NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: elsa hoffmann on May 05, 2017, 21:31:23
-
Forgive me if this has been discussed elsewhere - a search didnt reveal such a thread.
I am interested in knowing what you think of the Leica Monochrom images - specifically pertaining to the beautifully rendered tones the camera/lens gives. Almost blends in a different way IMHO of course.
Do you think it is different to what you get from the usual DSLR suspects?
-
Leica monochrome is one of my dream cameras. Even the ancient Kodak 760m was my dream camera.
I was simply attracted to the camera with the sensor of the non-Bayer type which is free from the artifact associated with the demosaic algorithm. I was about to go for a FOVEON sensor camera made by Sigma, as it can function as poorman's (not rich, not young) Monochrome.
That said, Leica's characteristic rendition is largely thanks to their lenses and the sensor design dedicated for them, color or monochrome. So, you should have to invest on the lenses as well as the camera.
-
And Leica gear is not *inexpensive* .... plus the reports on the esoteric issues such as rust (sic) on the sensors chill my enthusiasm.
-
The stuff dreams are made of. I recently saw images taken with the Leica Monochrom and Leica Noctilux-M 50mm f/0.95 ASPH Lens. The photographer was a talented lady - with a borrowed set up I believe - and the rendering of the images was stunning to say the least. If I heard correctly - the 2 images I saw, was also shot at f 0.95. I was drawn to the beautiful rendering of the tones. In no uncertain terms
-
And Leica gear is not *inexpensive* .... plus the reports on the esoteric issues such as rust (sic) on the sensors chill my enthusiasm.
Thank god for that bit of news - makes me feel a LOT better than I dont own one :) :)
-
Please don't take me as an eyewitness to any Leica issues. I haven't used a Leica for decades myself, apart from the odd handling of Erik's Leica(s).
The price level is indubitable though. One really needs a banking account with a significant number of trailing zeroes in it before even considering this brand.
-
Noctilux is my dream lens, too, but you would need a Leica body to fully enjoy its unique rendition...
Another big issue on the lens side is that their coatings are prone to fog especially in humid climates while the lenses of Japanese makes were free from the problem in the same environments. I used to use Leica lenses in 1990s and found that too many samples of them (mine or many I've checked at the shops) suffered from the problem.
I've never used or checked out any of the current Leica lenses, so I don't know if the problem has been addressed since.
-
I own and use the leica M Monochrome. I had one earlier, sold it and bought it again. I think its a fantastic camera in the way it almost have a film like quality, especially high ISO. Very sharp and acute files straight out of camera which gives a impressive detail richness, even better than the D800E IMO. Impossible to recover blown highlights and a great ability to lighten shadows. One have to print the files to really enjoy them. A platinum palladium print is the ultimate price for a great photo from this camera.
-
Here are some more files.
-
Lovely shots Børge!
-
Just when I was happy Leica is not such a great idea - Børge posts looovely photos :)
Børge - how much editing did you do - and do you find processing images from this camera different to - say the D800?
Which lenses do you own and why
-
Files from Monochrom are amazing but as Akira has pointed out, it requires the investment in the system which is beyond expensive
The debayering is interesting: I had tried to do the poor man debayer:
http://www.jtwastronomy.com/tutorials/debayer.html
but apart from destroying a trial camera (not sure if it was because it was like Humpty Dumpty which couldn't be put together again or if I wrecked the filamentous connectors at edge of sensor) I still wouldn't have the colour balancing and processing that Leica engineers had done to even the output.
Anybody else less cack-handed had a go at debayering a DSLR?
-
I owned a Leica G III for a few months. If I'd owned a few Nikkors for it I might still own it.
I had a Leica M4 overnight. The price was too high. I should have made a counter offer. I think I would have liked an M4 with three lense for candid photos of family.
It's ashame the price is so high those who made Leica what it was can't afford them anymore.
Dave Hartman
-
Clearly Leica's are for those who can afford them. No argument there. And there are enough people who can afford them.
Whether I am one of those is not important right now. I might meet a nice young rich virile man that can cook and afford to buy me gifts... I should be ready with my list!
-
Just when I was happy Leica is not such a great idea - Børge posts looovely photos :)
Børge - how much editing did you do - and do you find processing images from this camera different to - say the D800?
Which lenses do you own and why
I have a preset in SEP that I use as a starting point for some tweaking of the files. I usually spend less than two minutes to finish the editing. I also use yellow or orange filter to get some more contrast and enhance skintones. The files are very different from the d800. If you increase the exposure in post, after underexposing during the shoot, the grain structure becomes very nice and pleasant in the MM files. I never seen the same happen in a bayer file. I currently own the grand total of one 50mm Summarit f1,5, but I have had the 35 mm Summicron and a couple of Voigtlanders. The 50mm f1,1 and the 50mm f1,5. The 35mm Summicron is the best of the lot and I will get that lens again. 35mm is the most versatile focal length IMO. I have never paid for a leica, only swapped gear. I gave up the first MM for a brand new D4s. I got it after swapping it for a D3s. The lenses also came to me this way 8) It has nothing to do with my bank account. I can assure you that! Trade ups can be a way of getting what you want, if you are able to bare being in the short end of the swap, sometimes ;)
-
......................... I have never paid for a leica, only swapped gear..............
Just when I thought of marrying you.
You are confirming my thoughts on the processing - thanks for replaying
-
Already taken and god only knows why anyone choose to employ two woman to pick on them... ;)
-
just shoot film :o :o :o
the files look lovely, but for that price it better be ::)
-
I suppose this one is affordable ...
-
Hi Elsa,
try the new Fuji X100f. Its B&W Mode is very good.
Harald
-
just shoot film :o :o :o
the files look lovely, but for that price it better be ::)
Film is absolutely a way of getting bw look you want. Tri-x gives a consistent look, have nice DR and contrast, that can be manipulated with developer, developing times and pushing and pulling the film. Its easy to to develop at home and could be "scanned" with a dslr. So if you have and old film camera lying around, just do it.
-
Film is absolutely a way of getting bw look you want. Tri-x gives a consistent look, have nice DR and contrast, that can be manipulated with developer, developing times and pushing and pulling the film. Its easy to to develop at home and could be "scanned" with a dslr. So if you have and old film camera lying around, just do it.
Except that Kodak stopped making Tri-X Pan sometime in the '90s and replaced it with New Coke 400TX which is NOT the real thing.
Dave who developed more underexposed Tri-X from PR photographers than any other living person.
My alter ego in the day was Mickey Mouse as The Sorcerer's Apprentice. I had a picture of Mickey in my darkroom. I never explained the significance of this to my customers.
-
You might have far more experience than me David, but I have yet to develop a roll of TX that wasn't usable. But sure, spots, stripes and all other mishaps occur in film developing, but that is a part of the charm and "ritual" of analog sensors. At least for my kind of analog photography :)
-
I suppose this one is affordable ...
If I remember correctly, this smartphone camera offers the Noctilux mode simulating the very shallow DOF. :D
-
Except that Kodak stopped making Tri-X Pan sometime in the '90s and replaced it with New Coke 400TX which is NOT the real thing.
Tri-X was a traditional round grain film; it had a gritty-grainy, high contrast look that street and rock music photographers loved. It also could be push-processed several stops, so it could get printable images however low the light. Whether its merits ever matched the legend is another matter - but a quick way to start a fight on any film users' chatroom is to express doubts about Tri-X.
In the 1980s a whole raft of tabular grain films appeared. The tabular grains use less silver, so the films were cheaper to make but could be sold at higher prices because they were "technologically more advanced" (where have I heard that recently?). Kodak's 400 speed tabular grain film was T-max, which is still sold. Like the other tabular grain films, however, T-Max performed less well than Tri-X (as all the other tabular grain films performed less well than their round grain equivalents) and T-max sales collapsed. Kodak still wanted to reduce its silver use, so - according to Steve Anchell - they then reformulated all their films using dye linkage because that also allows less silver to be used. So Tri-X became TX, but TX still has rounded grains and high contrast.
-
Les,
I gave T-max films a spin and never quite like them. The old Tri-X got improved (really) from time to time until 400XT. The H&D curve changed from the classic with a bend at zone VI. My standard development of Tri-X was to pull it by rating it at EI 200 in D-76 2:1 and N-1 or about 10% less development. The reason I used 2:1 was I tested 1:1 and 3:1 and decided to split the difference between kind of mushy grain at 1:1 and finer but harsh grain at 3:1. I printer mostly with dicronic color head (diffusion) and my standard paper grade was #3. This was a way of avoiding paper grades #0 and #1. Pulling the roll was a way I found it make use of the zone system. I later found that Ansel Adams recommended N-1 development for roll film cameras.
I would like to shoot a roll of B&W once in a while as I enjoy printing in the wet darkroom. Seeing the print come up in the tray was always magic to me.
The other film I liked was Super-XX 4142 a sheet film. I think it got discontinued about 1990 as digital took over color separation for the press.
Those wicked people at Kodak are paying for their silver skimping sins. Kodak should be the No. 1 maker of digital image sensors. :)
Dave
-
I suppose this one is affordable ...
Yes, sort of but it can't give the "Leica Glow." It can't!
Dave
-
Having shot the Monochrom several times here is my opinion. The files are nice, they do require developing a pp technique to get the best out of them as they are fairly flat straight out of the camera. The files are very malleable - you can get the look you want.
For my taste Monochrom images are in a class by themselves. They aren't as good as a silver print and they are different from a converted color digital file. Ralph Gibson used one for his book Mono and they are probably some of the best Monochrom images I've seen. There are also many who post on getDPI under Leica "Fun with the Leica M Monocrhom" who are quite accomplished.
-
Les,
I would like to shoot a roll of B&W once in a while as I enjoy printing in the wet darkroom. Seeing the print come up in the tray was always magic to me.
The other film I liked was Super-XX 4142 a sheet film. I think it got discontinued about 1990 as digital took over color separation for the press.
Dave
Super XX was introduced in 1940 on an acetate base with the code 6142. Super XX 4142 was introduced in 1965 and was the same emulsion on an Estar = polyester base. Super XX was originally sold in both sheet and roll film, but the roll formats were replaced by Tri-X in the 1950s and from then on only sheet film was sold. It had a thick emulsion, which reduced its resolving power, which I have read was why it was replaced, although for large formats that presumably did not matter as much which was why it persisted in sheets. I have also read that there were OHS problems with the emulsion. In a back-to-the-future note its characteristic curve was very long and straight - just like digital, so it would be very easy to emulate.
B&W film is a relaxing change from the frenzied pursuit of "features" and "innovation".
-
How do the Voigtlander lenses compare to Leica? I ask this given +ve reports on the 58 1.4 ....
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2016/12/22/voigtlander-nokton-58mm-f1-4-ii-lens-review-going-retro-by-craig-litten/
http://www.photozone.de/reviews/360-voigtlander-nokton-58mm-f14-sl-ii?start=1
And this 58 MF is affordable
-
Having shot the Monochrom several times here is my opinion. The files are nice, they do require developing a pp technique to get the best out of them as they are fairly flat straight out of the camera. The files are very malleable - you can get the look you want.
For my taste Monochrom images are in a class by themselves. They aren't as good as a silver print and they are different from a converted color digital file. Ralph Gibson used one for his book Mono and they are probably some of the best Monochrom images I've seen. There are also many who post on getDPI under Leica "Fun with the Leica M Monocrhom" who are quite accomplished.
John - you echo what I hear elsewhere. Thank you
-
My reason for starting this thread is that I was at a photo meeting where 2 photos of this very accomplished lady was exhibited.
http://morgantrimble.com/day-black-white-monochrom/
I refer to specifically the image of the man sitting on a chair against a wall (full body) and the image of the man with hand in front of his face
-
She does not say which lenses were used, but the OOF appearance in some of the images is unattractive - especially the extreme right of the one of the man sitting in front of the wall, but also the leaf background on the left of the one with the child on the tricycle. And looking at the buildings in the distance of the picture of the Noon Gun the distortion is marked.
-
She used a 50mm (f.95)
Not sure how wide open she shot - but I believe it was fairly wide open
-
It would not be the first lens where extreme performance in one area compromises performance in other areas, but for US$10,000 I would hope for more than just bragging rights about depth of field.
-
She does not say which lenses were used, but the OOF appearance in some of the images is unattractive - especially the extreme right of the one of the man sitting in front of the wall, but also the leaf background on the left of the one with the child on the tricycle. And looking at the buildings in the distance of the picture of the Noon Gun the distortion is marked.
I see these areas as beautiful contrasting the sharp main subject. Tastes may differ.
/Eric
-
Elsa, I belive we are talking about two different cameras. The Leica M Monochrom with CCD sensor and the Leica M Monochrom (Type 264) with CMOS sensor. I have the first one :)
-
Børge. I promise I wont hold that against you :)
-
... It had a thick emulsion, which reduced its resolving power, which I have read was why it was replaced, although for large formats that presumably did not matter as much which was why it persisted in sheets. ...
Super-XX 4142 was used for color separations is what I was told. When digital pre-press took over pretty completely there weren't enough other users for Super-XX to keep it profitable (or so I surmise).
I tested about five different films when I first started printing 4x5 and choose Super-XX probably because of the long straight line H&D and no shoulder. The printing paper could shoulder the highlights as needed. :)
Dave Hartman
-
If one is shooting with the intention of making B&W images I believe a mind set change is given when the camera has B&W film loaded rather than color. In the same way a Leica M is always loaded with B&W and other digital camera that offer a Picture Control when set to Monochrome will change the mind set.
When I'm shooting B&W I'm previsualizing how colors will translate to B&W. This just comes from shooting a lot of B&W. You see the colors red and green but the colors aren't important. What is important is if they will both be rendered the same shade of gray. If so a filter may be required to separate then so for example a light red filter might be used to lighten an apple and darken the leaves to give the separation one sees in color.
Anyway I invite those who shoot cameras with a picture control or similar to set the camera to monochrome. This should change the mind set even if image review isn't use.
Dave Hartman
-
Super-XX 4142 was used for color separations is what I was told.
That is correct. Because of the long straight characteristic curve all the colours could use the same exposure, which made it much easier. But it was Kodak's standard (relatively) fast consumer roll film (200) until Tri-X was introduced.
-
When I'm shooting B&W I'm previsualizing how colors will translate to B&W. This just comes from shooting a lot of B&W. You see the colors red and green but the colors aren't important. What is important is if they will both be rendered the same shade of gray. If so a filter may be required to separate then so for example a light red filter might be used to lighten an apple and darken the leaves to give the separation one sees in color.
yes, this is true. i also feel sad at times when there is a very colourful subject in front of me but I have FP4 loaded in my camera :o :o :o
i tend to look for textures and lighting contrast when I shoot BW ::)
-
I believe Tri-X replaced Super-XX in roll films in1957. I would have been in first grade then. I bought my first real camera in 1970.
Dave
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zj5yWj2QzQ
:o :o :o
-
I processed hundreds of Tri-X rolls in Microdol-X and Paterson tanks. Ancient times. But who knows ?
-
Phase One announced a 100MP medium format monochrome digital back. :o :o :o
https://www.dpreview.com/news/9075547921/phase-one-launches-100mp-black-and-white-medium-format-iq3-achromatic
-
Something to consider? I guess one would have to manage without at least a kidney and a cornea to pay for the haberdashery :)
-
It is the answer of Profoto to Sony sensors statement.
-
the new Phase One:
Availability and Pricing:
The IQ3 100MP Achromatic Digital Back is available for order now through Phase One Partners: www.phaseone.com/partners Contact your local Phase One Partner to arrange a demo.
The IQ3 100MP Achromatic is available for purchase now in a limited number. Shipping will begin in early August.
The Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price for the IQ3 100MP Achromatic digital back is 49,990 USD.
All Phase One XF IQ3 Camera Systems are supplied with a free lens of choice from the Schneider Kreuznach Blue Ring prime lens range, valued up to 6,990 USD.
Manufacturer Suggested Retail Price for the XF IQ3 100MP Achromatic, including XF Camera body and free lens choice is 54,990 USD.
Not sure what my kidneys are worth.
-
The going rates are listed at sellyourorgans.com 8)
-
The going rates are listed at sellyourorgans.com 8)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :-[