NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Bjørn Rørslett on November 10, 2016, 15:31:39
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Nikon announced today another entry point DX camera, the D5600. Obviously the company works along different target lines as the launch takes place immediately after the release of high-end products such as 19/4 PC-E Nikkor and AFS 105/1.4 Nikkor E. The D5600 continues the dumbing-down trend initiated by its predecessor, the D5500. One has to use Snapbridge and/or Blu-Tooth and an app on a 'smart'phone to get such basic features as GPS, to take but one mind-numbing step on the downwards spiralling ladder.
The D5500 D5300 remains the pinnacle in the D5xxx series, for better or worse. At least it makes a nice IR camera for me ... And with an updated aGPS file loaded, its GPS tagging works pretty well too. No additional gadget is required.
As gleaned from the above, my enthusiasm for these never-ending robot-engineered 'new' designs is held with abated breath. However, and fortunately many would say, there are lots of people out there thinking differently from myself or have their own requirements. NG would like to call on any member feeling the D5600 and its ilk are the answer to their prayers. Post your impressions or thoughts in this thread, either for the D5500, or the new D5600.
Corrected a typo: the pinnacle for sure is the D5300, not any of its successors. Sorry for any inconvenience or confusion. Thanks go to Øivind Tøien for pointing this error out.
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i was expecting more from them :o :o :o
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While I think always-on connectivity where image transfer is automatically taking place in the background (instead of wifi where the connection has to be re-etablished after the camera has been off with iOS devices) is important, from what I've read it doesn't work as well as expected in the Snapbridge enabled cameras that are out so far. Rather than introduce more cameras that support this technology, Nikon should improve it to the point where it works for 90% of the users and smartphones on the market, or revert back to a different technology which works better, and only when the technology has been implemented in a near-universally approved and acclaimed manner, then spread it to other cameras in the lineup. I fear that Nikon risks ruining its reputation by bringing out this technology in more cameras before it is mature, fully functional and reliable.
The touch screen in the D5 works ok for reviewing images, scrolling and zooming. I use this at times. Implementation of the scroll bar functionality in the D5600 seems sensible.
Another feature which should be implemented in the D5x00 series particularly is better live view AF. I see people using this series of cameras often out there, relying entirely on the LCD for composing and timing their images, and I think many must be frustrated at Nikon's LV AF performance. Canon has made great progress in this area with their latest dual pixel AF system and I think it's vital that Nikon show that they can do something similar as well, so that the use of the camera for either photography or video, when taking advantage of the flexible LCD screen, becomes more fluid.
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Too late for photokina
Would be fine if it helps for Nikons sales,
but Nikon is having a hard time showing that they are technologically top when Canon has the Dual-pixel Af and they have got nothing to compete
Snapbridges usability is not too attractive so far as I could see on the D500
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i was expecting more from them :o :o :o
Actually I was expecting less from them! :p
To see only 'this' much dumbing down is surprising .. ie. I reckon it could have been worse.
One question re GPS(if Bjørn or anyone else could elaborate on) .. does the bluetooth system in the camera not allow direct connection to a bluetooth GPS device?
That is, directly connect a bluetooth logging device to the bluetooth system in camera, like a foolography device can .. or do you have to use the whole snapbridge system(bt and wifi) to connect to a smartphone of some type.
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A good question. I have to have a look at a D5500 as it should probably behave similar. If the USB port is like that seen in a number of other recent Nikons, a Foolography Blutooth-based GPS device might fit and be able to 'hi-jack' the data transfer. However, in these cases Nikon apparently also offers their own GPS module?
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Apparently Nikon is hurrying up for popularizing SnapBridge, but is suffereing from the delay of the software development. Another bummer is that the previous wifi-enabled models are orphaned including D750 that I use.
The lack of SnapBridge software for the PC and Mac is also annoying. Bluetooth is common among the notebook computers, too.
I once tried Nikon Mobile Utility, and was disappointed by the awful image quality of 2M thumbnail. Better to use the integrated cameras in the smartphones.
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Ilkka, the alternative to Canon's dual pixel AF is on sensor PDAF, which can be found in Sony sensors. Both Sony and Fuji use this kind of sensor now in their mirrorless APS-C offerings. Nikon should buy those sensors and thus be able to fix liveview AF. On sensor PDAF works with adapted Sony SLR lenses, so should work for Nikon as well, since Sony and Nikon DSLR lenses use the same kind of AF motors. Problem solved, if only Nikon bought those sensors. They are used in the two year old Sony A6000, which is the same price range as the Nikon D5x00 cameras, and the D5600 is brand new...
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The essential difference between the on-chip PDAF sensor by Sony and the Dual AF sensor by Canon is that the PDAF pixel of the former is used only for the focus info and thus the lack of the image info has to be interpolated. The Dual AF sensor offers both the focus info and the image info.
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I have owned the Oly OM-D E-M1, Sony A6000 and currently own the Sony A7 and A7 mk II. The interpolation required for on sensor PDAF has so far caused no issue what so ever.
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I've also used NEX-5R/T and Nikon 1 J1 with on-chip PEAF sensors and share your experience. The problem is that the on-chip PDAF sensors are defunct in low light situation and switched to CDAF only, which slows down the AF speed and often leads to hunt. The low light performance of the dedicated PDAF sensors of DSLRs are superior in this regard (on condition that there is no discrepancy between the focal planes on the image sensor and the AF sensor).
The CDAF only Panasonic mirrorless cameras and Olympus E-M5 MkII tha I used worked admirably in this regard, and I felt no need for the on-chip PDAF sensors.
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Some of my lenses are quite fast, so I've not had issues in low light, yet. I guess that f/3.5-5.6 kit lenses may be problematic, though. With f/2 or faster lenses AF is just fine.
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Yes, my Zuiko-M 25/1.8 worked admirably even in (quite) low light, whereas Panny 14/2.5 tended to hunt a bit. The m4/3 lens I enjoyed the most has been so far is Samyang 7.5mm/f3.5 fisheye, though. :D Highly recommended!
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reading the comments here made me realise more that Nikon is out of touch with it's clients :o :o :o
they used to be pretty good at this
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that Snapbridge is intended for social media and should not be relevant to many here. It bridges a DSLR through a smartphone to sites such as Instagram that do not accept uploads from computers.
Dave Hartman
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that Snapbridge is intended for social media and should not be relevant to many here. It bridges a DSLR through a smartphone to sites such as Instagram that do not accept uploads from computers.
Dave Hartman
It also works as a remote controller (albeit lacking a few obvious features).
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You are correct, Dave.
However, this customer base probably would regard all the Nikonese gizmos unnecessary and complicated thus rather use their smartphone cameras directly instead of any DSLR. They might lack the understanding of image quality, or even don't care these days.
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that Snapbridge is intended for social media and should not be relevant to many here. It bridges a DSLR through a smartphone to sites such as Instagram that do not accept uploads from computers.
That's right. You cannot transfer RAW files via SnapBridge in the first place.
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Only up to 2 M 'previews' no RAW no TIF, which is a tell-tale sign that 'social' media are not concerned about quality on any level.
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Few images published online are more than FullHD resolution, as monitors typically are around that resolution anyway and to have text around the images as in a layout, the images are still smaller. 2K/FullHD therefore seems like a reasonable size of an image to transfer to a mobile phone. For larger images, printing or publishing in print, a computer can be (should be) used. E-mail platforms have quotas and transferring large jpgs on a routine basis would quickly fill them and annoy the recipient as well. When I photograph people at events or portraits, many people never want to see anything larger than that since they don't print the images. Those that do print do want the images in high resolution, so I give them a USB memory stick or DVD with the images at different sizes.
If I understand correctly, full size jpgs can also be transferred in the Snapbridge app (via wifi, by selecting the images from the thumbnails on the mobile app). But to me a mobile phone doesn't seem like the right platform for large image files. The storage space is small (Apple in particular give 16GB on the base model and charge a lot for the models with larger memory and there is no "upgrade" option, if you run out of storage, you're stuck with that problem) and transfer times of large jpgs are slow even with conventional wifi implementations. By contrast, transferring images from an XQD card via USB 3 reader to internal drive happens at 250MB/s on my PC. That's about ten raw images per second. Even the D5 + WT-6A transfer speed is just 130 Mbit/s per second, so the cable connection is 15 times as fast as the wireless.
I have the Manfrotto digital director which allows me to connect my iPad mini 4 to my camera for remote control and transfer of images. However, the handling of large jpgs is awkward on the mobile device. I bought it to use as a video monitor basically. In theory it allows transfer of large jpgs but in practice it is like bringing an elephant in a glass shop. I just don't see mobile devices as the right platform for handling large image files.
I don't object to Nikon trying to find a different solution as I found the D750's conventional WiFi to be annoying to use - the connection is cut off if the camera power is recycled and it has to be re-established from the settings menu on the iPhone. I have not used the high end Nikon WiFi transmitters (i.e. WT-5, WT-6) but I read the connection is lost if the camera goes into standby mode! This is totally ridiculous. (I'm not sure if that applies to the latest D5+WT-6). A pairing of two devices should only have to be done once and thereafter they should always be connected if in range, unless the connection is explicitly terminated by the user. If I shoot in my home studio, my iPhone connects to the WLAN for my internet connection and there is no way to make it prioritise the D750's Wifi as far as I know; if I want the connection I have to select it manually every time I turn the camera on. One reason Nikon gave for the hybrid Bluetooth LE / WiFi implementation is that Nikon wanted people to be able to maintain the wifi access to internet on the mobile device, and at the same time receive the (arguably small) files from the camera via bluetooth.
For serious remote camera work e.g. at a sports stadium, or if you want the images to a laptop in the studio while shooting and do not want to use a cord, the WT-6/7 and connection to a laptop would seem to be the appropriate solution.
I don't understand why people object to transfer of 2K images - that's about the size of images people post here on nikongear as well. If nikongear allowed posting 36MP images and people had 8K monitors and internet transfer speeds would accommodate that - then I would understand that 2K is too small. But this is not how images are used online. Even FullHD images do show quality differences between images and online presentation can be done well, or it can be done poorly.
I totally understand that people object to pairing difficulties, slow transfer times, and limited functionality on the mobile applications, if these problems are present. Hopefully Nikon is able to address these over time and improve the functionality.
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..... Hopefully Nikon is able to address these over time and improve the functionality.
I suspect that this will be very unlikely!
As for pairing difficulties, you get that anywhere and everywhere.
My last phone, had much trouble pairing via Bt to the truck radios for the purpose of handsfree phone use.
It paired easily with my own car radio tho.
My new phone pairs instantly with the truck phones now. It's just Bt .. and manufacturers use idiotic protocols to confound users!
What I think is happening is that Nikon are being as cheap as cheap can be.
It wouldn't surprise me if they used the lowest grade/brand of Wifi chip in the cameras, and similarly with the Bt chip too.
End result will be manufacturer induced uselessness for the lifetime of the device.
You get the same result in computer hardware, and why many people think that Macs 'Just Work' .. whereas PC's have issues.
PCs don't have issues in themselves, the el cheapo chip manufacturers cause these issues. Choose and use good quality devices that use chips from respected chip makers and almost certainly there won't be 99% of the issues that people report on.
I reckon if you break open a snapbridge enabled Nikon camera and located the Wifi chip, it's probably some 10 yo design from Via or some other lowball chip manufacturer.
if this is the case, all the best hoping for Nikon to improve it.
Until they commit to a philosophy that gives the user the best experience, which may involve a slight higher cost base, nothing will change.
Nikon at this stage are in defense like mode, looking to save a few cents where they can per unit. This will drive customers further away, at Nikon's future expense.
I'm sure someone else has mentioned this previously too .. but until Nikon realise that whoever they allocated to steer their software department course is totally inept, there is no future for any of their software implementations.
If it's outsourced, then they need to change quick smart, before more damage will be done to the brand. If it's internal, they need to outsource(to a capable provider) even quicker!
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They use Bluetooth LE so that power consumption is reduced (since Snapbridge is active even when the camera is "off", power usage is an important consideration). However, BLE is slow for transferring large amounts of data. Probably some of the problems that users have are that BLE is not widely used so only relatively new phones support it and there may also be issues on that side.Canon is now using BLE also (M5); it will be interesting to see if they can get it to work well.
I don't think low cost is the primary motivation for the BLE/WiFi chip choice. The D500 is an expensive camera; they could have use any components available. I think the main problem is that they rush out stuff before it is ready. Of course, the D5600 is a less expensive model and component prices may come into play here. This may be why in the D3400, some features were omitted to make it possible to include Snapbridge and keep the price low.
I'm wondering if an external dongle (with antenna) could be used to improve BLE/WiFi performance of Snapbridge. Perhaps EMI and antenna design within the confines of the camera chassis which is packed with other stuff are causing some of these problems. Nikon's new radio controlled flash (using an external component the WR-R10) works brilliantly.
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I post a link to a thread in the Fredmiranda Nikon forum about a software called Airnef, http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1459951 (http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1459951)
There are further links in that post, which seem at least to me to explain more about how Nikon's implementation of Wifi and BT works. There is also some info on Snapbridge. The Airnef software can be made to work with Snapbridge enabled cameras, by going through some extra loops and hoops.
(To the moderators: I hope it's ok to post a link to another forum, since it seems very relevant for understanding a bit more about Wifi, BT and Snapbridge.)
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Thanks. I wonder how fast the built in wifi of Snapbridge compatible cameras transfers images to laptop using this airnef software.
So Nikon could make things easier by allowing a direct wifi connection to be established without snapbridge, and things would be better in the sense that third party software could be used for wifi control and image transfer without use of Nikon's app to initiate the connection. Perhaps Nikon can do this with a FW upgrade.
I wonder if sending Nikon some feedback would help.
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Just found out that D5600 cannot be released via IR remote ML-L3. :(
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Just found out that D5600 cannot be released via IR remote ML-L3. :(
Now, that is a really dumb dumbing down of the feature set.
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Yeah, that's a real bummer. Strangely D3400 retain the IR sensor (even though only on the front) for ML-L3.
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Even the D600 has ML-3 support ... and the D5xxx up to at least D5300.
The pinnacle of the D5xxx series is without any doubt D5300. I'm pleased I got one as foundation for an IR modification. A red camera body of course as it is for IR only :D
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That is really brainless thinking, removing the IR remote. I have been struggling with the same on Nikon 1 AW1. Last week I got myself a WU-1b to play with using a smartphone as remote release, just to find that it causes the camera to switch into program (P) mode, with no way of adjusting shooting parameters on the phone in the Nikon app. Well at least it retained exposure compensation and ISO so I sort of worked for the moon shot I tried, but then with wide open aperture, as it did not know the camera was on a tripod. Oh well, at $16.50 off ebay it was an inexpensive experiment, and I could sit in the warmth of my cabin fire repeated moon shots, and with no remaining vibrations from touching the camera.
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D5500 still has the IR sensor, but I agree that D5300 is better featured.
I stopped looking at Nikon 1 Jx bodies because they dropped the IR sensor after J2. I was thinking about a Jx body as a potential platform for the long lenses. I'm not interested in V2 or V3.
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Bjørn, when you in the initial post wrote that "the D5500 remains the pinnacle in the D5xxx series, for better or worse. At least it makes a nice IR camera for me ... And with an updated aGPS file loaded, its GPS tagging works pretty well too", you actually meant the D5300, right?
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The D5600 accepts a remote in the GPS port: " Wireless remote controllers: WR-1, WR-R10 (available separately). Remote cords: MC-DC2 (available separately). GPS units: GP-1/GP-1A (available separately)"
I understand that if you want to use Nikon's GPS device, then the port would likely not be available for remote triggering, but if the GPS info comes through other channels (or if you don't need it), then MC-DC2 or WR-R10/WR-T10 can be used to trigger the camera.
I use the WR-R10 as a radio transmitter for flash control now with the SB-5000 (on radio AWL compatible cameras; I didn't find information in the specifications on the D5600's compatibility with this system; probably then not compatible) as well as for remote triggering my cameras when it is so cold that the cord of a cable release becomes too stiff. To me it seems very good that this trigger works as a wireless remote trigger with most cameras.
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Ilkka, you probably realize that no one would like something as flimsy as WR-R10 sticking out from the side of a camera. It also makes the tripod work awkward, especially in the portrait orientation. In addition, it interferes with an L-bracket.
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Bjørn, when you in the initial post wrote that "the D5500 remains the pinnacle in the D5xxx series, for better or worse. At least it makes a nice IR camera for me ... And with an updated aGPS file loaded, its GPS tagging works pretty well too", you actually meant the D5300, right?
Yes, my bad. I'll go back and edit to remove any doubt.
The red camera in front of me is labelled D5300. It is the only one of the D5xxx series I can recommend. Not mandatory to have it in a red version, though.
I perused some comparisons on web sites that claimed D5600 supports GPS via the USB port. If this claim holds, one should be able to use a suitable Foolography device instead of the awkward GP-1/1A from Nikon. No cables. It would still be possible, although inconvenient, to use a dedicated cable release through the Foolography unit.
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Ilkka, you probably realize that no one would like something as flimsy as WR-R10 sticking out from the side of a camera. It also makes the tripod work awkward, especially in the portrait orientation. In addition, it interferes with an L-bracket.
Ok, the port is in an awkward place, but so are all the ports if one is to use an L bracket. Still, normally the L brackets can be mounted in such a way that there is a couple of centimeters space between the camera body's left side (port side) and the bracket so there should be enough space for the WR-R10 if the bracket is properly designed for the camera. After the L bracket has been mounted, it should be able to protect the WR-R10 from being bent or hit.
I don't have any problem keeping the WR-R10+A10 mounted on my D810 but it mounts to the 10-point connector in the front. There is no interference with my L bracket. I see it more convenient than using a cable release because I don't have to wrap the cable around the camera or lens when putting it in the bag. I can see that a small device or cable sticking from the GPS port from the left side is an inconvenience especially when packing it into a bag.
For me, optical triggering is not a good solution because there is a significant and inconsistent delay between trigger press and actual actuation of the shutter. So I would always prefer electrical or radio based trigger to an optical one.
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D800/810 and higher models are designed for more advanced usage. An accessory port on the front is more convenient and interference-free. Canon moved the accessory port from the side to the front on 5D MkVI for the same reason.
I'm not big fan of the mini/micro USB and HDMI ports for the outdoor use anyway.
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The red camera in front of me is labelled D5300. It is the only one of the D5xxx series I can recommend. Not mandatory to have it in a red version, though.
For those who don't need GPS, D5500 is also worth considering. It is fully compatible with the new AF-P lenses (with the latest firmware) and retains the IR remote sensor. Yes, you can choose a RED one, too!