NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Lens Talk => Topic started by: chambeshi on December 14, 2021, 07:52:58
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https://www.nikon.com/news/2021/1214_lens_02.htm
it's clear Nikon is now confident they can mass produce phase-fresnel elements of 127mm ø Impressive engineering!
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Interesting. The latest 400/2.8 and 600/4.0 by Sony and Canon are roughly 1kg lighter than the F-mount lenses of the same specifications, and Nikon hasn't responded to the competition. Now that Nikon announced this 800/6.3 PF which should be significantly smaller and lighter than the F-mount 800/5.6, the up-and-coming Z-mount 400/2.8 and 600/4.0 could be game changers!
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Same length as the S 400/2.8 but a lot slimmer and probably a lot lighter and cheaper.
The Sony 400/2.8 only weighs 2.9kg and 600/4 3.0kg so the 800mm could land around the weight of a 200-500VR :o
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The PF element doesn't necessarily have to be one of the largest ones, though admittedly it has been in the two PF Nikkors available so far.
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It will be interesting to see the final optical design.
If the prime on launch corresponds to the existing silhouette in the roadmap, then back-of-the-envelope ratios (calculated off the 100-400 S) puts this 800 f6.3 at approx 140 x 315 mm overall dimensions.
Without a reliable Phase-Fresnel scaling factor for telephoto mass, the weight is harder to guesstimate, but 58% of 4.59kg = 2.66 for a hypothetical 800 f5.6, so a 800 f6.3S PF can be expected to weigh < 2.5kg, perhaps even 2.3kg. Consider the 300 PF @ 89 x 148 mm, 0.755kg [58% of the 1.295kg 300 f4AFD] and 500 PF @ 106-237 mm, 1.46kg.
Compared to the 4.59kg 800 f5.6E FL of 160 x 461 mm, this 140 x 315 mm 800 f6.3S PF has indeed undergone a major slimming! One often reads forum posts stating a 3kg telephoto is about their maximum comfortable handholding weight, but I manage short durations with 5.3kg of 400 f2.8E & D5 with TC2, so I another who finds that handholding the 500 PF is a doddle.
I also learnt some years ago how a heavy DSLR is a key to balance a long heavy lens. Poor weight distribution can be a killer IME if a telephoto is 'front-end heavy', this makes a 300 f2.8G VRII harder to handhold than the much better balanced 400 f2.8E FL. Besides this 800 f6.3 PF trimming major weight for handholding, hiking and flying, we also know the Z MILC AF works reliably at lens speeds slower than f8. So the superior image quality of the TZTC14 and ZTC2 underscore even more bonuses.
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Those PF lenses are defying the expected laws of physics for focal length vs weight ratios.
Chris Dees came over for coffee and lunch last Friday and I briefly handled his 500PF which was a very strange experience, it was so short and well balanced that the brain had a hard time computing it was really a 500mm 5.6 attached to the D500. I fully understand its popularity now when it is as sharp as people claim :)
I am curious where the pro wildlife and bird photographers will gravitate to, am recently following Steve Perry and Mark Smith on the tube whom are both Nikon shooters whom are now using the Sony 600/4 on an A1 and the 200-600mm on a second body. Both have ordered the Z9 so it will be interesting to see which blend of F and Zee tele lenses they will end up with using now that there will be more options to choose from on the Zee platform.
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I couldn't help wondering if a 700/5.6 would be a better balance between focal length and speed. 800mm and f/6.3 seems rather long and slow to me (it is nearly two stops faster than the Canon 800/11). A 700/5.6 would have the same size a front element as the 800/6.3 so overall the lens would be about the same size, a little shorter, which would be even easier to hand-hold. Adding a 1.4x TC would also give a useful 1000/8 lens. However, I have no doubt the 800/6.3 will be popular with birders where every mm of reach is useful.
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A very well add-on to the overall lens line-up. So far no Z-Supertele is available, two development announcements and the 100-400. Lets see what is still to come and how these lenses perform. So far I am very reluctant to plan aquisition of a Z-mount supertele as I am well equipped with F-mount "big-glass".
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I have about 30’000 retained pictures made both with the 500 PF and the 70-200E FL. The weight difference is nil (30 grams). The 500mm is 3cm longer. However, the handling of the 500mm is much “lighter”, easier (less weight to the end).
I was quite skeptical about Fresnel lenses. Though, it was probably the best “lens” thing which happened to me: weight, optical quality.
So, a very good thing that Nikon finally dares to extend their PF line :)
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I couldn't help wondering if a 700/5.6 would be a better balance between focal length and speed. 800mm and f/6.3 seems rather long and slow to me (it is nearly two stops faster than the Canon 800/11). A 700/5.6 would have the same size a front element as the 800/6.3 so overall the lens would be about the same size, a little shorter, which would be even easier to hand-hold. Adding a 1.4x TC would also give a useful 1000/8 lens. However, I have no doubt the 800/6.3 will be popular with birders where every mm of reach is useful.
800mm is the traditional upper end for telephoto lenses with conventional refractive optics over the last 25+ years, notwithstanding a few exceptions here and there in earlier decades (or the ultra-rare, ultra-expensive Canon EF 1200/5.6). Nikon is probably thinking conventionally here, and not wanting to be left behind by Canon or Sony putting out an 800mm telephoto with a competitive or better aperture. Nevertheless, your points are good and make sense.
As it is, I'll be content with my 500/5.6 PF, on a D500 for now and at some later time on an FTZ. For me, a field of view equivalent to that of a 600mm lens on a full-frame sensor has worked out well in most cases for photographing medium to large birds (i.e. 400mm on DX or 300mm on Micro Four Thirds). Some cropping is still required most of the time, though.
Others will have different needs of course. This lens should be very useful to many serious wildlife photographers. It will be possible to carry it into the field some distance. Together with VR and IBIS, photographers will be able to use this lens without a tripod at least at times though a monopod would be better. That's still a much more portable setup than a conventional 800/5.6 on a hefty tripod. The Z9 and this lens should be a killer combo for some applications, in providing previously unattainable combinations of reach, portability, resolution, and speed.
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A very well add-on to the overall lens line-up. So far no Z-Supertele is available, two development announcements and the 100-400. Lets see what is still to come and how these lenses perform. So far I am very reluctant to plan aquisition of a Z-mount supertele as I am well equipped with F-mount "big-glass".
Same here, one day I would like to own some big glass again but am saving for a 6 in line Bimmer at the moment for the next series of fast paced roadtrips across Europe, for whenever things go back to normal with the lockdowns and such. Petrol cars are going extinct in a few years, might as well enjoy them for one more run now that they are still available and I am still young enough to enjoy them properly haha.
Once the wheels are sorted it would be nice to bring one of the new long teles along for the ride :)
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800mm is the traditional upper end for telephoto lenses with conventional refractive optics over the last 25+ years, notwithstanding a few exceptions here and there in earlier decades (or the ultra-rare, ultra-expensive Canon EF 1200/5.6). Nikon is probably thinking conventionally here, and not wanting to be left behind by Canon or Sony putting out an 800mm telephoto with a competitive or better aperture. Nevertheless, your points are good and make sense.
As it is, I'll be content with my 500/5.6 PF, on a D500 for now and at some later time on an FTZ. For me, a field of view equivalent to that of a 600mm lens on a full-frame sensor has worked out well in most cases for photographing medium to large birds (i.e. 400mm on DX or 300mm on Micro Four Thirds). Some cropping is still required most of the time, though.
Others will have different needs of course. This lens should be very useful to many serious wildlife photographers. It will be possible to carry it into the field some distance. Together with VR and IBIS, photographers will be able to use this lens without a tripod at least at times though a monopod would be better. That's still a much more portable setup than a conventional 800/5.6 on a hefty tripod. The Z9 and this lens should be a killer combo for some applications, in providing previously unattainable combinations of reach, portability, resolution, and speed.
Nikon has made several 1200mm prime lenses as well as zooms covering the range. I have the 1200/11 ED two part tele lens that followed the non-ED version from the 1960s. My lens used 122mm filters and is light enough to pick up with one hand. The min focus distance is a bit challenging with either focusing unit. This new PF lens may be compelling enough for me to part with the 1200...
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Nikon has made several 1200mm prime lenses as well as zooms covering the range. I have the 1200/11 ED two part tele lens that followed the non-ED version from the 1960s. My lens used 122mm filters and is light enough to pick up with one hand. The min focus distance is a bit challenging with either focusing unit. This new PF lens may be compelling enough for me to part with the 1200...
Yes, they did make both prime and zooms in that range in earlier periods which is why I put a time limit on my statement. In more recent times 800mm has seemed to be the usual limit for photographic lenses from mainstream manufacturers. Roland Vink's site (http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/serialno.html) is a great resource for Nikon lenses including manufacture dates.
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Yes, they did make both prime and zooms in that range in earlier periods which is why I put a time limit on my statement. In more recent times 800mm has seemed to be the usual limit for photographic lenses from mainstream manufacturers. Roland Vink's site (http://www.photosynthesis.co.nz/nikon/serialno.html) is a great resource for Nikon lenses including manufacture dates.
Depends on one's age, 25 years ago is recent if one is a dinosaur like me. 2022 will be my 50th anniversary in the Nikon system. I suspect the apparent limit was not an arbitrary focal length but maximum aperture needed for autofocus to work as 25 years ago was well into the switch to AF. Recent developments in AF (especially off the image sensor AF) allow for much slower lenses to be AF-able.
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Depends on one's age, 25 years ago is recent if one is a dinosaur like me. 2022 will be my 50th anniversary in the Nikon system. I suspect the apparent limit was not an arbitrary focal length but maximum aperture needed for autofocus to work as 25 years ago was well into the switch to AF. Recent developments in AF (especially off the image sensor AF) allow for much slower lenses to be AF-able.
Hey, I'm getting into dinosaur-land myself. It's now been over 50 years for me in photography, though too many decades in the middle were spent going nowhere and learning nothing.
Good point about aperture - it used to be that f/5.6 was the realistic limit for AF. There was not going to be a significant market for very expensive MF 1000mm or 1200mm lenses if 800mm AF lenses were available.
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CP+ TV channel showing off the 800 f6.3S PF PF (still not launched). This chap who displays the 800 is clueless in several respects, no idea of the Z9 vertical grip, finger obscuring the front element.... Anyway, this PF telephoto breaks new ground in ergonomics - looking all the more intriguing.
https://youtu.be/DI5h4TblyUc?t=3347
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The photographer seems to be geared for speed and panning, I use the same techniques when time is of the essence or when panning with big tele lenses.
And no the fingers don’t show up in the image when you grap the front of a big tele or hood like that but it improves handling the lens considerably for me personally. When waiting for the next pan action the stretched left arm holds all the weight without muscle tension so the arm does not get tired and when panning you have a much longer arm to manoeuvre the lens for a more controlled and smoother pan.
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Screen grab from dpr thread fyi. One of the presenters comments this 800 f6.3 PF is shorter than the 500 f4E, and they guess at the weight as less than 3kg - between 2-3kg. As least from what I could decipher in the translated dialogue (using closed captions).
Comments on other forums highlight the trumpet chassis, which constricts sharply away from the anterior ~127mm window. Based on the little we know so far, Nikon seemed to have put significant thought into the weight reduction and ergonomics. It is looking impressive ;D
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Preorder is about 17k Eu :o I think 500pf will stay forever on top of the quality/ price scale 8)
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Was Morten using this in his Z9 videos?
Using an 800mm here …
https://youtu.be/uJhQk7M78PE
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Was Morten using this in his Z9 videos?
Using an 800mm here …
https://youtu.be/uJhQk7M78PE
its the F mount f5.6
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Preorder is about 17k Eu :o I think 500pf will stay forever on top of the quality/ price scale 8)
Well this a groundbreaking and real 800mm lens instead of the recently announced Canon RF 800/5.6 which is their old DSLR 400/2.8 EF lens with fixed 2xTC builtin :o ::)
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Is this price authentic? So far there has no authentic indications, nor leaks. There was this but it's clickbait - https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/features/the-dollar16000-nikon-z-800mm-f63-has-just-appeared-but-why-isnt-it-an-f56
Preorder is about 17k Eu :o I think 500pf will stay forever on top of the quality/ price scale 8)
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Well I was asking myself about the possible pricing- but 16-17k? did not expect that (UPDATE - and it is in no way confirmed)
that would be in the range of the F-mount AF-S 800/5,6 and beyond the newly presentet 400/2,8 Z-mount with all sorts of new glass
and it confuse sme a bit, as I have considered PF lenses as compact lightweight designs with high image quality that comes close to faster and heavier sisters but with compromises regarding not so good bokeh ...
This 800 PF appears to have the size
So far Nikon and canon had 800/5,6 lenses alternately, now canon came for RG with 600 and 800/11 and will provide 800/5,6 and 1200/8 (mirrorless gives new optoins for not so fast lenses) and Nikon adds the 800/6,3 with the same price as the current 5,6
I think I am going to stick with F-mount teles for the near to midterm future
BTW The Nikon 800/5,6 is a very fine lens with probably the best teleconverter existing as companion. It also shares a lot of common desigh with 400/2,8 FL (same lens shade same front lens diameter and same form of the front part)
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Preorder is about 17k Eu :o I think 500pf will stay forever on top of the quality/ price scale 8)
Where did you find that price?
I can’t find a “real” price so far, just speculations between 6K and 13K.
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As Chambeshi said this digitalcameraworld comment is headlining 16,000$
Hope thats not nearly true
I would find 6-10k the maximum they shoudl take- depending on the IQ it provides - we dont know nothing about that yet
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As Chambeshi said this digitalcameraworld comment is headlining 16,000$
Hope thats not nearly true
I would find 6-10k the maximum they shoudl take- depending on the IQ it provides - we dont know nothing about that yet
So just still wild guesses / speculations. :)
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Preorder prices are sometimes wildly inaccurate (and high). It seems someone just made the assumption the Nikon lens will cost about the same as the Canon lens of the same focal length.
However, there is strong inflation now, after the pandemic and now major war in Europe. Thus a high price can be assumed probably without too much error.
I would have expected about 10k€ price for the Nikon 800/6.3. For one, it is 1/3 stop slower than the Canon and PF has some quality drawbacks.
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Use of one or more FL elements will have a big influence on the price. Let's hope the PF element alone is sufficient to reduce the weight as well the length.
more photos here https://nikonrumors.com/2022/02/27/nikons-presentation-at-the-2022-cp-show-z9-cat-meow-custom-shutter-sound-and-hands-on-with-the-nikkor-z-800mm-f-6-3-vr-s-lens.aspx/
and this one suggests it's rather light
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Where did you find that price?
I can’t find a “real” price so far, just speculations between 6K and 13K.
My Apologies :-[
I checked it twice, It’s not the preorder of the upcoming S model, it’s a regular order of the F mount version...
Let’s wait, personally I expect a high price
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My Apologies :-[
I checked it twice, It’s not the preorder of the upcoming S model, it’s a regular order of the F mount version...
Let’s wait, personally I expect a high price
Now that explained why I was so confused as it remindet me on exactly the pricing of the great 800 mm f/5,6 FL lens.
BTW, you were not the only one the "clickbaiter" on digital camera world was exactly hitting the same range with his speculations
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoP0GixbtoU
Matt Irwin already got one...
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Here is it
https://youtu.be/VP5HdjCpf7A (https://youtu.be/VP5HdjCpf7A)
and also here
https://youtu.be/arHlIBR9GVg (https://youtu.be/arHlIBR9GVg)
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Another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obb7i2f_iwQ
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Second video from Matt Irwin with actual pictures and videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwGwiSkIiB0
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Very special lens, not so for portraits 50-70m away but it’s capable ;D
I think it will be the next Nikons golden standard for birding as 500pf is now :)
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https://nikonrumors.com/2022/03/28/nikon-nikkor-z-800mm-f-6-3-vr-pf-s-lens-updates-price-6k-weight-2-3-kg.aspx/
If this rumor is true then the lens will be very interesting, signinficantly cheaper than reported here
and with just 2,3 Kilogramms it would have the same weight as the 200-500/5,6 F-Mount lens
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Very special lens, not so for portraits 50-70m away but it’s capable ;D
I think it will be the next Nikons golden standard for birding as 500pf is now :)
Mmmm, tempting
I wonder what sort of price we'll be able to rent them for?
Heres the current option (note this is for 7 days, UK rental, I don't know how much accidental damage insurance would add to this)
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https://nikonrumors.com/2022/03/28/nikon-nikkor-z-800mm-f-6-3-vr-pf-s-lens-updates-price-6k-weight-2-3-kg.aspx/
If this rumor is true then the lens will be very interesting, significantly cheaper than reported here
and with just 2,3 Kilogramms it would have the same weight as the 200-500/5,6 F-Mount lens
That price is unlikely. If it had been an f/8 lens, then that price would make sense as an extrapolation of the prices for the 300/4 and 500/5.6. At f/6.3, though, it's going to have to be considerably more expensive.
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Now it is official.
https://www.nikon.com/news/2022/0406_lens_01.htm
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MTF-chart...
https://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/lens/z-mount/z_800mmf63_vr_s/spec.htm (https://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/lens/z-mount/z_800mmf63_vr_s/spec.htm)
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That price is unlikely. If it had been an f/8 lens, then that price would make sense as an extrapolation of the prices for the 300/4 and 500/5.6. At f/6.3, though, it's going to have to be considerably more expensive.
Egg on my face, again. The US price is $6,496.95. That's amazing. Maybe Nikon has developed new and cheaper manufacturing techniques for the PF element.
I'll make yet another risky prediction. Because the price is so low, this lens will be very hard to get for a long time. I can see the Z9 and the 800PF combination being in tremendous demand for wildlife photography, especially for those shooting smaller birds.
Personally, I'm very happy with my 500 PF, the capabilities of which I've just started to explore, so I won't be getting into the very long line for this new lens.
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Yes, but very nice egg!
Does the US price include taxes or must they be added to arrive at the final price?
Egg on my face, again. The US price is $6,496.95. That's amazing. Maybe Nikon has developed new and cheaper manufacturing techniques for the PF element.
I'll make yet another risky prediction. Because the price is so low, this lens will be very hard to get for a long time. I can see the Z9 and the 800PF combination being in tremendous demand for wildlife photography, especially for those shooting smaller birds.
Personally, I'm very happy with my 500 PF, the capabilities of which I've just started to explore, so I won't be getting into the very long line for this new lens.
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Now it is released finally. with 2,4 kg and 6300$/7300€ the rumors appeared to have been rather accurate. the 500PF was some 3500 Euro. THis is also "just" a PF lens (but with SR lens element and pretty fast). I see Nikon setting lower price signals on purpose, just like they did with the Z9.
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The 500 PF is also significantly less expensive than one would have expected a conventional 500/5.6 to cost at such high MTF levels. It seems the number of elements that are needed for optical correction is reduced by using a PF element and this leads to shorter length, lower weight, and lower price.
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The 500 PF is also significantly less expensive than one would have expected a conventional 500/5.6 to cost at such high MTF levels. It seems the number of elements that are needed for optical correction is reduced by using a PF element and this leads to shorter length, lower weight, and lower price.
Thats one important aspect. Strategical calculations in using this lens for gaining better market penetration in the mirrorless field might also be considered by Nikon
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Does the US price include taxes or must they be added to arrive at the final price?
Sales tax is extra. Tax rates vary by state and locality, averaging around 6-7% but with a large spread, and now apply to internet sales (based on the locality of the purchaser). Fortunately, if you purchase at B&H and you have the B&H "Payboo" card (yes, it's a strange name) then you get a rebate equal to the sales tax. B&H is big enough that they can afford to do this. I imagine they pay less per unit for many of their more popular cameras and lenses.
I'm tempted to get the 800P F myself but really I don't need it. I've used a 400/2.8 on a D500 and gotten good results, and my 500 PF will give me even better reach with far more convenience and flexibility. I can see the appeal, though, for wildlife photographers shooting small birds. If only there were a Z equivalent to the D500, it would pair up fantastically with the 800 PF for that purpose.
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This lens is indeed very tempting. And I agree that the circumstances will lead to high interest and longer waiting times (just as the Z9)
Regarding the D500 the best replacement so far is the Z9 switched to DX except when it comes to size and weight
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Often, when the ultimate file size isn't required, I put one of my Viltrox DX lenses on the Z9. These small and light-weight lenses on the beefy Z9 makes for superb handling. AF is lightening fast as well.
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Recently got my hand on a sample of the 800 mm f/6.3 PF. This made me realize that this lens does not display the focus distance, no distance scale there. It is the same with the new Z 400/2,8 TC which i also got my hands on. Strange as the shorter Z-line companions still do have this feature.
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Recently got my hand on a sample of the 800 mm f/6.3 PF.
What were your impressions of using the lens Millirehm?
(Or were you not able to attach it to a camera?)
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What were your impressions of using the lens Millirehm?
(Or were you not able to attach it to a camera?)
Well I had no opportunity to do a real field test- it was a presentation Nikon did at my dealers shop. So I had the opportunity to give it a short try there inside the shop and do some outdoor shots standing at the door. And yes I did attach it to my Z9.
I had a good impression regarding the IQ of the few shots I did and from the way the lens focuses with the Z9 - with the restriction that I would not say that my experience is sufficient for really robust results.
it feels more plastic-like and more "cheap" than my Nikon F- superteles, but that goes hand in hand with its light weight
to my surprise it was a bit longer than I expected (expected it longer than the 200-500 but not that long), so it wont fit into my Lowe Flipside 400- would have to take the Flipside 500 instead.
The only downside I have detected so far is, that it lacks displaying a distance scale -as i already mentioned (it shares this "feature" with the top-expensive 400/2,8 TC