NikonGear'23
Images => Themes, Portfolio Series, PaW, or PaM => Your Weekly Blog => Topic started by: Bjørn Rørslett on October 19, 2016, 16:55:31
-
Background for the suggested change in policy and posting format
Based on the experience with the 'Daily Blog' run in 2016, the NG Team has decided to reduce the possible rate of submission, plus change the format of the subforum itself. Suffice it to say these measures are intended to help our members be more attentive to the quality of the submitted work.
While the notion of 'stream of consciousness' indubitably can be valuable, it mainly works on an individual level and for a shorter period of time. On a community level, it can tend to lower the signal to noise ratio of users' contributions. The pressure to post something, no matter what, every day is in itself non-conducive to quality work and thus can alienate participants as the days pass by. Even the most talented of us hardly can deliver consistently peak results day in and day out.
For the entire NG community a more appropriate format has to be established. The NG Team suggests the following policy:
- The submissions will be at a recurrent interval to be decided (see the poll): either weekly, bimonthly, monthly, or per quarter.
- Each member can only post 1 (one) image in the given period. You can, however, replace your submitted image at any time until the end of the period.
- No contest as such is implied. The contributions will not be ranked.
- A member does not need to participate in all periods.
Please cast your vote in the Poll to help us decide what format to use in 2017.
-
Every other week should read: biweekly :)
-
Biweekly can be and usually are understood as twice a week.
The poll explanation is adjusted to indicate we are referring to something occurring every other week, ie. twice a month.
-
In order to avoid ambiguity, how about: fortnightly :D
-
Feel free to edit. No problem.
-
I had a premonition this week on these decisions to come to the fore, but i disregarded it as being paranoid.
-
Fortnightly is every two weeks. Its meaning is quite unambiguous.
Every other week should read: biweekly :)
-
Well, at least that small linguistic hurdle should have been taken care of.
-
Suffice it to say these measures are intended to help our members be more attentive to the quality of the submitted work.
...Please cast your vote in the Poll to help us decide what format to use in 2017.
Thank you!
-
In my experience, personal and professional, any community needs a playground,
where rules are set simple and open and partizipation and engagement are stimulated and honored per se.
Low thresholds should allow for a wide variety of input.
There is life in it, therefore will it cause some rumbling an fuzzing (noise), but that's not the key.
The key is that selection and low frequency is contra productive for any individual to start growing into something better,
and 'open daily' is indeed very helpful for that.
[No public (toilet) facilities. Closed daily.]
-
So long as you can start a thread in other sections (such as "Critique", "People, Portraits, Street, PJ & Cityscapes" etc.) anytime, I don't think that lowering the submission rate would lead to lowering the enthusiasm of the members.
That said, I think "every week" is good enough: it reduces the submission frequency by 1/7, which is fairly significant.
-
So long as you can start a thread in other sections (such as "Critique", "People, Portraits, Street, PJ & Cityscapes" etc.) anytime, I don't think that lowering the submission rate would lead to lowering the enthusiasm of the members.
That said, I think "every week" is good enough: it reduces the submission frequency by 1/7, which is fairly significant.
The main source for lowering submission is a restriction of just a single image per period. That, plus longer periods, should help improve the situation.
While I personally fully understand the wish of showing one's work frequently, this approach blurs the sense of critical appraisal of one's achievements. Little or no harm is done being forced to reconsider one's production for a short period of time. Besides, as Akira correctly points out, images can be posted at any time elsewhere on NG.
-
This whole site is one big playground!
-
I agree with the spirit behind the proposal to change the format.
I have not participated - or followed - the thread much but it is likely I would do it more if the proposed changes take place.
There is nothing stopping anyone opening a personal thread and updating it every day with new pictures if they so wish.
-
This whole site is one big playground!
True, speaking for myself. But I'm not fainthearted trying things and getting feedback.
Instead of reducing the frequency I'd prefer to see it deleted after a certain amount of time, for example after rolling 32 days (a month and a day),
no questions asked (will say: scripted).
Good captures will survive that, lesser shots will go with grace.
-
It is a central part of the NG philosophy that submitted content should preferably stay available.
Thus actively deleting content is not going to happen. The exception of course being with stuff that is in violation of site guide lines; however, such posts are a negligible minority.
The problem of information glut has to be addressed in an earlier stage, namely, trying to prevent it from taking place in the first place.
-
I agree with the spirit behind the proposal to change the format.
I have not participated - or followed - the thread much but it is likely I would do it more if the proposed changes take place.
There is nothing stopping anyone opening a personal thread and updating it every day with new pictures if they so wish.
Well, that would lack the community.
It also suggests that some 'grass rooting' is OK to get to the desired result.
I understand the desire for quality. Appreciate it in fact.
Still I feel like something is taken away and a loss.
I'd like a more differenciated approach, educational low frequency - high quality, pic exchange only in one thread, competition and rating in another, plus open, high frequency, low lifetime (like a modified each day)... just my five cents.
[edit]sorry, passed Bjørns post. I learned in my professional life that strict deletion in certain short living areas helps keeping everything else clean of debris, rubbish and grass root grow. Well, not my decision, just my offering. [/edit]
-
The only aspect "taken away" is treating NG as an arena for which anything goes. NG is not Facebook or Instagram. One could instead say we are inducing a better sense of how photography works as a vehicle of visual expression.
Contributors need to be more conscious as to the quality of their work. That is the simple fact underlying the proposed change(s). Lower posting rates in a theme thread means more time can be spent enjoying and discussing the pictures. Ranking images against each other in a kind of contest is not what we envision. Thus no contests and no competition for "best" submission.
-
I can say yes to that ;)
Also: Repeat Bullet point from post one;
No contest as such is implied. The contributions will not be ranked.
-
I believe it should be more a matter of self discipline than the application of mechanical rules. Self discipline could avoid falling into what I call the "Californian Syndrome".
-
This is a good thing for NG.
I for one observe enough Snapchat/Instagram "noise" through this household's teenager's activity. Knowing I don't have to encounter a similar haste here brings comfort.
-
I agree with the spirit behind the proposal to change the format.
I have not participated - or followed - the thread much but it is likely I would do it more if the proposed changes take place.
There is nothing stopping anyone opening a personal thread and updating it every day with new pictures if they so wish.
My thoughts exactly. I voted weekly, but a longer interval would be OK. I don't even turn on the desktop [photo] computer every day.
-
I believe it should be more a matter of self discipline than the application of mechanical rules. Self discipline could avoid falling into what I call the "Californian Syndrome".
Please tell more about the Californian Syndrome? If possible...
EDIT: OK, I get it.
-
Most votes are for weekly submissions.
I see that only as an addition, not as a restriction.
I for one will be judging those weekly images with pleasure as I have and as I will continue to do so everywhere else. Life is a contest :)
May I contribute some colors symbolically with an image I made in Florence.
Do you see the gate or do you see the garden.
-
Lovely color. The garden.
-
:-[
-
Please tell more about the Californian Syndrome? If possible...
EDIT: OK, I get it.
;)
-
Hear, hear the arrogance that crept into this discussion is despicable, you just want to kill the beast and the ones that faithfully contributed their efforts on the pyre with it, suggesting it was all bad out there, ...
You should be quiet in the first place, thank you mam.
-
The idea of the 'Daily blog' has been given opportunity to prove itself in practice. It does not work well for the site as a whole.
Thus, an adjustment of the format is called for. This poll and any discussion in its wake are the necessary steps to iterate to a hopefully better approach. It should be possible to discuss these matters in a civil, helpful manner.
The 'Daily blog' will be allowed to run its course and thus end at 31 Dec, 2016.
So far the majority of [voting] members are in favour of weekly entries. The poll will run for some while to see whether the result stands.
If we decide to switch to the format 'one image per week', this will entail starting each new period on a Monday. A quick glance of the calender shows we then commence the new format Monday 2 Jan, 2017. Each period is self-contained and thus independent of any others.
-
Just to make sure: this discussion relates to the required change of the 'Daily blog' format only. It has no influence whatsoever on other areas of NG.
Thus, feel free to post as before. There is no restriction as such on members' productivity. All we ask is that members should think twice before they post images, which is a helpful practice anyway.
-
Hi Bjorn,
so it is allowed to post my daily Image in Critique ore somewhere Else? Just theoretically.... ;)
Harald
-
I haven't followed the daily blogs much because of lack of time, so this takes me somewhat by surprise. Could someone name the thread where quality is below threshold and therefore led to the proposed policy changes?
-
Hear, hear the arrogance that crept into this discussion is despicable, you just want to kill the beast and the ones that faithfully contributed their efforts on the pyre with it, suggesting it was all bad out there, ...
You should be quiet in the first place, thank you mam.
Please be so kind and elaborate as to what and who you are referring. Thank you.
-
Hi Bjorn,
so it is allowed to post my daily Image in Critique ore somewhere Else? Just theoretically.... ;)
Harald
Of course. Potentially more useful if receiving comments and critique is important.
-
I haven't followed the daily blogs much because of lack of time, so this takes me somewhat by surprise. Could someone name the thread where quality is below threshold and therefore led to the proposed policy changes?
The admins all agree the concept needs a brushing up and refinement. The current suggestion is an attempt in that direction.
One has to strike a balance between the wishes of an individual and the benefits of the greater community here. So there will be a change. The members can help decide the details for that forthcoming revised format.
-
I am subsciber to a daily newspaper John, one of our regulars at 366/1 and Chis work for daily blogs or newspapers. IMO it does not raise the quality to reduce the frequency.
There are bad newspapers and good ones and even the best newspapers have bad contributers and even the best contributers have a bad day sometimes.
One picture per week is a completely different format.
-
As a daily contributor I feel personally attacked and insulted.
Not a word of appreciation to all the participants after 293 days of contributing; instead the announcement that 'quality' suffers, there is too much 'noise' and a nasty comparison to 'Facebook and Instagram'.
This is censorship. Nothing more, nothing less.
-
It is quite a task one takes on, when trying to take and post a picture every day. I am trying it my self, but I have decided to publish my pictures on my personal blog to avoid to spam the forum. If I am lucky I can spend two hours in between work and the kids activities and it is impossible to avoid posting thrash pictures. But I have decided to try and see if I can manage a full 365 days. Quality suffers but hopefully I can learn a thing or two, at least about my self :)
-
I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about what the Crew* is attempting to do here. I truly do not think that anyone should take this personally. There is no intent for censorship or insult. The Crew is simply trying to think ahead about the greater good of the forum. So let's all contribute to the discussion without accusations or anger. And remember that we are a multi-lingual group attempting to use English as a common language. Thank you. ;D ;D ;D
Now -- about these blog-like topics. I've been thinking this through.
When we have blog topics where multiple members contribute multiple photos per day, that topic soon eats up server space and bandwidth. Your multiple contributions are lost when placed in such threads because they cannot be searched out either by name or by topic title. Your contributions are worth more to Nikongear than that! However, the Crew is still willing to let you have a multiple contributor topic, but it must be subject to some curation to keep the length under control. There is nothing objectionable about attempting to control server costs for a non-profit forum. Nobody here is getting paid to run this forum. We are all volunteers.
And -- about submission quality. I've been thinking this through also.
The Theme topics ( which feature a maximum of one contribution per day per person) are successful and popular because the Theme of the submission is well-defined. The length of Theme topics is self-regulating. And the quality of Theme topics is self-regulating because nobody wants to post bad photos to a Theme thread, only their good ones. And photographs may be searched for based on the Theme title.
Threads started by an individual member such as Image-a-Day or Image-a-Week are successful and popular because the Contributor is curating their own submissions for quality. Sifting through one's own work to find and present the best of it in a Portolio setting is a task which contributes to our photographic growth. And naturally the length of IaD or IaW topics is self-regulating.
Now -- after you think about server space, bandwidth, photos getting "lost" in long threads, working in Theme mode, working in Portfolio mode AND, finally, Presentation of your Best Work, please contribute some thoughts on how the Crew can best regulate blog-like topics which feature multiple-contributors-of-multiple-photos.
*I'm Boffin, not Crew.
-
Thanks for the explanation Andrea
-
Could I draw attention to the way some possible choices affect film users? In order to reduce costs I try to process several rolls at once, typically once a month or so. That means I have long periods when I do not have new photographs and short periods when I do. So a rule allowing small numbers of photographs to be posted often - one a week, eg - works less well for me than a rule allowing the same cumulative number of photographs over a longer period of time - four a month, eg. I would prefer that also because, quite apart from the film vs digital workflow, I think linked micro-collections are more meaningful - and more challenging - than single images.
-
Les, why not consider posting these collections to another board on NG? The general posting rules *outside* the 'Daily blog' board are quite relaxed as you can post up to 10 images in a single post given their total size is less than the current limit (10 MB).
-
I understand everybody's reason for what they want and why - and likewise I have my own reasons too -
I simply dont have time to go thru a thread which is updated all the time with everyone's images - x amount of members posting daily in one thread - so I am frustrated as I know I am missing some really good images. For me personally a thread with less images - perhaps one's one best one biweekly - will be great. Then there is no reason why the rest cant be posted in other threads - One can even start your own eg : "elsa's thread of daily pics" which measn those who care to follow just me - can find my images quickly. but thats just ME. I am not participating in that thread at present - but would posisbly do so if it is biweekly. Not as it is now. Just my opinion and not meant to offend anyone.
On a final note - I am happy with whatever is decided. It's not a big deal to me. World War II was a bigger deal. People died.
-
I will adapt to the rules, like creating a two person throw-ball-picture-blog, trying to answer to my thread partners posts like 1,3,5,... I post and 2,4,6,... John posts.
For my California Travel log I asked the people I met on my journey to contribute to the thread
-
Multiple-person blogging in one thread is what needs to be fixed. Thus planning a new multiple-person blog is missing the point entirely. Photography forums aren't really the place for blogs. Photography forums are more like gallery space where you select your best work to hang on the walls for discussion and critique.
-
Thank you for the clarification Andrea.
As you point out a good communication is always preferred to avoid any miscommunication and possibly direct communication with the main contributors of the daily updates would have clarified a lot of things.
On the subject, I do agree that the 'Daily-Updates' is not the best form for Nikongear. As already mentioned by Bjørn in his first post a daily updates has many disadvantages and a blog form is not really the appropriate form on a forum about Photography. Potential interesting subjects for the forum as a whole are hidden in a large bunch of 'Daily Routine'.
If it is the aim to have a 'calendar-like' overview a weekly routine could be the best.
-
Multiple-person blogging in one thread is what needs to be fixed. Thus planning a new multiple-person blog is missing the point entirely. Photography forums aren't really the place for blogs. Photography forums are more like gallery space where you select your best work to hang on the walls for discussion and critique.
understood now
-
We are scratching the surface, this idea has been in the pipeline as long as i know, already mentioned in the previous incarnation of the site,
a greater wish for technical chat, than for images at least by those that ended up as admins here.
Most disturbing the poor way it was communicated here, in fact balling out those, that showed production, so arguments mentioned were after the facts.
-
Fons: very speculative line of argumentation and certainly not supported by existing facts.
Do keep to the topic under discussion, please.
-
Actually, I like the daily threat as it is. Looking at the clicks, it seems to me many others appreciate it as it is as well. Maybe there is quite a number of likers, who stay calm? E.g. I find it stunning, the daily quality of pictures John shows us from Tilburg and I also like the often experimental and a little bit cryptic photos from Fons. Be fare. What is the difference of this thread compared to one from the NG meetings?
Off course, by calling the thread “ … daily pictures …”, sometimes it seems there is a need to publish just something, but this might be cured simply by changing the title to something like “ … pictures of the day …”, so no need to post every day???
-
What to do with the current format is up for discussion. Opinions can be freely expressed as long as they are relevant to the topic and refrain from ad hominem attacks.
I fail to see why good pictures should not be possible to post on, say, a weekly basis.
-
"There's no-one attacked that's not attacked" .
-
"There's no-one attacked that's not attacked" .
Fons, you are not being helpful here. What imaginary relationship has this post to the topic under discussion?
Cast your vote and respect the outcome.
-
We are scratching the surface, this idea has been in the pipeline as long as i know, already mentioned in the previous incarnation of the site,
a greater wish for technical chat, than for images at least by those that ended up as admins here.
Most disturbing the poor way it was communicated here, in fact balling out those, that showed production, so arguments mentioned were after the facts.
What are you on about and who are you addressing?
-
"There's no-one attacked that's not attacked" .
Again, I don't understand? Please elaborate, thank you in advance.
-
I removed part of a sentence in my post, which might be misunderstood.
English is not my mother tongue. Critic is important for improvement ;)
Critic by itself is not positive or negative, not good or bad.
-
Actually I fail to see the problem with the current format. Maybe I don't get it, maybe it needs to be better explained.
There is a group dynamic that drives a bunch of motivated people to shoot more often, possibly to experiment, and to share their effort.
Not everyone is able to produce a top notch shot every day, and I certainly wouldn't if I tried. But to me the interest of this kind of experiment lies in the process itself, not in the daily outcome altough it is certainly necessary to post in order to keep going.
Is the problem related to quality or to server space?
If it is the former, it is fine to simply not follow the daily iterations and let the people motivated by the exercise move on. In that case why not let the flow come as it is, and ask people, either once a week or even less, to look back at the latest period and select one picture (possibly in a separate thread) and explain why? Wouldn't that exercise be interesting in itself? It may open the door to discussions among the group, and would certainly encourage non-participants (like me) to pay more attention.
If it is the latter, it needs to be clearly stated.
I don't believe that imposing a format will be fruitful if the participants are satisfied with the current frame.
-
Thanks Werner,
Sometimes change is necessary - Sometimes it's not.
Apparently several people got very offended about our call for change.
That is very unfortunate and I apologize for that, that was absolutely not the intention!
I can only shake my head over the rough language we receive from those who have felt offended though,,,
I am on the other hand not going to stand down on what I write on this site.
We all do our best to run this site to the best of our ability - Unpaid for the love of photography.
I will always be honest in my posting and if I don't like an image I skip it and just save my comments for what ever picture that comes along that I can connect to.
There is no right or wrong in photography and on this site everything goes, almost - In the sense that the site should not only be filled up with images just for the sake of having posted a huge amount of images and posts -
We are asking you/us all to take the pace one step down and get into a pace where we all can enjoy this wonderful site NikonGear that we all share together!
Please
-
Actually I fail to see the problem with the current format. Maybe I don't get it, maybe it needs to be better explained.
There is a group dynamic that drives a bunch of motivated people to shoot more often, possibly to experiment, and to share their effort.
Not everyone is able to produce a top notch shot every day, and I certainly wouldn't if I tried. But to me the interest of this kind of experiment lies in the process itself, not in the daily outcome altough it is certainly necessary to post in order to keep going.
Is the problem related to quality or to server space?
If it is the former, it is fine to simply not follow the daily iterations and let the people motivated by the exercise move on. In that case why not let the flow come as it is, and ask people, either once a week or even less, to look back at the latest period and select one picture (possibly in a separate thread) and explain why? Wouldn't that exercise be interesting in itself? It may open the door to discussions among the group, and would certainly encourage non-participants (like me) to pay more attention.
If it is the latter, it needs to be clearly stated.
I don't believe that imposing a format will be fruitful if the participants are satisfied with the current frame.
No, the server is not an issue.
-
are you saying i CANNOT start a thread with multiple images?.... something i do often.
-
No that is not the issue here
-
Multiple-person blogging in one thread is what needs to be fixed. Thus planning a new multiple-person blog is missing the point entirely. Photography forums aren't really the place for blogs. Photography forums are more like gallery space where you select your best work to hang on the walls for discussion and critique.
In essence this is what we trying to convey,,,
-
In essence this is what we trying to convey,,,
i am sorry i don't get it... i don't really know what defines a blog relative to a thread.
-
For me it is a classic example how man loves to create problems.
At first there was the natural flow of creativity, named a daily blog.
All of a sudden someone's calling you cant do this, that, whatever,...
a problem was created,
Then of course there is the need to "solve this problem", let us do this, that, whatever...
a new problem is created,
Always go back to the source to check what in fact is happening.
It sounds like Kindergarten, and that is what it is. ;)
-
Fons, you are not being helpful here. What is the reason of posting this? You are entitled to hold your opinions, nobody objects to that, but at the same time it is wise to keep a wider perspective on things. The NG Admins have obligations beyond that of indulging the whims of an individual without being accused of "creating problems that didn't exist". Don't make yourself into a problem of its own, please.
The format of this subforum will change, whether you like it or not.
-
I have to defend Fons here, as I have not seen clear evidence of a problem.
As Erik said, there are no server issues at stake.
Bjørn said (I believe) bandwidth is a potential problem.
What is correct? If admins disagree on this, I'm rather unsure what to think.
I have heard that quality is a problem, but I would like to see an example since I haven't followed all of those threads and those that I did follow had decent pictures in them. Where is the thread with low quality pictures?
-
My statement was within a long talk about what is the main issue here.
For now the server is not the issue.
Over time this could develop into an issue if people just post image after image.
You are connecting statements regarding now and the future.
I think Fons is way out of line with his semi personal hint, accusations and conspiracy statements.
Pleas go back and re read all of the posts in this thread, you will se we are quite clear and precise in what are the issues that worry us.
Thanks for your concern.
-
Although server resources are ample, they are finite. Thus sooner or later we will face issues with capacity if the current format continues. The admins are just looking into the near future and act proactively. We understand some members respond unfavourably to the proposed change(s), but again, this is a question of finding a balance between interests of the individual and the entire community.
Aside from that aspect, we feel members should be more conscious about the quality of their posted work not merely the quantities. Allowing only a single image per period (week etc.) will put the evaluation of quality right where it belongs, namely, to each author. The admins have not a wish of deciding what image should remain or be deleted. Do note a member would be free to replace their contribution within that specific period.
I suggest the thread now has reached its natural end and the NG Team will consider the alternatives of interval frequency shortly.
The current format *will* as promised run until the end of 2016. However, participants are urged to post only a single image per day from here on.
-
The current thread will be now closed for more input. Thanks to every one adding their insights and thoughts on the topic.
The template for the November thread is posted so you can familiarise yourself with the slight change in format given below.
This is the thread for November. It opens for posting 1st November as the October thread is closed.
NB: Change of format: Each member can contribute a maximum of 1 image per day.
Additional images from a member that day will be deleted without further notice. You can substitute your daily image for another contribution, though, provided the earlier one is removed.
A final note on posting format:
We suggest the two last months of 2016 be considered a pilot study. If the single image a day works, we might reconsider the plans for 2017. However, under no circumstances will there be an opportunity of adding more than 1 image per period, whether period duration in 2017 is day, week, or month. That part of the format change stands.