NikonGear

Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: richardHaw on March 08, 2016, 04:14:47

Title: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 08, 2016, 04:14:47
http://richardhaw.com/2016/03/07/repair-auto-nikkor-q-200mm-f4/

crazy, I got this lens for $3.50  :o :o :o

i was not expecting this lens to perform well since it is old and with all that fungus in the glass i was assuming that the glass was etched beyond repair. i was proven wrong!  ::)
this lens performed great on the D750's sensor. it is sharp, saturated and contrasty!
this was such a surprise because i got this lens for the purpose of salvaging this lens parts but I ended up restoring it and using it for myself...
the first version was not good according to some people but this (2nd) version sure is amazing!
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 08, 2016, 04:22:31
some people also claim that this lens performs exceptionally well with the T micro filter from Nikon  :o :o :o

a friend also told me that this is also a great lens when used as a relay lens for macro photography...
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on March 08, 2016, 05:05:35
Good job, Rick!

My Nikkor-Q C amazes me either on FX, DX or even m4/3.  It does show some LoCA in the OOF areas which can be mitigated in CC2015 fairly easily.

I have Kenko No.2, 3 and 5 achromatic closeup lenses.  I will try them.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 08, 2016, 05:13:30
Good job, Rick!

My Nikkor-Q C amazes me either on FX, DX or even m4/3.  It does show some LoCA in the OOF areas which can be mitigated in CC2015 fairly easily.

I have Kenko No.2, 3 and 5 achromatic closeup lenses.  I will try them.

Thanks! i wonder how this thing performs with TC  :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: charlie on March 08, 2016, 05:35:50
And I thought I got mine for a steal for $40 in like new condition.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 08, 2016, 06:44:04
And I thought I got mine for a steal for $40 in like new condition.

it usually costs around that. mine was heavily infested with fungi, even the metal parts had them  :o :o :o so they sold it for $3.50
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on March 08, 2016, 08:59:30
Good job, Rick!

My Nikkor-Q C amazes me either on FX, DX or even m4/3.  It does show some LoCA in the OOF areas which can be mitigated in CC2015 fairly easily.

I have Kenko No.2, 3 and 5 achromatic closeup lenses.  I will try them.
That C-version is the first multi-coated one, not? 
These first multi-coated versions perform very good.  I noticed that on the 135/2.8 Q C as well.  They also give probably a half stop more light than the 2.8.  Close up lens works perfect there too.

The same applies for the 85K /1.8  the first multicoated version. It's very close to the later introduced 85/1.4 (apart from the design, obviously).
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on March 08, 2016, 15:18:37
That C-version is the first multi-coated one, not? 
These first multi-coated versions perform very good.  I noticed that on the 135/2.8 Q C as well.  They also give probably a half stop more light than the 2.8.  Close up lens works perfect there too.

The same applies for the 85K /1.8  the first multicoated version. It's very close to the later introduced 85/1.4 (apart from the design, obviously).

John, I believe the Q C 200mm/f4.0 was one of the first Nikkors to be multi-coated (in 1973?).

I also wanted 85/1.8, but its 6-blade straight aperture made me back off...
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 08, 2016, 15:26:09
this lens should look great with the Df.  :o :o :o

anybody knows how ugly the original version is compared to this or the C?
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on March 08, 2016, 15:29:53
Rick, I don't necessarily think that the original version was all that ugly.  But the narrow grip of its focus ring appears to be awkward to operate.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 08, 2016, 15:32:27
More like it produced a strange impression by the combination of metal and paint plus the stair-case like stages in its outline. I get the same feeling when I look at the first zoom Nikkors of the '60s too. The mechanical side of the affair probably came last in the development of the lens.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on March 08, 2016, 21:10:20
John, I believe the Q C 200mm/f4.0 was one of the first Nikkors to be multi-coated (in 1973?).

I also wanted 85/1.8, but its 6-blade straight aperture made me back off...
1973 for 85, 105, 135 and 200, but 1972 for the 50mm's  according to Roland Vink's database. It depends which multi-coating is meant, I am not sure?

What are your objections against a 6-blade straight aperture?  The bokeh of the 85/1.8 K  can be as smooth as any 1.4 lens ;)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Roland Vink on March 08, 2016, 23:59:33
The transition from older single-coated to multi-coated lenses in the early 1970s is quite clear. Back then there weren't different types of multi-coating.

Originally it was known as multi-layer coating, later Intergrated Coating (IC) and then Nikon Integrated Coating (NIC). All are essentially the same thing, although there a likely to be improvements along the way. The first "new" coating was Super Integrated Coating (SIC) which started appearing around 2000? This is supposed to be more effective over a wider range of wavelengths, but is not a radical change. The last real improvement is Nano-Crystal-Coat which works in a different way and is much more effective, but is also expensive and delicate so is only used on selected internal surfaces, the rest are still SIC.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on March 09, 2016, 01:49:26
The last real improvement is Nano-Crystal-Coat which works in a different way and is much more effective, but is also expensive and delicate so is only used on selected internal surfaces, the rest are still SIC.

If I'm not mistaken, there have been no Nikkor lenses that uses Nano Crystal Coat on more than one lens surfaces.  So its use is very limited.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: null on March 09, 2016, 02:05:03
The Nikon/Nikkormat Handbook, Joseph Cooper, states that the selected groups of the Nikkor-S 55/1.2 were the first to be multicoated, starting in 1969. The selection of surfaces being multi-coated were "guided" by the computer. I believe the 35/1.4 and 28/2 were multi-coated early on. I had one of those 55/1.2 lenses, but sold it and kept the Nikkor-SC.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Roland Vink on March 09, 2016, 03:10:16
Which page of the Handbook? I'd like to read that again as I have my doubts about this. To the best of my knowledge the multi-coating shows as green reflections from the rear. The earliest 55/1.2 lenses that I have seen like this are from around no.23xxxx, from the series marked "Nikon" starting at no. 220001, made during 1971-1972. This is well after the Nikkor-N 35/1.4 and 28/2 from 1970, which were the first Nikkors to be multi-coated on all glass-air surfaces.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: null on March 09, 2016, 11:30:35
I will have to look it up later, I read it just before  posting the information. It is in the 1975 Copyright edition of the manual, in the section talking about properties of lenses. The earlier edition of the manual does not contain this information. Nikon, like many others in the industry has made small, unannounced changes in product lines. I worked in a camera shop going through college, which is where I picked up the info on the 35/1.4 and 28/2. Funny what you remember after all those decades. Also where one of the salesman told me to get the later edition of the Handbook as it contained much more information regarding performance and background of the lenses. It had just come out.

I'll post a picture of my 20cm F4 Nikkor-Q next to the 200 F4 Nikkor-QC when I look up the page number. I keep a chrome ringed filter on the older lens, I like the shiny chrome collar on it. The optical formula was revised early on.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Chris Dees on March 09, 2016, 15:41:14
From left to right:
Nippon Kogaku Nikkor-Q Auto 1:4 F=20.0cm (ca. 1962)
Nippon Kogaku Nikkor-Q Auto 1:4 F=200mm (ca. 1970)
Nikkor-Q·C Auto 1:4 f=200mm factory AI-d (ca. 1974)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: null on March 09, 2016, 15:50:10
Note the closer-focus of the newer lens, which would require a wider focus ring.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: null on March 09, 2016, 18:57:36
My Nikkor-Q 20cm F4 and and Nikkor-QC 200F4, along with Joseph D Cooper's Nikon/Nikkormat Handbook in question.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1634/25529794662_9e4fec4159_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ETYSvu)200f4S (https://flic.kr/p/ETYSvu) by fiftyonepointsix (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90768661@N02/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Roland Vink on March 09, 2016, 20:07:24
Nippon Kogaku Nikkor-Q Auto 1:4 F=20.0cm (ca. 1962)
Your 20cm is marked in feet and m, so it would be late 1962 at the earliest and depending on the serial number, as late as 1966.

Nippon Kogaku Nikkor-Q Auto 1:4 F=200mm (ca. 1970)
A slightly remodeled version was released early 1967. The focal length is marked in mm (200mm) and the upper chrome barrel is wider, tapering in at the top, compared to the narrow straight-through design of the first version. Stand this lens next to the 20cm, both focused at infinity and you'll notice the front element sits just a little higher inside the filter ring, which shows it has updated optics. This model was made until mid 1969, so the 1970 date is too late.

Nikkor-Q·C Auto 1:4 f=200mm factory AI-d (ca. 1974)
In mid 1969 the older chrome barrel version was replaced by an all-black version with closer focusing (to 2m compared to 3m). The optics were possibly updated again (not sure about this). There were a couple of minor changes to the design of the aperture ring and hood along the way but it stayed basically the same until production ended. Multi-coating was added around 1973.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: null on March 09, 2016, 20:18:03
I stopped collecting Nikon F-Mount by SN some 25 years ago. You can go crazy with it, so many lenses and bodies. I got the Rangefinder itch, and the last set that I put together are the Collapsible 5cm F2, 5cm F1.5, 3.5cm F3.5, 8.5cm F2, 13.5cm F4, and Variframe finder, all Leica mount with 1949 Batch numbers on them. The name ring of the collapsible 5cm F2 has a 1948 batch, but the focus mount shows a 1949 batch- one of the few Nikon lenses with separate SN's on the lens and mount. Zeiss did this with the wartime Sonnars, but you had to disassemble the mount to find them.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Roland Vink on March 09, 2016, 20:23:32
My Nikkor-Q 20cm F4 and and Nikkor-QC 200F4, along with Joseph D Cooper's Nikon/Nikkormat Handbook in question.
Thanks Brian, I don't think I have this copy. This comment is interesting: "as a matter of continuing product improvement, the factory extended multiple coating to other lenses. This is done selectively, for not all lenses and not all components of a lens can benefit from multiple coating"
It seems Nikon first considered multi-layer coating like Nano Crystal Coat today, to be applied only to lens surfaces where it would be most beneficial. Yet the 55/1.2 is the only lens I know of which was partially multi-coated. Starting with the 35/1.4 and 28/2 the new coating was applied to all air-glass surfaces, and within a few years all other existing lenses were upgraded.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Erik Lund on March 09, 2016, 20:38:41
Just a heads up that I am (and on behalf of the NikonGear team) really happy to have you guys posting these historical highlight here on NikonGear! A huge asset! Thanks.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Chris Dees on March 09, 2016, 20:39:28
.........
Nippon Kogaku Nikkor-Q Auto 1:4 F=200mm (ca. 1970)
A slightly remodeled version was released early 1967. The focal length is marked in mm (200mm) and the upper chrome barrel is wider, tapering in at the top, compared to the narrow straight-through design of the first version. Stand this lens next to the 20cm, both focused at infinity and you'll notice the front element sits just a little higher inside the filter ring, which shows it has updated optics. This model was made until mid 1969, so the 1970 date is too late.
.........

Serial number: 316441
So yes, 1969 :)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: null on March 09, 2016, 20:41:49
This lens is one of the earliest coated lenses made- from a 1936 Batch, does not have the "T" (transparent) of the later coated Sonnars. My 1938 Coated Sonnar has the "T" marked on it. Bought off Ebay, did not know it was coated until completely disassembled- that is how hazed over the surfaces were.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/726/21404880223_04d86b2030_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/yBtBa2)coated_sonnar_m9 (https://flic.kr/p/yBtBa2) by fiftyonepointsix (https://www.flickr.com/photos/90768661@N02/), on Flickr

All paint intact on all retaining rings, and I had to use "Big Bertha" the spanner to get apart. An RFF member sent me a PM that another lens from this same batch with a slightly earlier SN was also recorded as being coated. The vacuum deposition equipment had been installed at the factory at about this time, and I suspect they were yanking some optics off the line and trying it out. The coatings are in very good condition.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 09, 2016, 20:50:24
Hm. It's getting difficult to follow the flow in this thread when widely different lenses are discussed under the same heading ....
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 09, 2016, 20:58:15
I purchased a 200/4 Q in the late '60s, but no further recollection of it except for the chrome barrel. Later I sold it off and got the new 200/4 6-element design instead. I have the AI and AIS versions.

Recently, in conjunction with the arrival of the Df, I aimed at recreating the various lens kits I started with in the '60s and '70s, at that time with Nikon F and F2. So I got a near mint copy of a Nikkor -Q from around '69/'70 (sn 446400). It was AI-modified with a factory kit and looked almost unused, a steal for USD 80,- plus shipping.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: null on March 09, 2016, 21:18:28
I have the Nikkor 200mm F4 Ai 5-element in 5 group lens, and the later Micro-Nikkor 200/4D ED-IF AF (I just looked at the Box) which is sharper, but cost 20x as much. These in addition to the two shown. I also have the 25cm F4 Nikkor-Q Manual aperture, Nikon's first long-lens, 600 made? It came with an N-> F adapter. $99 at the same antique store with the pair of Nikon M's.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 09, 2016, 21:49:55
The 25 cm f/4 is actually a very nice lens, apart from its pitiful small tripod mounting platform. I have CPU-modified my sample (using the NF tube)  so can use it on all my Nikons.

Otherwise I seem to have all the same 200 mm lenses as you do. Plus of course the AIS 200/4 Micro-Nikkor in addition to the AFD Micro, and 200 mm f/5.6 Medical-Nikkor. And the AIS 200/2 and the AFS 200/2 VR.

Apparently I like this focal length?
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Roland Vink on March 09, 2016, 22:02:46
Don't you also have the F3-AF 200/3.5 IF-ED? :)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 09, 2016, 22:06:59
Oops. Yes, of course. Forgot that one. Not that easy to remember all of them....

I take opportunity to remind that the CPU of the original 200/3.5 AF is NOT compatible with modern Nikons. AF will not work nor any other functionality requiring a CPU, and you may short-circuit the camera's  battery to complete the misery.

Either snip off the flatcable from the contact block, or better, put a compatible CPU in it, and you have a very capable medium long lens at your disposal.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: null on March 09, 2016, 22:42:43
 The Nikkor-Q (and QC) 200/4 F-Mount is a 4 in 4, "not a Sonnar". The 25cm F4 is like a giant 13.5cm F4- a true Sonnar formula like the 1930s Carl Zeiss Jena lens. Does that make the 135/3.5 the longest Sonnar formula lens in F-Mount?

I know we've veered off. I need to find 1965 Neblette "Photographic lenses" to see what else is like the 4/4 Nikkor 200/4.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: null on March 09, 2016, 23:13:48
Oops. Yes, of course. Forgot that one. Not that easy to remember all of them....

I take opportunity to remind that the CPU of the original 200/3.5 AF is NOT compatible with modern Nikons. AF will not work nor any other functionality requiring a CPU, and you may short-circuit the camera's  battery to complete the misery.

Either snip off the flatcable from the contact block, or better, put a compatible CPU in it, and you have a very capable medium long lens at your disposal.

Do you have the F3AF to go with it? I picked up one very cheap years (and years) ago- but only got the TC-16AF for it. Someday will fall into a 200/3.5 AF.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 09, 2016, 23:18:24
No. I've seen the F3AF, but never been tempted. Actually I disliked all versions of the F3 in their time.

I do have both F3AF-dedicated lenses though, the 80/2.8 and 200/3.5 Ed-IF. They both are fine performers. I replaced their CPUs so they could communicate with all modern Nikons.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Chip Chipowski on March 09, 2016, 23:29:35
Bjorn and Brian, I could listen to you two talk camera collections for hours :)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 09, 2016, 23:32:39
I obviously need to refresh my memory cells. Can no longer remember what lenses I have in my possession ...
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on March 10, 2016, 00:06:04
Yet the 55/1.2 is the only lens I know of which was partially multi-coated. Starting with the 35/1.4 and 28/2 the new coating was applied to all air-glass surfaces, and within a few years all other existing lenses were upgraded.

The Series E 28/2.8 and 35/2.5 also were multi-coated only partially, though they are not really "Nikkors" per se.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on March 10, 2016, 00:12:17
No. I've seen the F3AF, but never been tempted. Actually I disliked all versions of the F3 in their time.

I do have both F3AF-dedicated lenses though, the 80/2.8 and 200/3.5 Ed-IF. They both are fine performers. I replaced their CPUs so they could communicate with all modern Nikons.

Bjørn, are the contact blocks of F3AF lenses completely the same as that of the modern AF Nikkors in terms of the dimention and the position of the screws?
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 10, 2016, 00:14:26
Unfortunately, not entirely equally positioned regarding the retaining screws I'm afraid. One can usually come around this by using the old block if the pins still are pliable and sufficiently spring-loaded. Otherwise, all old stuff must go and a new block installed by drilling new holes. I used both approaches on these lenses myself. New CPUs are mandatory though.

The problem with these lenses and their original CPU block is that Nikon redefined what pin should be the grounding one. Meaning that these old lenses will zap the camera battery by making a short circuit.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on March 10, 2016, 00:18:30
I never noticed anything with my F3AF lenses on the D700,  Df and the D800E. They just worked like any AiS lens.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 10, 2016, 00:26:48
Maybe Nikon incorporated logic in their newer models to prevent the power drain? I fried the battery of my D2H when I put the 80/2.8 AF on it.

As you won't have AF functionality anyway, just replace the CPU and enjoy all features of a "P"-enabled lens. The 80/2.8 and 200/3.5 are AIS by design as well.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on March 10, 2016, 00:41:51
Thanks, Bjørn, for the detail.  Apparently Nikon redesigned its AF system virtually from scratch when they moved to the AF as standard system.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 10, 2016, 03:35:14
the F3AF always looked funny to me. like it fell from a chair and bumped it's head  :o :o :o

In case anybody missed, go to my Nikon Museum post ( http://richardhaw.com/2015/12/20/at-the-nikon-museum/ ) and go all the way down to 1971, you can see Nikon's first attempt at AF. it is so bizarre but i got to give it to Nikon for at least trying. it is said to be the 1st commercially available AF module for a camera. growing up, I always remembered that MAXXUM from minolta was the word in AF. those were fine cameras but i was too poor to own one.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: null on March 10, 2016, 11:37:41
I put the DX-1 for the F3AF in the same category as using a DS-1 on the F2Sb and F2S. I have them, powered them up to watch them work- then put a DE-3 on the F3AF. All of it works.  I ended up with two DS-1's, found a battery for a cordless phone that could be used for it. Paid $100 for the DS-1 and charger, these used to cost as much as a Motor Drive. Nikon made the CH-11 for the body with DS-1 attached, and the CF-24 for the F3AF. Both much more rare than the hardware.

The DS-1, I've used with the 200/4. Back on track...
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on March 10, 2016, 12:01:58
As you won't have AF functionality anyway, just replace the CPU and enjoy all features of a "P"-enabled lens. The 80/2.8 and 200/3.5 are AIS by design as well.
Still on my to-do-list. ;)     Is that easily done, the CPU replacement?
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 10, 2016, 12:03:48
Bring the lens with you on any NG Event and we'll fix this right away.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: David H. Hartman on March 12, 2016, 21:23:45
The thread lock on the bayonet screws may be Loctite High Temperature thread lock. I've seen a camera repairman friend use a butane soldering pen to loosen bayonet screws. Local heat is much faster than acetone which is the way I've always done it. This thread lock is used for many applications where high temperature and high strength is needed. I believe heat is an approved method per the instructions. The color was always white but after many years that may have changed.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on March 12, 2016, 21:26:42
A small solder iron with a narrow bit is very helpful in such cases. There was a decade mid '70s and onwards where Nikon really locked down the bayonet screws. They can be unpleasantly troublesome to loosen up.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on March 13, 2016, 01:01:17
Ah, good to know. I noticed that on the 135/2.8 Q Auto from 1973. All five screws are completely stuck. What is the solution to get that fixed? A bit OT here....
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 13, 2016, 01:54:13
yes, i use a mini butane torch,too  :o :o :o

so far, acetone/MEK has been OK for me. the torch is only for last resort. believe it or not, Nikon used epoxy for a time (i was told by a couple of techs here in japan). so far, a firm wrist and a glove works so far. most important is using the right screwdriver (JIS) with a LONG shaft. i have carpal tunnel syndrome and gout, sometimes it can be painful just removing these screws.  ::)

Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 13, 2016, 02:01:05
Ah, good to know. I noticed that on the 135/2.8 Q Auto from 1973. All five screws are completely stuck. What is the solution to get that fixed? A bit OT here....

that is one of my favourite lenses to service.  :o :o :o very simple and clear ::)
first, try dropping acetone/MEK into the hole. let it stay there from 15minutes to a few hours until it softens. if it fails, use a butane torch. the butane torch will not work on some screws as they are locked using epoxy. always use a long shafted driver for these screws.

http://richardhaw.com/2015/12/29/best-practices-part-1/

http://richardhaw.com/2015/12/23/camera-and-lens-repair-essentials/

Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on March 13, 2016, 08:46:14
Ah, great. Thanks for the tip and the links, Richard !!  Will try that. The lens is in great shape, glass and blades. Only the aperture won't close further than f/8 - f/11. I assume the aperture lever has been shifted somewhat to the right, blocking the lever to close to f/22. But I am not sure.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 21, 2016, 12:23:46
Ah, great. Thanks for the tip and the links, Richard !!  Will try that. The lens is in great shape, glass and blades. Only the aperture won't close further than f/8 - f/11. I assume the aperture lever has been shifted somewhat to the right, blocking the lever to close to f/22. But I am not sure.
Hello, John. one cause is that the pin on the iris assembly is not properly installed. it is impossible to jump out from the slot unless somebody opened the lens. one other reason is that the aperture ring and the inner aperture ring (for the lack of a good term) might be stuck. if you trust me enough, you can send it to me if you are not comfortable with opening it yourself. :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on March 21, 2016, 12:34:55
Richard, Thanks.  I think I solved the problem. It's the inner aperture ring, which was screwed into an position the lever and aperture wouldn't close further down. I removed the ring and all seems to work fine. Probably need to glue that ring to the proper position as the screws and the screwholes in that position won't close down the aperture.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 21, 2016, 17:22:05
Richard, Thanks.  I think I solved the problem. It's the inner aperture ring, which was screwed into an position the lever and aperture wouldn't close further down. I removed the ring and all seems to work fine. Probably need to glue that ring to the proper position as the screws and the screwholes in that position won't close down the aperture.
there must be another way without having to glue it. maybe the tolerances were wrong?  :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 21, 2016, 17:23:16
OK, i finally got a sunny holiday so i took the 200mm out. this lens is sharp! it is not as sharp as the succeeding versions of the 200mm f/4's but the sharpness is "organic" specially when compared to current nikkors. the weakness of this lens i can say is definitely the CA where it was not very well corrected. this might be the reason why the pictures look "organic" :o :o :o

I chose a sunny day because i want to shoot at higher shutter speeds with the D7200. the D7200's sensor is pretty demanding and will easily out resolve a lot of older lenses in my collection! an example would be the older 2.8cm 1:3.5 and other lenses with old coating types.

old man's head is 1:1 crop by the way.

the fish was dehazed in LR.

the sakura branch is pretty much as is but exposure was turned down.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on March 21, 2016, 18:18:10
Rick, the carp image is superb!  It reminds me of some popular Chinese/Japanese paintings, especially with your signature in Chinese letters.

My Nikkor-Q C also inevitably shows some LoCA in addition to CA.  But both can be largely removed by the lens correction controls in ACR, which makes the image appear cleaner and slightly sharper without being harsh.  The corrected image still look organic and carry some "roundness".  At f5.6-8.0, the lens seems to be the sharpest.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on March 21, 2016, 20:35:33
there must be another way without having to glue it. maybe the tolerances were wrong?  :o :o :o
Well, as the five screws are completely locked that's the only solution to have the lens fully working on the Df.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 22, 2016, 03:35:42
Well, as the five screws are completely locked that's the only solution to have the lens fully working on the Df.

Hello, John. have you tried dropping MEK or acetone to them and leaving it overnight? you may need 1-2 drops of that thing in each screw hole and let that flood up a little bit. its messy but if i have a lens that was epoxied (a technician here along with daitocamera confirmed that Nikon epoxied their lenses around the the new nikkor era), the screws would come of without any trouble at all the next morning. it even felt squishy :o :o :o no pop at all. 
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 22, 2016, 03:50:43
Rick, the carp image is superb!  It reminds me of some popular Chinese/Japanese paintings, especially with your signature in Chinese letters.

My Nikkor-Q C also inevitably shows some LoCA in addition to CA.  But both can be largely removed by the lens correction controls in ACR, which makes the image appear cleaner and slightly sharper without being harsh.  The corrected image still look organic and carry some "roundness".  At f5.6-8.0, the lens seems to be the sharpest.

haha reminds me of 魚た. japan actually took that to the next level. in ancient china it was used as documentation specially for executions (faces and hand of prisoners) but here in japan it was turned into an art form :o :o :o

i am really liking this lens. everytime i shoot with the 70-200VR2 i am amazed by how clear and sharp it is but i also missed the organic looking pictures that old lenses give. CA is very high on sakura, might be because of the D7200's sensor. too demanding
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on March 22, 2016, 12:02:02
Rick I didn't know about 拓本 (ink impression) for the record of death-row prisoners.    :o :o :o

D7200 sensor should be very demanding, but in fact Niikor-Q C 200/4.0 worked surprisingly well on the even denser 20MP m4/3 sensor of Panasonic GX8. Of course, the sensor only uses the central "sweet spot".  The image was trimmed only slightly.  I think I removed CA and LoCA in ACR.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on March 22, 2016, 12:04:19
The same combo.  The image is the entire m4/3 frame.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 22, 2016, 12:18:14
Wow the sakura looks good :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on March 22, 2016, 12:21:22
Wow the sakura looks good :o :o :o

Actually, that is 白梅 (white Japanese apricot).   8)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 22, 2016, 13:40:30
very nice blur :o :o :o

i find the focus throw to be too long on this lens
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on March 22, 2016, 14:09:56
very nice blur :o :o :o

i find the focus throw to be too long on this lens

Yes, I like the bokeh.

The focus throw may be too long for snap-shooting like your posted images, but it is very comfortable for the still images including landscapes or for the precise focusing using the live view.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on March 22, 2016, 14:46:57
Yes, I like the bokeh.

The focus throw may be too long for snap-shooting like your posted images, but it is very comfortable for the still images including landscapes or for the precise focusing using the live view.
yes i agree. very hard for 生足 :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Matthew Currie on April 18, 2016, 23:49:33
I wasn't planning on getting one of these, but just stopped by my local repair/used camera gear dealer and he had a sale on the bargain shelf lenses, $5 each or two for $8.  They had a very old 20 CM F4Q, and a pretty decent looking 50/1.4S with a hood on it  -  one I already have but it's getting very shabby after 45 years of use, so I got them.   Last thing I need, but could not resist any Nikkor glass for four bucks.  Now I'll have to see how they work.

Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on April 19, 2016, 02:46:49
thats a great deal!!! :o :o :o

if you plan to overhaul it, you can check out the guide that i made:

https://richardhaw.com/2016/03/07/repair-auto-nikkor-q-200mm-f4/

this lens is actually pretty good for it's price and vintage, you will be surprised
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bjørn Rørslett on April 19, 2016, 02:51:02
The old 200/4 Q can be used for UV photography as well.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Matthew Currie on April 19, 2016, 04:13:06
thats a great deal!!! :o :o :o

if you plan to overhaul it, you can check out the guide that i made:

https://richardhaw.com/2016/03/07/repair-auto-nikkor-q-200mm-f4/

this lens is actually pretty good for it's price and vintage, you will be surprised

I might not be all that surprised.  There seems to be something in those old Nikkors that is hard to pin down except that the pictures they make look good.  I'm running out of good reasons to get more lenses, especially in this length, but a bit of informal testing suggests it's pretty nice.   

This is the older model than the one you show, and although it's a bit beat up in appearance the glass is quite good and clean.  It was missing a couple of little screws, one in the focusing collar and one under, but when I got those all tight, it seems to be pretty decent except for somewhat stiff focusing, so I am figuring probably to leave it alone. 

Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on April 19, 2016, 04:48:55
The old 200/4 Q can be used for UV photography as well.

Yes, I remember your test image with "紫外" letters written by your son with the sunscreen cream.  :)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on April 19, 2016, 12:03:32
I might not be all that surprised.  There seems to be something in those old Nikkors that is hard to pin down except that the pictures they make look good.  I'm running out of good reasons to get more lenses, especially in this length, but a bit of informal testing suggests it's pretty nice.   

This is the older model than the one you show, and although it's a bit beat up in appearance the glass is quite good and clean.  It was missing a couple of little screws, one in the focusing collar and one under, but when I got those all tight, it seems to be pretty decent except for somewhat stiff focusing, so I am figuring probably to leave it alone.

those (-) screws can be very hard to find. :o :o :o
i am currently re-stocking on screws ::) specially the ones for the bayonet since friends keep on asking for these...

it should roughly be the same as what i have, maybe a little bit of variation here and there. the tight focusing might be due to old grease and alloy filings. if you are cool with that then leave it alone. if you are someone like me who has the itch to open up seemingly good conditioned lenses then i would clean that ::)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Matthew Currie on April 19, 2016, 14:20:07
I've taken apart a few old cameras and lenses and saved the screws, and fortunately found some that fit

Mine is the original type with no screws in the bayonet.  The focusing ring is in one piece and held on by three screws.  A tiny setscrew was missing from the ring beneath that, causing the whole assembly to be a bit loose.  Replacing that, and the one missing from the focusing right, and tightening everything up, seems to have helped.  Otherwise it seemed pretty similar to yours.

There are some screws in the base plate of a Minolta X700 that are the right size for a Nikon bayonet, if you don't mind that they have a cross head.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on April 19, 2016, 14:31:06
mine wobbles a bit even with the set screw :o :o :o the objective wobbles with the focusing ring so something inside is the culprit. ::)
sorry i was thinking about the 300mm f/4.5 :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: the solitaire on April 26, 2016, 22:41:18
Late for the party but I hope my reply is still acceptable here

I also own a copy of the pre-Ai Nikon 200mm f4 Nikkor-Q. The multicoated Nikkor-Q.C version to be precise.
I really like the appearance of the lens. Other then the 20mm f3,5 Nikkor-UD no other lens comes close in being a sculpture as well as a usable camera lens

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1559/26179225760_bfa50f2001_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FTnnKo)ready 4 more (https://flic.kr/p/FTnnKo) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

I do like this lens a lot more then the later Ai and Ai-S versions. Rendering and sharpness are overall on a much higher level, or I had really bad copies of both the Ai and Ai-S lenses

Here are soem samples from my copy of the 200mm f4 Nikkor-S.C on a D3 at f4

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5779/20805672901_a8ab211765_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/xGwvGi)DSC_9458 (https://flic.kr/p/xGwvGi) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/601/20798584205_99d1815eba_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/xFUbtp)DSC_9465 (https://flic.kr/p/xFUbtp) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

I used the camera as part of a two lens setup for macro photography using a 50mm f1,4 at the front which also worked very well. Don't have any samples because I noticed on the attempt that I should really really clean my image sensor before stacking multiple macro exposures like that.

I also tried it with the Nikon TC-16a and got some satisfactory results there. The 200 f4 Nikkor-Q.C by itself is very sharp across the frame even wide open and gives beautiful rendering and good color and contrast. With the TC16 the edges suffered, mostly due to the optics in the TC.

Another really excellent performer, and just as underrated and affordable is the 135mm f3,5 Nikkor-Q.C.

Here are a few examples of that lens wide open on my D3

close

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5745/22028736744_bec3a8b0a1_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/zyB2XW)DSC_0576 (https://flic.kr/p/zyB2XW) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

far

(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5734/22651621795_945edbf84e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/AvDtZn)DSC_0575-Edit (https://flic.kr/p/AvDtZn) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

bokeh

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1495/25563361332_f2aa606318_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/EWWUHb)DSC_5328-Edit-Edit (https://flic.kr/p/EWWUHb) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

portrait

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1664/26250516701_b3cece2131_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FZEL4x)DSC_6402-3 (https://flic.kr/p/FZEL4x) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on April 27, 2016, 07:30:29
that is a lovely portrait of your dog :o :o :o
very well done!

i am not sure about the Ai and Ai-S. i do feel that the Ai-S is sharper but lacking character in the bokeh department. the color rendition is different as well. i hve an Ai but never got to test it since it was bought as a junker for parts
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Øivind Tøien on April 27, 2016, 07:41:53

Any lens would look good with that dog.  :)

I have both an AIed late pre-AI version and an AIS version and have not noticed a difference except the latter possibly a hair sharper. However it would need more side by side testing for the other characters. The diaphragm on the latter is more joined, although I have encountered several copies with some asymmetry in the diaphragm.  In the former the blades do not completely cover each other at the wider apertures.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on April 27, 2016, 08:46:06

I do like this lens a lot more then the later Ai and Ai-S versions. Rendering and sharpness are overall on a much higher level, or I had really bad copies of both the Ai and Ai-S lenses
Yes, I think the same applies also for the 80-200/4.5 C and the 85/1.8 (C and K) were I prefer Rendering and Sharpness as well. 
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Roland Vink on April 27, 2016, 10:17:23
I have both an AIed late pre-AI version and an AIS version and have not noticed a difference ...
These two have the same optics, maybe some differences in coatings, so this finding is not surprising.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: the solitaire on May 05, 2016, 11:40:47
John, I am not so certain about my opinion on the 80-200 zooms. I owned the 80-200 f4 Ai-S for well over 15 years after which I found out the lens tube was cracked from the moment I bought it which finally explained the stiff aperture ring, and possibly the reason why I got it for free from a camera shop when buying another lens.

I did make an offer on an 80-200 f4 Ai-S on ebay today so I might end up owning that lens again, but this topic is about the 200mm f4 Nikkor-Q, and hopefully my ramblings about th Q.C version are tolerated here as well.

I went to the zoo this tuesday and brought my 200mm f4 Nikkor-Q.C with me. As it happened, the lens never left my camera up to the moment where I mounted a 1,4x TC for some additional reach.

Here are some of the pictures I made. So far all I can say is that I my opinion still is that this 200mm f4 is sharper then pictures I have seen taken with the Ai and Ai-S versions. Sample variation might play a part, and I am quite certain that my copy of th elens is in excellent shape optically.

All of the photos below were made wide open, which is about the only setting I use on this lens.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7124/26212310143_6142eefc72_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FWhWzM)DSC_8224 (https://flic.kr/p/FWhWzM) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7566/26211096254_93018f4614_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FWbHJE)DSC_8021 (https://flic.kr/p/FWbHJE) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7121/26543715050_e51511c43f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GrztHu)DSC_8106 (https://flic.kr/p/GrztHu) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7052/26210549764_b6c9d09525_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FW8Vhq)DSC_8134 (https://flic.kr/p/FW8Vhq) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7790/26543412470_2e766c6a05_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GrxVLA)DSC_8207 (https://flic.kr/p/GrxVLA) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7297/26543222660_7d6f3bde14_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GrwXm1)DSC_8265 (https://flic.kr/p/GrwXm1) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

And now the ones with TC. These suffer from the extra glass. I might have to invest in a Nikon TC14a or buy a 300mm lens for the additional reach needed

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7685/26721852492_4e915eeb3e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GHjtLG)DSC_8277 (https://flic.kr/p/GHjtLG) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7401/26542993180_8e383c3142_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/GrvM8s)DSC_8337 (https://flic.kr/p/GrvM8s) by b j (https://www.flickr.com/photos/132836932@N03/), on Flickr
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on May 05, 2016, 16:47:34
those are lovely pictures, Buddy :o :o :o

i especially loved the giraffe photo
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on May 05, 2016, 16:57:03
Yes, agree. Lovely pictures.
John, I am not so certain about my opinion on the 80-200 zooms. I owned the 80-200 f4 Ai-S for well over 15 years after which I found out the lens tube was cracked from the moment I bought it which finally explained the stiff aperture ring, and possibly the reason why I got it for free from a camera shop when buying another lens.
Actually I am talking about the 80-200/4.5 and specifically the multicoated version serialno 192...   and higher.  I had two samples of the 80-200/4 and didn't like them.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Matthew Currie on August 11, 2016, 03:46:40
Reawakening an old thread for the moment, I was out at the pond chasing bugs and things, and though the old 200 is not a very good lens for this owing to its lack of close focus, and a bit hard to hold steady on a DX camera, I stuck an extension tube on it and used a tripod, and found, not surprisingly, that the results are pretty nice.  The following shot is cropped, and a wee bit of sharpening added to compensate for the downsizing of the JPG, and of course no meter, but I thought it came out rather nicely, especially for a four dollar lens.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on August 11, 2016, 05:40:57
Reawakening an old thread for the moment, I was out at the pond chasing bugs and things, and though the old 200 is not a very good lens for this owing to its lack of close focus, and a bit hard to hold steady on a DX camera, I stuck an extension tube on it and used a tripod, and found, not surprisingly, that the results are pretty nice.  The following shot is cropped, and a wee bit of sharpening added to compensate for the downsizing of the JPG, and of course no meter, but I thought it came out rather nicely, especially for a four dollar lens.

Nice! how much did you crop :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Matthew Currie on August 11, 2016, 06:42:17
Nice! how much did you crop :o :o :o
Pretty arbitrary, but I took it to about 2/3 of the original dimensions.  Ordinarily I'd try a bit more to get it right in the camera,  but the 36 mm. extension tube limits range a lot, and between the long close focus of that lens and the muddy embankment, that was the closest I could get.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on August 11, 2016, 17:30:15
OK, now that you got me interested with this thing again, I may bring this out for a little shoot one of these days :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: the solitaire on August 19, 2016, 14:59:24
You should Richard.

I did the other day and wasn't disapointed

(https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8730/28360041743_c4c1e974c5_b.jpg)

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8650/28871737712_3566658281_b.jpg)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on September 01, 2016, 16:42:33
OK, this lens is supposed to be FG Ang's lens but I overhauled it by accident :o :o :o

this is crazy sharp! I was not expecting the Nikkor-Q 20cm f/4 to be this good wide-open!
focusing this thing on the street is not easy if you are trying to look inconspicuous but it wasn't difficult with the Df.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on September 01, 2016, 16:46:06
it's also very good wide-open at both ends of the focus scale :o :o :o
pity it's 3m minimum distance wasn't very useful
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Hugh_3170 on September 02, 2016, 03:17:57
Richard, have you tried this lens with an extension tube, and if so does the image quality still hold up?

Not all lenses do well with extension tubes, but figured this older design just might.

it's also very good wide-open at both ends of the focus scale :o :o :o
pity it's 3m minimum distance wasn't very useful
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on September 02, 2016, 04:22:33
Richard, have you tried this lens with an extension tube, and if so does the image quality still hold up?

Not all lenses do well withextension tubes, but figured this older design just might.

not yet. i can try tomorrow at the park :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Roland Vink on September 02, 2016, 09:03:45
How come you can get good pictures with a 50 year old lens, while others need the latest AF-S APO Aspherical Nano VR wunder-optik ?? :o :o :o

As for extension tubes, the Nikkor-Q 200mm went from the old chrome barrel version focusing to 3m, to the black barrel focusing to 2m, with virtually the same optics, so the lens surely performs well with a little more extension (I wonder why it didn't go to 2m in the first place?)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on September 02, 2016, 09:51:25
Nikkor-Q 200/4.0 is a formidable, considering its 40+year-old design.

I had tried it with PN-11, and its round rendition and creamy bokeh was very pleasing, so far as I remember.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Matthew Currie on September 02, 2016, 22:10:30
Well, there's one way to find out for sure.  I have tried this with various tubes, and the main problem is holding it steady, and getting sharp focus with the measly D3200 viewfinder.  But I'm kind of housebound today with a bad case of airport flu, so stepped out back to the rose of sharon and stuck the thing on 36 mm. Vivitar tube and a mini tripod, and did a couple of quick and dirties,  and though the critical focus is not - well - critical, and the exposure is, as always,a meterless guess,  I find the results pretty decent.

e.t.a. the camera is a D3200, set at ISO 200, shutter speed 1/250, aperture 5.6 on the first, 8 on the second.  First was a little too bright, needing some highlight recovery.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: the solitaire on September 02, 2016, 22:36:08
I do not have pictures to show, but also found that the 200mm f4 Nikkor-Q.C holds up well with tubes.

The Nikkor-Q.C also focuses as close as 2 meters. The PK-11 and 12 hardly bring a benefit, but the PK-13 works quite well for narrower ranges. WIth the PN-11 the lens is still very usable. I found however that when stacking extension tubes the viewfinder does become very dark.

With a PN-11 and 2x PK-13 the image quality suffered.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Matthew Currie on September 02, 2016, 23:28:05
Just for grins I put on all three of the Vivitar tubes, making a total of 68 mm. of extension, and went out again.  It's kind of windy, and as the Solitaire mentions, the viewfinder gets pretty dark,  all of which makes focus a little difficult, but once again, although ergonomic issues make this an unlikely rig for macros, I like the way it sees things.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on September 03, 2016, 03:49:11
How come you can get good pictures with a 50 year old lens, while others need the latest AF-S APO Aspherical Nano VR wunder-optik ?? :o :o :o

As for extension tubes, the Nikkor-Q 200mm went from the old chrome barrel version focusing to 3m, to the black barrel focusing to 2m, with virtually the same optics, so the lens surely performs well with a little more extension (I wonder why it didn't go to 2m in the first place?)

this lens sure is crazy. If only i can show you the crop for the building you can see the tiles clearly defined all the way to the edge. tile-by-tile the details were there :o :o :o

according to the 1001 nights site, the black barrel model had some optical refinements made, maybe an element was reshaped or spaced differently? I tried swapping the elements of this lens to another one (the new version) just to see what will happen since I have one opened anyway and I got a hazy image all throughout the range meaning that the optics were probably reshaped or re-spaced ::) it's as if i wasnt wearing any glasses and my vision is blurred. nothing was sharp even the centre of the image.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on September 03, 2016, 03:53:37
Nikkor-Q 200/4.0 is a formidable, considering its 40+year-old design.

I had tried it with PN-11, and its round rendition and creamy bokeh was very pleasing, so far as I remember.

surprisingly, performance dropped when I tried using it this morning with an M2 ring :o :o :o
it brought the minimum focus distance to about 1.5m and maximum focus to around 3m. I cannot even focus on some ducks in the pond that were around 4m away from me ::) it's is decently sharp but not micro-nikkor sharp. ::)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on September 03, 2016, 03:58:05

e.t.a. the camera is a D3200, set at ISO 200, shutter speed 1/250, aperture 5.6 on the first, 8 on the second.  First was a little too bright, needing some highlight recovery.

nice bee shots! I love bees ::)
how long is the vivitar tube?

here are crops of the images that I posted before. looks decent to me but again, nowhere near the micro-nikkors. :o :o :o there was fringing happening and they went away with LR's awesome tool. the images were shot wide-open. at f/5.6 the fringing was largely gone but the sharpness did not improve much. This is the same thing that I noticed when using the lens without any tubes and shooting medium ranged subjects. really sharp at f/4 and does not really benefit much from stopping down. I would even go as far as say that the image quality can rival that from the 70-200VR2 ::)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on September 03, 2016, 03:59:57
I found however that when stacking extension tubes the viewfinder does become very dark.

never got that this morning since it was sunny :o :o :o

i did notice some IQ loss when used with an M ring ::)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on September 03, 2016, 04:01:56
ergonomic issues make this an unlikely rig for macros, I like the way it sees things.

i read somewhere that this makes for a very good relay lens. it makes perfect sense since it only has 4 elements :o :o :o
the 200mm f/4K and above were very good for this
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Matthew Currie on September 03, 2016, 04:06:13
Richard, the first two shots were with a single 36 mm. tube, the last one with all three in the set adding up to 68.  My ability to focus was pretty poor, I think, even with the aid of a tripod (hand held would have been impossible today),  and it doesn't help that I'm a bit out of focus today anyway, but I really like the tone.  Maybe I'm just succumbing to the placebo effect, but it seems as if some of those old lenses just have a lush, deep look that newer ones don't.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on September 03, 2016, 15:10:26
Richard, the first two shots were with a single 36 mm. tube, the last one with all three in the set adding up to 68.  My ability to focus was pretty poor, I think, even with the aid of a tripod (hand held would have been impossible today),  and it doesn't help that I'm a bit out of focus today anyway, but I really like the tone.  Maybe I'm just succumbing to the placebo effect, but it seems as if some of those old lenses just have a lush, deep look that newer ones don't.

focusing was difficult with mine as well. f/4 is more difficult to manual focus than f/2.8 because the distinction between what's in focus and what is not is very difficult to determine. :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on October 09, 2016, 15:20:51
The 200/4  QC is a nice lens, great colours,  smooth rendering, and the later versions have the advantage of 2m close focus.

Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on October 10, 2016, 13:55:49
the older 3m version isn't so bad either. that was a pleasant surprise. :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on October 11, 2016, 11:05:21
A nice surprise indeed  ;)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Matthew Currie on October 19, 2016, 03:41:29
I can't figure out just what it is about this lens.  I've been using it again with extension tubes.  It's ridiculously long, clumsy, hard to hold steady, and it ought to be impossible to focus well on the D3200, and impossible to keep distance hand held with 68 millimeters of extension, and yet it works better than many others.  Becoming a favorite for chasing bugs!
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on January 02, 2017, 01:28:17
http://richardhaw.com/2017/01/01/repair-nikkor-q-20cm-f4/

OK just finished a teardown for the 20cm :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on January 02, 2017, 03:00:40
Rick, Happy New Year!  Appreciate, as always, your effort on the teardown articles.  I was surprised by the use of the"" rubber" gasket between the first two elements.  Isn't it deteriorated?  Also I wonder if the distance between the elements would vary according to the torque of the retaining ring?
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on January 02, 2017, 04:37:50
Hello, Akira! Happy new year!

You are correct, the rubber ring does compress a bit  ::)
I am not sure about that so far so good ::)

here is the front elements from the earliest version I have. it's so old that the gasket and 2 front elements now move as 1 unit :o :o :o
they have fused together
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Akira on January 02, 2017, 07:43:39
That's what I suspected.  That said, it is amazing to know that the gasket has been functioning properly for around half a century!
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: RonVol on January 02, 2017, 10:14:05
http://richardhaw.com/2017/01/01/repair-nikkor-q-20cm-f4/

OK just finished a teardown for the 20cm :o :o :o

Nice work (again) Ric.
Thanks for sharing this valuable info.
Waiting for when the Nikkor Lens Repair book is published  ;D
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on January 02, 2017, 11:43:37
That's what I suspected.  That said, it is amazing to know that the gasket has been functioning properly for around half a century!
it is Nikkor! like volkswagen :o :o :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on January 02, 2017, 11:44:42
Nice work (again) Ric.
Thanks for sharing this valuable info.
Waiting for when the Nikkor Lens Repair book is published  ;D

Thanks! somebody suggested that I do a compilation for a book :o :o :o
it's probably useless since it's available online ::)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on January 02, 2017, 11:45:57
the 1st version (without the silver knob on the hood) eludes me. I got the next best thing from the junk box, which is fine. :o :o :o
I hope I will get one cheap from the junker ::)
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: RonVol on January 02, 2017, 19:48:41
the 1st version (without the silver knob on the hood) eludes me. I got the next best thing from the junk box, which is fine. :o :o :o
I hope I will get one cheap from the junker ::)

They are extremely difficult to find.
I've been looking for close to 6 years now and have never actually seen one for sale.......anywhere!
Good luck in finding one.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Peter on January 21, 2017, 03:20:10
Just scored a Q.C. 135mm f2.8 factory Ai for $40.00 shipped and was surprised by the images it produces almost if not as good as my 200 f4 Ai.
I was also surprised by the condition of the glass, it was Cristal clear front to back not a scratch on the glass.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: richardHaw on January 21, 2017, 08:58:52
Just scored a Q.C. 135mm f2.8 factory Ai for $40.00 shipped and was surprised by the images it produces almost if not as good as my 200 f4 Ai.
I was also surprised by the condition of the glass, it was Cristal clear front to back not a scratch on the glass.

https://richardhaw.com/2016/04/21/repair-nikkor-q-135mm-f2-8/
This lens?  :o :o :o
it is a lovely lens and I liked it a lot! very dreamy!
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Peter on January 23, 2017, 04:35:14
https://richardhaw.com/2016/04/21/repair-nikkor-q-135mm-f2-8/
This lens?  :o :o :o
it is a lovely lens and I liked it a lot! very dreamy!
That be the one.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Koerner on January 26, 2017, 21:03:35
crazy, I got this lens for $3.50  :o :o :o

What a steal!!  :o
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Koerner on January 26, 2017, 21:04:56
The Nikon/Nikkormat Handbook, Joseph Cooper, states that the selected groups of the Nikkor-S 55/1.2 were the first to be multicoated, starting in 1969. The selection of surfaces being multi-coated were "guided" by the computer. I believe the 35/1.4 and 28/2 were multi-coated early on. I had one of those 55/1.2 lenses, but sold it and kept the Nikkor-SC.

Interesting. I had just asked a question about this not less than an hour ago.

Curious the distinction between this lens and the Noct. f/1.2
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: pluton on January 27, 2017, 05:53:59
Didn't the 24/2.8 N (9/7) also allegedly feature multi coating on 'certain elements', even in it's first, pre-.C version?
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Roland Vink on January 30, 2017, 22:56:04
No, the 24/2.8 was the first lens with floating elements/close range correction (CRC)

The 55/1.2 may have been the first Nikkor with multicoated elements, if so it was a silent upgrade as I can't find any distinct start point. The multicoating was only on a few surfaces in the rear, it shows as a green reflection at certain angles, as opposed to the single-layer amber and reddish-purple coatings on the other surfaces. Nikon may have initially regarded multicoating as Nano Crystal Coating today - to be used only on selected surfaces which otherwise might cause a lot of flare. However, Nikon's multi-layer coating is tough enough to be used on external surfaces, and not too difficult to apply, so was applied to all lens surfaces within a few years. The first lens to be fully multicoated was the Nikkor-N 35/1.4, followed by the Nikkor-N 28/2 a few months later.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: paul hofseth on December 19, 2021, 15:53:40
Interesting collection of texts on nikkor200ds, which I sought up today since I just aquired a  somewhat later rubber grip version of he 200

I particularly like the digressions in this thread, so let me fopllow up with a non 200Q remark. yesterday I compared it with the similar Angenieux "DEM APO" thing and found both to be roughly equally sharp at infinity on my Nikon7. Since I am of the less sensitive type not caring about bokeh, but only about resolution and contrast I did not bother to take a number of snaps.

p.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Hauge on December 26, 2021, 23:05:20
A question for you Nikkor 200/4 experts...

I have a sample of No.5 (What i suppose is the last version, of this great lens).

Not i have the chance to get my hands on a sample of No.3.
Will there be a difference?
And how?

The seller is stating, that i has some friction (dried out grease?)
So it would need at least a tear down, and relube...

Every input will be greatly appreciated.

And thanks for the borrowing of showed picture...
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on December 27, 2021, 00:03:40
The optical formula is different.
See more on Roland’s pages:
http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/index.html
You may find repair tips on Richard Haws site:
https://richardhaw.com/
Both are member on Nikongear.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Birna Rørslett on December 27, 2021, 08:57:15
The latest of the Q 200 Nikkor is a nice lens, not as sharp as the  AI/IAS versions that replaced it, but it handles better in my opinion.

The built-in lens hood is a little sloppy, like the other versions.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Hauge on December 27, 2021, 10:27:45
Bent and Birna, thank you very much!

The sites linked to, are very interesting, and bookmarked!

And as to handling. That is a very big issue, due to not having the best of motor skills.
There i'we often felt the AI as a little to light, and thus not used that much.
There the AF 80-200/2.8 ED (push-pull) handles better, though it really ain't up to the competition from the AI 200/4.
This is why, i hope to have the handling/weight, compared with (most of) the performance from the Prime...

Birna, may i ask, if You know, how the Q and AI differs? - Especially with the D200?

Best regards
Tonni
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Birna Rørslett on December 27, 2021, 11:40:02
In my personal experience I found the 200/4 AIS to balance not equally well on a medium heavy camera as did the 200/4 Q. The focus travel is longer on the Q. The AI version has a nicer outline however foucsing is stiffer (I have tried several copies). The 200/4 AIS focuses smoother, perhaps too smooth, and has shorter travel. In terms of optical performance, the AI & AIS models outperform the Q Nikkors largely due to better image contrast, but perhaps their bokeh is a little less adorable.

In the ~200mm class, the Voigtländer 180mm f/4 APO is the smallest and sharpest, but its focusing travel is short and thus not an easy lens for hand-held shooting. Besides, it tends to be very elusive to find, and price is much higher.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: MEPER on December 27, 2021, 14:22:29
Maybe the AF-Nikkor ED 200/3.5 (will only AF with F3AF / F4 etc.) could be considered for the optical quality?
They are a bit rare but quite cheap. It is a heavy lens because it has built-in AF-motor which is not used. It has to be used with MF. It will focus down to 2m. Focus ring is narrow and a bit stiff because it also turns the AF-motor but fully functional.
IF-focus and also a built-in shade. I got a mint one from Japan. The few test images I have shot with it indicated good optical quality but how it compares to the 180/4 for general photography I don't know?
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Birna Rørslett on December 27, 2021, 14:58:26
The 200/3.5 ED is quite large and heavy, and to be frank, its ability in terms of manual focusing is very sub standard. In fact, slow and imprecise due to the drag of the AF system (never entirely decoupled). The little brother 80/2.8AF shares the drag "feature", but still feels a little less imprecise in its focus operation.

In terms of optical performance, the 200/3.5 ED is better than the straight 200  Nikkors, but not better than the 180/4 CV.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: MEPER on December 27, 2021, 15:29:07
Just before the sun went down I took some of my usual test images with 200/3.5 at 3.5 handheld at ISO400 (Z50).
I have one of the F-buttons assigned to zoom in at the viewfinder for precise MF focus. The challenge is to hold body steady enough to verify exact focus in the viewfinder. With a little practice it is doable.
Have attached the full image and two 100% crops. I think the sensor resolution on Z50 limits what the lens can do at 3.5?
Lens should be purchased for sharpness and not for "ergonomics". On a tripod it will perform even better or maybe a body with IBIS?
Will expect the bokeh to be good also.......but have not looked into this yet.

 
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: MEPER on December 27, 2021, 19:00:00
The 200/3.5 ED looks almost like a scaled down version of the AIS 300/2.8 ED?

https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/AFNikkor/F3AFlenses/index.htm (https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/AFNikkor/F3AFlenses/index.htm)
https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/telephotos/300mmedif28/index.htm (https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/telephotos/300mmedif28/index.htm)

Both 8 elements in 6 groups (two front elements are ED-glass)?

They are also both from the same time period?
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on December 27, 2021, 21:41:13
From what I understood the 200/3.5 ED is the scaled up version of the 180/2.8 ED
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Roland Vink on December 27, 2021, 22:32:14
The 200/3.5 ED is an IF design with 8 elements in 6 groups. A similar configuration is found in the AI 300/2.8 IF-ED, AF 180/2.8 IF-ED and several other telephotos from the late 1970s - 1980s. The AI-S 180/2.8 ED is a unit focusing lens with 5 elements, the optics have more in common with the earlier unit-focusing telephotos with the separate focus unit.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Roland Vink on December 27, 2021, 22:52:24
In my personal experience I found the 200/4 AIS to balance not equally well on a medium heavy camera as did the 200/4 Q. The focus travel is longer on the Q. The AI version has a nicer outline however foucsing is stiffer (I have tried several copies). The 200/4 AIS focuses smoother, perhaps too smooth, and has shorter travel. In terms of optical performance, the AI & AIS models outperform the Q Nikkors largely due to better image contrast, but perhaps their bokeh is a little less adorable.

Among the AIS lenses the 200/4 is unusual in that the focus throw is the same as the AI version at 205° (AIS lenses usually have a shorter focus throw). The K, AI and AIS versions all share the same 5-element optical design and the coatings are similar so there won't be any significant difference in optical performance. All have 9 aperture blades but the K and AI versions have "sawtooth" aperture openings at f/5.6 because the aperture blade tips don't fully overlap. The AIS version does not have this issue, giving a nice 9-sided polygon at all aperture settings without any spikes around the edge. The AIS version is marginally lighter and has a slimmer, and in my opinion, more attractive profile. For these reasons the AIS version is my first choice.

Among the earlier models, the last version is the Nikkor-Q.C, where the ".C" indicates the lenses are multicoated. This will give better colours and contrast compared to earlier versions, so if you like the appearance of the older lens this is the best choice unless you want an old-school low contrast look to your images. The slide-out hood is not as wobbly like the later versions and has a click-stop when fully extended so you are less likely to push it in by accident. The focus throw from infinity to 2m is 210°, so virtually the same as the later versions.

The early chrome barrel versions only focus to 3m which is rather limiting for this focal length.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: MEPER on December 28, 2021, 11:19:12
I tried to perform same test using my Nikkor Q-C 200/4 as I did a few posts ago using the 200/3.5 ED.
I did it this morning so light condition is not 100% identical but I think close enough to compare. Z50 at ISO400 handheld using zoom-in in viewfinder to focus at F4.
I was quite surprised by the performance. Why are so many lens elements used in todays lenses when four lens elements are enough? :-)
I remember years back that I was warned about getting this lens as it was said not to be able to make a sharp image. I then wondered why Nikon made it for so many years.
The bad reputations was probably because lens was used mostly by amateurs and used handheld with poor focus technique and slow shutter speed.

It is quite sharp wide open?
Attached the full frame image and three 100% crops.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Birna Rørslett on December 28, 2021, 13:22:05
The Q 200 Nikkors have more chromatic aberrations with digital camera than the others options.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: MEPER on December 28, 2021, 13:49:07
A small amount of purple fringe?

I found an older Nikkor-Q boxed!
The old boxes were nicer than newer ones.
The focus action very smooth.
There were some papers included. Danish and Japanese warranty cards.
The lens was purchased 19th september, 1967 by someone. The fotoshop closed some years ago.

 
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on December 28, 2021, 14:37:39
I checked my 200mm f/4 QC  serial nr: 623955  last version of the Q

On the Z7  f/4    1/200  ISO 400    no corrections made


Second image 100% crop
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: MEPER on December 28, 2021, 14:58:53
It shows some amount of purple fringe and sharpness is ok but not great?
I can see that the 200/3.5 ED images are a bit cleaner. On Z50 I was a bit more impressed by the 200 Q-C.
I used NX Studio to convert the RAW image. I wonder how much CA correction NX Studio makes by default. It does not know the lens so I guess it can't correct much?
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: Birna Rørslett on December 28, 2021, 15:32:48
Many if not all of the modern RAW conversion programs can deal just fine with lateral CA. Axial colour (or longitudinal CA) is much more troublesome.

If you are in doubt, run RAW + Jpg in-camera and look at the jpgs later on. They tend to be pretty clean in terms of colour aberrations, unless the lens makes them in the plenty.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: MEPER on December 28, 2021, 16:46:52
Can see my NX Studio has Lateral correction activated.
Then the Q-C images would probably look a bit worse and 200/3.5 ED images would probably still look fine.
For pure lens test it is best to have it deactivated but for a practical lens test better to have it on as that would be the normal way to convert the images.
Title: Re: The Nikkor-Q 200mm f/4!
Post by: John Geerts on January 06, 2022, 08:39:05
It shows some amount of purple fringe and sharpness is ok but not great?
I can see that the 200/3.5 ED images are a bit cleaner. On Z50 I was a bit more impressed by the 200 Q-C.
I used NX Studio to convert the RAW image. I wonder how much CA correction NX Studio makes by default. It does not know the lens so I guess it can't correct much?
With down sizing on the Z7 most of the purple fringing is gone.  Anyway, it's easy to remove.  A pretty sharp lens on the Nikon Z7