NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: averity on March 04, 2023, 22:48:46
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WT! happened to my Z9?
I thought I was taking good care of my camera, it has just a couple of months of use, it is a serial number affected by the recall for the lens mount, I haven’t returned it yet for rework due to workload. Today I took it out to shoot my sons rugby match and found it wasn’t working, upon closer inspection I found this! It has lived most of its life so far inside a big camera bag fitted with the FTZII and the 24-70mm f2.8E ED VR with the lens cap on.
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The camera with lens has pointed towards the sun for some time :( The shutter shield tiles hence are partly melted or fused together.
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The camera with lens has pointed towards the sun for some time :( The shutter shield tiles hence are partly melted or fused together.
that is certainly what it looks like, but I cannot see how this is possible, with the way I use the camera, anyway, I expect it is going to be expensive.
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Sorry about the mishap. I didn't know that this protection shutter curtain was made of plastic...
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Ouch. If it is indeed sun damage, is it likely to be regarded as self-inflicted by Nikon support/service?
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Looks like it was happening over several occasions,,, Tracing the suns movement,,,
The sensor filter package is likely burned or scored as well, if the sunlight when trough the shield curtain.
I'm also baffled that the shield curtain appears to be made form some sort of plastic,,, :o
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I am totally lost on how this could have happened, my camera lives in its bag and this looks like it has been exposed for hours looking directly at the sun and as you say Erik, like multiple marks of sun track over the cover.
lets see what Nikon say, I will try to drop it off today
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We all are curious as to what Nikon service has to say on this problem ....
The shutter shield is mainly for keeping dust and dirt off the sensor, so is comprised of light weight plastic tiles. Actually I dislocated these a number of times when I was experimenting with my X-ray to Z adapter. The tiles ride on a small peg, which may become undone if the shield encounters force from the front. Using a small tweezer, I became adapt of picking the tiles up and navigating them to their correct position.
The reason averty's Z9 'died' is probably it was set up to activate the shutter shield when the camera was turned off. Now the shield tiles are fused and cannot retreat as they should do. Have you tried deactivate the shield and switch the camera on/off several times?
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Which lens was attached to the Z9 body?
The sun-rays (if caused by sun) has been very concentrated at the "curtain-point"?
Does is make sense that rays have its "burning point" at "curtain-level"?
It probably depend of which lens was attached? .....so if we know the lens focal length?
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Ok......24-70 with cap on..... :-)
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Cold be prior owner of the Z9 if second hand or was it brand new when you got it?
Did you lens it out to someone?
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We all are curious as to what Nikon service has to say on this problem ....
The shutter shield is mainly for keeping dust and dirt off the sensor, so is comprised of light weight plastic tiles. Actually I dislocated these a number of times when I was experimenting with my X-ray to Z adapter. The tiles ride on a small peg, which may become undone if the shield encounters force from the front. Using a small tweezer, I became adapt of picking the tiles up and navigating them to their correct position.
The reason averty's Z9 'died' is probably it was set up to activate the shutter shield when the camera was turned off. Now the shield tiles are fused and cannot retreat as they should do. Have you tried deactivate the shield and switch the camera on/off several times?
the leaves of the shutter are welded together, I did try to pass a thin piece of plastic between them and where the worst part is they are quite solidly welded together.
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Cold be prior owner of the Z9 if second hand or was it brand new when you got it?
Did you lens it out to someone?
the sequence of events which makes me doubt my own sanity,,,,,
camera was purchased new, from Grays in London,
collected 1 week of December 2022
recently ----- 4-hour commercial photoshoot inside a hairdressers shop using continuous lighting three weeks ago the camera worked perfectly,
spent two weeks away working on a ship with the camera in the boot of my car in a big Lowepro bag with the lens cap on inside the bag.
This last weekend took the battery off of the camera charged it fully put it back in, formatted both cards and took it to my son's rugby match, took it out of the bag replaced the 24-70mm 2.8 with the Nikon 105mm 1:1.4 AF-S as I wanted to do some individual portraits of the team members before the game, (didn't remove the converter until I looked for a reason why it didn't work,) switched the camera on and saw the back screen all black
some tears
photo of the above damage with my iPhone upon returning home.
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Based on the pattern of travel it would appear that the lens cap was not on at the time this occurred. Perhaps the lens was being put away when a strong infrared heat source was in the vicinity which had wavelength which allowed it to focus on the shutter plane. Given the right focus and a strong enough source it would not take much to melt that plastic.
Next up for the Z9II - ceramic curtain blades.
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Based on the pattern of travel it would appear that the lens cap was not on at the time this occurred. Perhaps the lens was being put away when a strong infrared heat source was in the vicinity which had wavelength which allowed it to focus on the shutter plane. Given the right focus and a strong enough source it would not take much to melt that plastic.
Next up for the Z9II - ceramic curtain blades.
:'(
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repair not covered under warranty
Spare parts € 2065.04
1329Z-A0P9A6 SHANDING UNIT
1359G-A0S54K IMAGING BRACKET UNIT
+ standard service charge
+ vat
almost 3k
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Why is it more than just the "shutter unit"?
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Why is it more than just the "shutter unit"?
yes, the report says they need to change the CCD as well
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Ok, that probably explains the high cost......
Do you have a personal Insurance that could cover part of the cost?
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I do not think think that the Z9 protective shutter may be made of plastic. My guess is that it is similar to a normal focal plane shutter, however with a design focus more toward robustness than for highest shutter speeds of 1/8000 sec. So the shutter blades cannot be very much thicker. The dark color and texture really makes me think of the similarity. A protective shutter could be white or mirrored for better resistance against accidental hole burning by a fast lens pointing to the sun unnoticedly.
I learned the hard way about the sensitivity of shutter blades. Pointing a D7200 with a AF 135mm f/2 DC at f/2.8 briefly into the sun in LV mode for a test shot did damage to the shutter, but not to the sensor. The short moment of obscuring the sensor before the the picture exposure was enough to burn through the thin metal curtain. A more detailed report is at https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65673774
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@Bernard Delley a very interesting article, I would never dream of opening an expensive camera,,, I am very worried about this happening again, I am extremly tempted to just cut my losses and forget about repairing the Z9
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I would not do DIY on a Z9 now. I also guess that there is paucity of replacement parts for the protective shutter as of now. These are gathered from broken cameras in Asia for resale.
I sure would do 3 tests to evaluate, if there is damage to the sensor.
Test 1 is black frame: lens cap on, manual exposure 1/5 s ISO 6400, the background noise should be reasonably uniform and show no evidence of the burn. Maybe needs boost in PP to near reasonable gray, to reasonably see something. Settings could be varied. 1/5s exposure was the longest with most previous Nikon models, where no "hot pixel suppression" algorithm was applied to the raw data.
Test 2 defocused uniformly illuminated image, maybe sky, say f/4. To check if pixel responses show no burn damage.
Test 3 defocused uniformly illuminated image, maybe sky, f/22 or more closed if possible. To check if burn has deposited debris on top of the sensor stack. (if yes, can it be cleaned?)
The result of test 1-3 could be used as argument at Nikon for not changing the sensor.
If you are on a trip, you still have a functioning camera as is. Evidence of damage could be minimized in PP for each image.
It would be not acceptable for me to work with a damaged camera in the longer run. I would bite the bullet for the appropriate repair cost or other measures, like sell as damaged.
Prevention can be done by having a lens cap while the camera is not in use.
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I happen to be reviewing my household insurance continuation. Curiously, they try to expand their business by offering a choosable section of all-risks type for electronic stuff. I have to double check if it really is what I seem to understand. It seems inexpensive. I always felt , I need to take responsibility for self inflicted mishaps and have to have enough dough left for an appropriate fix. On more serious travel, it means having backup camera and lens(es) with me to start with.
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I happen to be reviewing my household insurance continuation. Curiously, they try to expand their business by offering a choosable section of all-risks type for electronic stuff. I have to double check if it really is what I seem to understand. It seems inexpensive. I always felt , I need to take responsibility for self inflicted mishaps and have to have enough dough left for an appropriate fix. On more serious travel, it means having backup camera and lens(es) with me to start with.
I agree with what you say, it’s no one’s fault but mine, the problem I have is I don’t know what I did to cause it, I certainly didn’t knowingly point it at the sun, I am wondering how long it takes to make such damage in the hot Spanish sun.
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Calvin, how unfortunate thats quite a bit of bad luck! May hope you will find the proper solution!
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It takes a fraction of a second pointing accidentally into the sun as my experience with the 135mm at f/2.8 on the D7200 shows. If the aperture is near open, no cap on the lens, it might have happened putting the camera back to the bag.
I hope Nikon becomes aware of the problem, which is likely to happen again with somebody. A white or mirrored protector might stand almost 100 times more exposure before melt/evaporation. I hope to see such on the next model.
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The shield tiles seem to be easily interchangeable. Thus Nikon might provide an easy "fix" by supplying white tiles in the future? Meanwhile it appears prudent to focus any lens away from infinity when the camera is put in the bag, and a lens cap is an additional safety measure (until it, inevitably, get lost).
It is worth noting that the shield is *not* a shutter curtain and its only task is to prevent ingress of dirt and dust onto the sensor itself.
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On the basis that the shutter would be changed in any "official" repair - I would take a scapel or other thin steel blade and gently insert the tip between the top two shutters to one side and gently work it towards the burnt area with a twisting motion to separate the shutters.
Once the shutters are separate, clean up any proud plastic and test the operation of the camera - if it works OK then I would send it in to Nikon for the recall - they might just possibly fix the shutter too!
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I've rearranged these shield tiles a number of times when I was experimenting with my adapter for X-ray lenses :( The lens got stuck on the shield and either blocked camera operation or made the tiles become loose or disarranged. Sometimes just 1 of the tiles was in place. A fine-pointed tweezer and some patience fixed the problem. The Z9, fortunately, is very forgiving of my sins.
Regarding terminology, I think we should not apply the term 'shutter' (although it is correct if one sees the device as a kind of Venetian blind) since it is easy to confuse the shield with a true shutter [curtain]. The Z9 has no [mechanical] shutter and the shield is, as stated before, just protection against ingress of dust and dirt onto the sensor.
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got my copy of the Z9 back yesterday, lucky for me the sensor was ok and didn't need replacement, I attach some photos and the invoice in case of interest to anyone
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Thank you for sharing!
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Not too bad then - I see Nikon refer to it as a shanding unit (sic) - I wonder if that should be shading!
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The unit did do its job after all. Protected the sensor and prevented damage. Too bad it was so expensive but it's sort of like the cost of replacing the bumper on a modern automobile--very costly but less than replacing other body parts.
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Menos mal...uf.
Not bad at all.
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I still have the D6 and D850 as my daily workhorses. A couple of months ago, Nikon Switzerland (NPS) loaned me a Z9 kit. Although everything went fine, I was a bit concerned about the overall ruggedness of the piece of kit. Particularly the battery door. Not sure if the Z9 would be as resilient as my D’s.
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I have the same feeling and therefore keep my D850 as my rugged workhorse. But it's possibly more of a perception we get from holding the Zs. I once dropped a Z5 on hard floor and other than bending the aluminium sunshade of the mounted Voigtländer it still worked fine. Holding a Zf is also special as you can feel the sensor unit moving when the camera is off. I don't particularly like this as it suggests you to be super careful. But I'm sure this isn't actually required.