feel free to give it a try, regardless of whether it takes a week or a month.
Film can be sharp in a modern terms as well
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/399/19736696789_f50fa3d8a0_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/w54JkF)2015-07-22-0015 (https://flic.kr/p/w54JkF) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/534/19928505691_84eb2a38a6_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/wn1NrH)2015-07-22-0014 (https://flic.kr/p/wn1NrH) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/483/19897413906_d65379ca97_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/wjgrWs)2015-07-22-0006 (https://flic.kr/p/wjgrWs) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/514/19735558350_3ae8e10d81_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/w4XTVq)2015-07-22-0008 (https://flic.kr/p/w4XTVq) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr
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It's not. The trick is to mount the camera in portrait orientation, and rotate the camera when mounted. Works at least for D200, D300, D700 and D800E.
Thank you for the correction regarding the PK-12.
Dave
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Dear Mongo -
Is that a Nikon D200 on the bellows? Are you able to get 1:1 with this setup or did you have to use additional spacers? I am also trying to copy my slide collection and have been searching for a suitable setup. Thanks.
K.
Dear K sorry Mongo could not answer you earlier (been in hospital suddenly for the last 4 days).
Yes, it was a D200 at that time. Mongo now uses full frame cameras on the same set-up. Cannot recall at the time if 1:1 was obtained. What Mongo can say to you is that with some fiddling of both bellows on the PB-5 and dedicated slide copier, the whole area of the slide is captured within the new image. That is certainly the case with the full frame cameras. From memory, it worked with the crop sensors also but it was harder to achieve and perhaps not quite the total area of the slide. Mongo is sorry it has been too long ago to give you more accurate answers concerning the crop sensor with this set-up. Hope this helps.
PS - just had a thought that if the D200 and this set-ip does not quite cover the slide area, a wider lens may do the job. While Mongo has not had the need to try this, he does have a 40mm Nikon enlarging lens for a dark room enlarger . If this were set up properly on say, the PB-5, in theory, it should give superb results and maybe capture the whole of the slide area. Just a thought.
PPS- While Mongo has no current need to try the suggestion above, he might just do it anyway to see if it works well. The only problem is that Mongo now no longer owns a crop sensor camera............Maybe the D800E will do for the test by setting it to crop mode just for this test...????. If time and health permit, might just try it for the sake of knowing the answer.
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I can be very stupid at times. Haha! I forgot to switch of "Auto ISO" so I managed to scan my slides at 5000 ISO. No wonder I find them less detailed than they looked in the view finder and zoomed in Live View.
As Buddy is so generous, I hope for some bright days to catch full spectrum light from my balcony on a tripod with ISO 100. HAHAHA!
So this is ISO 4500:
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An this is ISO 100 on Tripod:
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PS: Picture of Joseph Weizenbaum taken in Berlin 1998 with my FM-2n and the 1.4/50mm Ai. ES-1 Slide Copier to D600 from Fuji Sensia, iirc 400ASA.
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Thank you for this informative post. I've been using the D750 with 60mm micro and ES-1 set iso100, f8 and 1/15 with a backlit light source. I had problems with WB especially but will experiment further based on info provided here. I will now use the D810 probably.
2 examples from slides that are appr. sixty years old.
(http://www.visualcue.photography/img/s5/v132/p2361881659-5.jpg)
converted via Silver Efex:
(http://www.visualcue.photography/img/s12/v177/p2361881830-5.jpg)
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Super, Peter. Do you know who took these shots?
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PS - just had a thought that if the D200 and this set-ip does not quite cover the slide area, a wider lens may do the job. While Mongo has not had the need to try this, he does have a 40mm Nikon enlarging lens for a dark room enlarger . If this were set up properly on say, the PB-5, in theory, it should give superb results and maybe capture the whole of the slide area. Just a thought.
You need longer focal length. That is the way to get less magnification when the minimum extension is set.
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Last one for today, have to go back to work. Fuji Sensia100 push developed to 1600ASA (all shots FM-2n & 1.4/50mm Ai at f/1.4, because light levely were so low):
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Super, Peter. Do you know who took these shots?
My grandfather. He passed away in 1989 at the age of 85 years. So I can't pass the compliments to him. One thing that surprised me how he always took his photos from either below or at eye level. He was close to 2m tall so he had to ben his knees for that. He got a good eye, I think. Here are some more (in BW because I need to do some color corrections).
(http://www.visualcue.photography/img/s10/v114/p2361962874-5.jpg)
(http://www.visualcue.photography/img/s12/v174/p2361963173-5.jpg)
(http://www.visualcue.photography/img/s6/v136/p2361963587-5.jpg)
I still have to process lots of slides of photos taken by him, my dad and myself. I thought about renting a pro scanner but from this thread it is my understanding that it is best to continue using the ES-1 and the
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I think there is virtue in not converting to black and white even if colors are slightly off. I think color gives a dimension to the past which is often lost in black and white, so color, even if faded, shifted or wrong from the start, is worth preserving if it was in the original image.
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I think there is virtue in not converting to black and white even if colors are slightly off. I think color gives a dimension to the past which is often lost in black and white, so color, even if faded, shifted or wrong from the start, is worth preserving if it was in the original image.
You are right. In hindsight I should have used the color versions (especially for the first one), Unfortunately one got lost so I need to rescan that one. These are the color versions:
(http://www.visualcue.photography/img/s11/v32/p2361989169-5.jpg)
(http://www.visualcue.photography/img/s9/v87/p2361989398-5.jpg)
(http://www.visualcue.photography/img/s7/v157/p2361989666-5.jpg)
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Superb collection, Peter!
Jack: It depends. Look at the Computer Pioneer Weizenbaum (known for ELIZA) in Color and black and white. He is dead for a while so most customers order the shot as black and white although I always offer the colour version too. Most of my Computer Pioneer Collection was taken on black and white film anyway...
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You need longer focal length. That is the way to get less magnification when the minimum extension is set.
thanks Asie. Had not thought of that. Mongo simply thought that wider angle lens means less magnification. Have not tried any of these variations except the set-up Mongo posted and on a full frame. There is a lot of "play" and adjustment possible in the twin bellow set-up of the PB-5 and the fact that the slide holder also moves substantially closer and further from the focal plan which may make up for some of the short comings of focal length the lens. Will try the 40mm in any event if opportunity presents itself to see what happens.
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Peter, that 2nd one is amazing in color! The colors really complement the image well
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Has anyone used a 105/4.0 Bellows Nikkor or similar enlarging lens?
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Dear Mongo, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Please feel better. God speed in your recovery.
Frank, Asie, Buddy - great comments all around and very helpful discussion. Thank you all.
K.
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Has anyone used a 105/4.0 Bellows Nikkor or similar enlarging lens?
I have a pb4 and PS4 along with a 105mm macro Elmar and a Fuji 75mm enlarging lens which I hope to use this weekend to see how it works out. I have high hopes for the enlarging lens due to flatness of field design.
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Has anyone used a 105/4.0 Bellows Nikkor or similar enlarging lens?
The EL nikkor lens range is far cheaper for the similar focal lengths.
I also prefer and use the PB-4 plus PS-4 attachment.
About 7 years ago I had a project in mind to digitise a few hundred old slides my parents captured in the 50-60's(mainly Kodachromes), so I located the PB-4 and attachment.
But after a week or two of testing with some of my own film slides and found a useful lens to use(Tamron 28-75/2.8), I then went up to collect the suitcase full of mounted slides ... only to find out that they were all thrown out!
Sis found the suitcase, opened it to find mouldy slides .. and threw them out.
Some people have no idea!
Anyhow, my initial playing with the D300 I found the Tamron zoom lens to be more than adequate on the PB-4
Eventually, I got the D800 and initially tried to use the 50/1.2 with no real improvement, but reverted back again to the Tamron.
Still yet to get a proper macro lens for it, and the 105/4 bellows lens has always interested me .. but I found a few EL Nikkors 75, 105 and 135 for decent money .. so went with them.
Never had much of a chance to use them all that much tho .. and what little I did, I can't recall if they work any better than what the Tamron lens got me.
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I have a 105/4.0 AI Micro which is the same optic as the 105/4.0 Bellows Nikkors but without the minimum 105mm extension at infinity. The less distance the lens is from the rear bayonet of the PB-4 the room there is for positioning the PS-4.
I've got av135/5.6 EL-Nikkor mounted with 52mm female threads at both ends. I think I have a 100/5.6 Componon-S also. My 75 is a 75/4.0 EL-Nikkor which isn't on of the better EL-Nikkors.
Now if I can get some time I can do more than talk trash. :)
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The Rodenstock Apo Rodagon-D 1X f/4 works well. 39mm thread mount, cheaply adaptable to Nikon mount. Look for a used one, since new ones are $800.
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two very old from the 1980ies, whe I just started with cheapo film from Eastern Germany:
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Free for good home!
Nikon PS-4
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You want to give it away?
I am interested
Just PN me your PayPal for Shipping coverage
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you always give such cool information about photography, I am grateful to you and read with pleasure!