NikonGear'23

Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: Roland Vink on August 31, 2021, 05:35:36

Title: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Roland Vink on August 31, 2021, 05:35:36
Hello all, I have had my D600 since mid 2013. The frame counter recently rolled over from 9999 to 0001 for the first time. The shutter is rated for at least 15x that and the camera is in good shape but it got me wondering if I should start thinking about a replacement.

As far as I know the sensor of the D600 is the same as the D610, with minor improvements going into the D750, Z6, Z6II and D780. The new generations have higher ISO limits. Is there a noticeable improvement in the image quality, especially at low-medium ISO?

I mostly use AI lenses, the D600 viewfinder is not the best for manual focusing and I know the mirrorless cameras have better focusing aids which should help with focusing. IBIS would also be welcome. Lack of aperture information in EXIF data with manual lenses would be a disadvantage.

I like the long battery life of DSLRs, but USB charging should make the shorter battery life of mirrorless cameras less painful.

The Z6 seems to be bit more compact, but the greater depth of the camera behind the sensor and the FTZ adapter would make the setup more bulky overall.

I'm not sure that I want to buy a new camera (or lenses) at this point, just mulling over possibilities. Thanks!
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: richardHaw on August 31, 2021, 05:39:48
the Z5 comes with discounts now :o :o :o
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on August 31, 2021, 07:05:30
With AI Nikkor lenses I think a DSLR might be the best. The very best is I think a Nikon D850. It has been on sale for about $2497.00 (USD) on occasion and may go on sale again this November. I bought on a $500.00 instant savings. I'm sure the viewfinder is much better than the D600 but I still have problems focusing my AI and AIS Nikkors under pressure. I might suggest looking into a D780 but if the D780 is at full price of $2297.00 (USD) it would be hard for me to recommend a D780 over a D850.

There are those who find the Z6 II and Z7 II excellent for manual focus lenses and others who don't. I have no experience with mirrorless cameras so I can't offer advice on these cameras with AI and AIS Nikkor lenses. I do think the new Z type FX cameras with two memory card slots are worth the extra price as one can get on with a medium fast SD type card where with the older Z type FX cameras you'll need a CFExpress type B memory card to start using the camera. You'd also probably also want a CFExpress card reader right away.

The choice between a DSLR and Mirrorless cameras seems to me to depend on use. Many feel a DSLR is better for sports, action and wildlife. I would like the option of shooting a digital mirrorless camera from waist level for candid photos of people. I've found Live View with the D850 useless for candid photos of people. Far too much shutter lag.

Use? Maybe look at a D750. I don't know if D780(s) are common used. I would skip over the D800/e and D810 to the D850.

My DSLR experience is a D2H (too little dynamic range), D300s, D800 and now D850. I've been considering various options and asking question but may end up having to buy a new laptop. I think I'd like a Nikon Z7 II but I've never touched one.

So maybe a used D750 or D850. I'd skip the D800/e and D810 to a D850 or see what Z6 II and Z7 II owners have to say about manual focus with AI and AIS Nikkors.

I hope something here helps.

Dave
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Erik Lund on August 31, 2021, 09:26:48
Currently the D850 is the camera of choice for enjoying F-mount lenses - Best viewfinder and flawless images!
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on August 31, 2021, 16:04:32
I will disagree that a DSLR is best for AI lenses. I have both the dF and Z6 and about 20 AI, AI-S and pre-AI lenses. The Z6 is worse for keeping track of what aperture things were shot at. And there is always room to improve the viewfinder, but you can mount almost any lens on it, it offers image stabilization, the viewfinder can zoom to help with fine focus (especially with wide angles or large aperture lenses), it can see in the dark, and offers things like focus peaking (I find this annoying for stills and never really use it, but some people like it).

The percentage of shots which are in focus and not blurred has increased with this camera as has speed of working as I can focus quickly and confidently.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: John Geerts on August 31, 2021, 16:18:17
I agree with Jack.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on August 31, 2021, 21:09:11
...the viewfinder can zoom to help with fine focus (especially with wide angles or large aperture lenses)...

This would not help me focus on a persons face where I'm trying to capture peak expression in many candid photo situations. With my FM2n and FE2 cameras I used a B or E screen so I could focus on any point on the focus screen. This was possible because these cameras offered a 0.86x viewfinder magnification. When the person's nearest eye to the lens was in focus I was ready to trip the shutter in anticipation of peak expression. This all happened as a reflex.

In situations where focus and recompose is acceptable a button might be assigned to finder magnification. I would want this to be momentary but from my reading of the Z7 II manual it's a toggle and therefore less than ideal. This might compete with buttons needed for other functions. For example I could not use the Fn2 button as I'd already be assigning that button to FV Lock (Flash Value). Perhaps I could use the Fn1 button (formerly Preview or DoF button). I'd have to try Fn1 assignment to finder magnification and see how it worked out.

Dave

Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on August 31, 2021, 22:51:35
Regarding DoF Preview with Nikon mirrorless digital cameras (Z7 II, Z6 II, Z fc, etc.): please don't laugh.  :-[

1) with AI and AIS Nikkors on a FTZ adapter there is no Auto Aperture function as found on most all Nikon cameras since the Nikon F to the Nikon D850. The aperture is fully manual and so a Depth of Fiend Preview button (AKA Preview Button) is superfluous.

1a) with AF and AF-D auto focus Nikkors again there is no Auto Aperture function and the aperture is set on the lens. Again a Depth of Fiend Preview button is superfluous.

Any comments on AF-S, G and AF-S, E lenses on an FTZ are welcomed. When I can I'll do a bit of research on these lenses on an FTZ adapter.

Dave

OK, I read Ken Rockwell's rundown of the Nikon FTZ adapter with various Nikkor lenses from 1959 to date. It seems if one is shooting at f/2.5 or faster the FTZ works OK but opening and closing the aperture manually to focus when shooting at slower apertures is far less than ideal...

https://kenrockwell.com/nikon/mirrorless/lenses/ftz.htm

Whether one likes shooting manual focus lenses on a Nikon mirrorless digital camera and an FTZ adapter is quite dependent on the type of photography one is doing.


Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: ianwatson on September 01, 2021, 00:33:34
I have found the electronic viewfinder of my Z6 easier to use for focusing than the S screen that I put in my D4, even without zooming.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on September 01, 2021, 06:40:44
Regarding DoF Preview with Nikon mirrorless digital cameras (Z7 II, Z6 II, Z fc, etc.): please don't laugh.  :-[

1) with AI and AIS Nikkors on a FTZ adapter there is no Auto Aperture function as found on most all Nikon cameras since the Nikon F to the Nikon D850. The aperture is fully manual and so a Depth of Fiend Preview button (AKA Preview Button) is superfluous.

1a) with AF and AF-D auto focus Nikkors again there is no Auto Aperture function and the aperture is set on the lens. Again a Depth of Fiend Preview button is superfluous.

Any comments on AF-S, G and AF-S, E lenses on an FTZ are welcomed. When I can I'll do a bit of research on these lenses on an FTZ adapter.

Dave

OK, I read Ken Rockwell's rundown of the Nikon FTZ adapter with various Nikkor lenses from 1959 to date. It seems if one is shooting at f/2.5 or faster the FTZ works OK but opening and closing the aperture manually to focus when shooting at slower apertures is far less than ideal...

https://kenrockwell.com/nikon/mirrorless/lenses/ftz.htm

Whether one likes shooting manual focus lenses on a Nikon mirrorless digital camera and an FTZ adapter is quite dependent on the type of photography one is doing.


What does that even mean? With Z6 set the aperture, look at the viewfinder, adjust focus as required, press the shutter button. Why would you have to change the aperture to focus? Ken Rockwell is a loon.

Dave, you should try the Z cameras instead of imagining reasons why you won’t like them. Sure it takes a week or two to get used to them, but I’ve been taking photographs with Nikons for 40 years and it is my favorite so far.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Snoogly on September 01, 2021, 07:01:09
I have found the electronic viewfinder of my Z6 easier to use for focusing than the S screen that I put in my D4, even without zooming.

Don’t tell me that! I have an S screen now waiting to go in my D4s … ;-)
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: MEPER on September 01, 2021, 09:39:12
On my Z50 I miss a button that instant zooms in so precise manual focus can be achieved and after release of the button it is back again to normal view. 
It could also be the press on the trigger button that switches back to normal view. Think Nikon 1 (J4, J5) works like this.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Snoogly on September 01, 2021, 10:35:53
On my Z50 I miss a button that instant zooms in so precise manual focus can be achieved and after release of the button it is back again to normal view. 
It could also be the press on the trigger button that switches back to normal view. Think Nikon 1 (J4, J5) works like this.

Can’t you configure one of the front buttons to do that? On the Z6ii it is easy to 100% zoom in and out again using the function button.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Birna Rørslett on September 01, 2021, 10:38:50
In its factory state, the FTZ keep the viewing aperture set to f/5.6 *if* the lens is a Nikkor or equivalent design with an automatic aperture coupling. Meaning all Nikkors since '59. When the release button is pressed the lens either opens or closes to the actual shooting aperture. What DPreview writes is nonsense.

However, *if* you wish to do evaluation of the scene at apertures faster than f/5.6 *prior* to taking the picture, the easy approach is modifying the FTZ by pushing in and locking the little sensor tab on its left side (seen from front) that signals the aperture ring is moved all the way to the smallest aperture on the lens. A small piece of a toothpick or matchstick in combination with a drop of epoxy glue fixes this issue immediately. Now, you can see what the lens sees all the way up to the maximum opening. However, once the lens aperture is moved beyond f/5.6, that setting sticks unless aperture again goes bigger.

The modification does not change the behaviour of 'G' or 'E' lenses - they work as before , only AI/AIS or AI'd lenses are influenced. Depth of field preview will work at apertures smaller than f/5.6. Probably with larger as well, but as all my FTZ units are modified, I cannot test this.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: MEPER on September 01, 2021, 11:28:12
Can’t you configure one of the front buttons to do that? On the Z6ii it is easy to 100% zoom in and out again using the function button.

I just checked but that function is not among what I can select for f1 and f2 on the Z50. Would be useful.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Luc on September 01, 2021, 12:20:25
I just checked but that function is not among what I can select for f1 and f2 on the Z50. Would be useful.
According to the Z50 manual it's possible (Zoom on/off option). See the info in this link https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z50/en/09_menu_guide_05_f02.html (https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z50/en/09_menu_guide_05_f02.html)
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: MEPER on September 01, 2021, 12:47:30
According to the Z50 manual it's possible (Zoom on/off option). See the info in this link https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z50/en/09_menu_guide_05_f02.html (https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z50/en/09_menu_guide_05_f02.html)

Ok, then I just have to find out how to actual select "Zoom on/off" in the f1 or f2 option menu. Seems I have to do something to have more options to select from.
Now I only see the standard options like WB, AF, M/A etc.......
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Luc on September 01, 2021, 13:07:13
Just read the info in the link I posted. It describes in detail how to assign functions like zoom on/off to buttons on the Z50.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: gabrielpix on September 01, 2021, 13:15:22
As far as I know the sensor of the D600 is the same as the D610, with minor improvements going into the D750, Z6, Z6II and D780. The new generations have higher ISO limits. Is there a noticeable improvement in the image quality, especially at low-medium ISO?

I mostly use AI lenses, the D600 viewfinder is not the best for manual focusing and I know the mirrorless cameras have better focusing aids which should help with focusing. IBIS would also be welcome. Lack of aperture information in EXIF data with manual lenses would be a disadvantage.

I like the long battery life of DSLRs, but USB charging should make the shorter battery life of mirrorless cameras less painful.

I  was in the same situation as you. Bought the D600 on the day of its release, used and loved it. I use Ai and AiS lenses a lot, and have many of them, but manual focusing was difficult with some of them. I was often off by just a little (which in my type of phtotography may sometimes be ok, but at times the resulting image became sort of pointless and I just deleted it).

Then a little used D750 came my way and I used it for next to a year. One difference was very noticeable: the white dot for accurate focus was indeed accurate, and snappy. I used it with a DK-17M finder loupe on an adapter (and, mostly by luck, it never slid off or was lost). My keeper rate was much improved, and the image quality was noticeably better at higher ISO (must confess that I am both lazy and busy and shoot jpegs most of the time but the difference at ISOs above 6400 was remarkable. The images also seemed to hold slightly more detail. I believe these differences were mostly down to the in-camera processing, going from Expeed3 to 4)
But there were two things I was not very fond of: The shutter was clonky. And the jpegs were too contrasty and a bit difficult to tune back to normal.

What then happened was a sort of revelation. I picked up a very well used D810. Now, this camera is a beauty. The DK-17M sits snugly in place. The autofocus accuracy is perfect (just like the D750), and with a wider spread of focus points. I can focus quickly on the screen itself but having learnt to rely on the white dot I now use it to finely adjust somewhat difficult lenses like the 24/2,0 or 50/1,2. Even though I most often use these stopped down one stop, I can get accurate focus wide open.
Along with the D810 I was thrilled that it came with an unused adapted K3 screen. But the focus accuracy with the normal screen + white dot was so good that I never even bothered to try to install it.

Furthermore, one of the best things about the D810 - it is silent. I shoot in Q mode, and nobody notices. It is almost stealthy.

And the image quality with old lenses... there seems to be something to it. I don't know if it has anything to do with sensor stack or what it might be, but I never had the kind of image quality from my old lenses that I get now. I may be fooling myself, but the difference seems greater than what you might expect as a result of the slightly higher resolution and lack of anti-aliasing filter. Also despite the higher resolution, I have not had to increase shutter speeds. This body is heavier, the grip is good, it feels very stable and with little vibration. Also, it has the same Expeed 4 version as the D750 although high ISO is not as impressive as the D750.

The Df? I was not tempted for a number of reasons and never tried it. But I would guess that, because it shares the AF sensor unit of the D600, it might not have the white dot accuracy of the D810.

/Gabriel Heyman
   
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: MEPER on September 01, 2021, 17:25:13
Just read the info in the link I posted. It describes in detail how to assign functions like zoom on/off to buttons on the Z50.

I see.....all the other options showed up when one of the "pre-defined" options is selected. A bit confusing.......but now f1 is a "zoom-toggle". Very useful.....
I will also vote for a Z-body for manual lenses.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Luc on September 01, 2021, 17:31:14
Glad you were able to make it work. Useful indeed.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 02, 2021, 06:57:41
Can someone rundown the function of AF-D Nikkor lenses on a Z7/Z7 II and FTZ adapter. Does auto aperture work? Probably no. DoF preview? etc.

Dave
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Birna Rørslett on September 02, 2021, 13:10:44
Auto aperture works. No difference there to any other Nikkor with AI, AIS etc. capability. If you have set up a preview function on the Z camera, this will also work through the FTZ.

The AF/AFD lenses require screwdriver linkage to the camera body for their AF to function.  This is not provided by the FTZ. Thus the Z system shares the limitiation of the very newest D3/5xxx cameras which won't do AF with these lenses, if memory serves.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: MEPER on September 02, 2021, 15:02:09
What is nice using AF/AFD lenses on Z-body is that the red AF-focus point (square) turns green when focus is achieved by focus the lens manually.
Apart from AF-function it is nice that the lens has a chip when used on a Z-body (via FTZ adapter).
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Zang on September 02, 2021, 15:36:58
...Is there a noticeable improvement in the image quality, especially at low-medium ISO?

I believe that after D600, even though the image quality improvement is noticeable in testing, it will not impress you in your day to day use. I think ergonomics and ease of manual focusing may play a bigger role. I did not believe in the advantage of manual focusing using EVF until I bought Sony Nex6 for cheap. After a few years, I am still using Nex6 almost everyday. If you do not have a mirroless camera yet, why not consider a cheap one for now to play around with? I paid $50 Canadian dollars for my Nex6 in a good deal but I think it still can be found not much more expensive than that. Also, many other options are on the table.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: MEPER on September 02, 2021, 15:51:06
In the old "SLR-days" the rangefinders was known to give shaper handhold results caused by short trigger delay and no "mirror flip up".
I guess a digital rangefinder like the Z-bodies still has that advantage over the digital SLRs (if used the traditional way (not with "live view"))?
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Zang on September 02, 2021, 16:13:59
In the old "SLR-days" the rangefinders was known to give shaper handhold results caused by short trigger delay and no "mirror flip up".
I guess a digital rangefinder like the Z-bodies still has that advantage over the digital SLRs (if used the traditional way (not with "live view"))?

I ruin my shots by misfocusing more than the camera movements :) but yes, I found a combination of a heavy lens and a light mirroless camera more stable than otherwise. Weight balance is a different issue.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: PeterN on September 02, 2021, 18:22:11
If you ask me what I would do: I would keep the D600 and add a Z-camera to the collection. You will then have the best of both worlds. When I bought the Z6, I sold the D750 and I still regret that decision. The D750 combined especially very well with the 58mm 1.4G. I preferred the D750 over the D810 for event photography.

I switched from Z6 to Z7 and don't regret that decision at all. The abundance of MPs allows me to crop and to downsample when I want to reduce noise. The output is noticeably sharper too (well, at least when I compared the cameras I owned). The Z7 is a pleasure to use with manual lenses, such as the 105mm 2.5. Sean Reid of Reidreviews concluded that the Z7 is the third best option for using Leica rangefinder lenses. Leica M is 1st and Leica SL 2nd. He also tested the Z7 with Nikon lenses (Q 200mm f4, 50mm 1.8 AIS, 28mm 2.8 AIS, 28mm 3.5 AI)
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 02, 2021, 20:59:29
Auto aperture works. No difference there to any other Nikkor with AI, AIS etc. capability.

I'm confused: By "Auto Aperture" I'm referring to the feature of the original F-Bayonet Nikkors such as my NIKKOR-S Auto 1:1.4 f=50mm where the lens aperture is held open until the shutter is tripped and then closes just before the exposure. From 1959 to about 1977 most Auto Aperture Nikkor lenses carried the word "Auto" on the ring around the front element.  Just in case I'm not referring to the AA mode, a feature of Nikon Speedlights and I'm not referring to AI (Auto Indexing).

My understanding from multiple sites is the "Auto Aperture" feature of non-AI, AI and AIS Nikkors without a CPU modification do not feature Auto Aperture when mounted on the Nikon FTZ adapter.

Understanding this would be so much easier if there were a brick and mortar camera store in reasonable driving distance where I could hold a camera, FTZ adapter and mount AI or AIS lens and see how it performed.

Dave

There used to be an illustration at Photography in Malaysia showing the F-bayonet, body and lens labeling the parts with the correct or official names. If anyone knows where this can be found at Photography in Malaysia or another site I'd very much like link. I've been searching to no avail.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 02, 2021, 21:13:50
What is nice using AF/AFD lenses on Z-body is that the red AF-focus point (square) turns green when focus is achieved by focus the lens manually.
Apart from AF-function it is nice that the lens has a chip when used on a Z-body (via FTZ adapter).

Does the AF-Focus point turn green with AF (pre AF-D) screwdriver lenses? I've read about this feature and how it works with AF-D lenses but not with AF (non-AF-D) lenses. I've also read that the >o< focus indicators do not work with AF Nikkors but do with AF-D Nikkors. Again, not having access to the various cameras, FTZ adapter and trying various AI, AIS, AF and AF-D makes understanding how these all interact in the real world very difficult.

Dave
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: MEPER on September 02, 2021, 22:30:13
Does the AF-Focus point turn green with AF (pre AF-D) screwdriver lenses? I've read about this feature and how it works with AF-D lenses but not with AF (non-AF-D) lenses. I've also read that the >o< focus indicators do not work with AF Nikkors but do with AF-D Nikkors. Again, not having access to the various cameras, FTZ adapter and trying various AI, AIS, AF and AF-D makes understanding how these all interact in the real world very difficult.

Dave

I have only tried with an AF 85/1.4D and was surprised that the focus point indicator turned green when focus was achieved.
This makes it much easier to use. I have an AF 300/2.8 EDIF .....I assume "non D"....but have not tried it. I hope it will work...... or I will be very disappointed!
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Bent Hjarbo on September 02, 2021, 22:52:43
Just did some testing on my Z6.
AF-D gives focus indication, you get a white dot, when in focus.
AF does not give any indication with the white dot, only zebras.
The preview is maybe some different from old DSLRs, the lens is stopped down to f5.6, if you dial some smaller than that, but will take picture at set f value. Using a button to do preview it will stop down, as in old days. AF and AF-D.
Using a dumb adapter will give same result as with Ai and AiS lenses, as no electrical connection exists.
Hope this helps.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: MEPER on September 02, 2021, 23:30:51
Yes, white dot but also red to green shift when focus point is in focus. It is possible to move the focus point to where focus is wanted and turn focus ring until the red square turns green (like it does when a lens auto focus). It requires that an AF mode is selected where the user has full control of the focus point. It is called single AF focus area?    .....where you can move around with a single AF-point using the cursor?
Maybe not that many uses that mode.......
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 03, 2021, 03:40:04
Thanks for the feedback!

Dave
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: ianwatson on September 03, 2021, 15:47:22

My understanding from multiple sites is the "Auto Aperture" feature of non-AI, AI and AIS Nikkors without a CPU modification do not feature Auto Aperture when mounted on the Nikon FTZ adapter.


You are correct, Dave. My AI lenses on the FTZ stay at the aperture set on the ring. The electronic viewfinder's brightness does not care and focusing is not as problematic as you might expect.

Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on September 03, 2021, 18:31:40
You are correct, Dave. My AI lenses on the FTZ stay at the aperture set on the ring. The electronic viewfinder's brightness does not care and focusing is not as problematic as you might expect.

I share Ian's experience. I don't have any chipped AI lenses so my lenses stay just as you left them.
Working with AI lenses on the Z6 I find it easiest to shoot in manual mode with Autoiso. This allows best of both shutter priority and aperture priority. I'm usually fine with ISO up to about 10-12K depending on subject so there is a lot of latitude for quickly changing conditions without having to touch a dial.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 03, 2021, 21:47:38
Ian and jack: Thank you!
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Roland Vink on September 09, 2021, 01:20:10
Thank you for your comments, some interesting comments here.

I did not consider the D810 or D850, they are significantly heavier than my D600 and slightly bigger too. I prefer to use a smaller, lighter camera, although there is no doubt the D8xx cameras are outstanding.

The D750 is an interesting option I had not considered. It is the same size and even marginally lighter than the D600. The tilt out screen would be useful, and newer EXPEED processor should give improved high ISO performance. Although I don't have many AF lenses the wider spread of AF points would be useful even for manual focusing. The D780 is rather expensive right now but could also be an option.

The Z6 is probably my first option among the mirrorless cameras. Maybe the Z5 would be better since it accepts SD cards, but the EVF is lower resolution and the it does not have a BSI sensor so high-ISO performance is not as good (not that I shoot at high ISO often, but having more head-room would be useful).

On the other hand, another option would be to expand my m4/3 kit ... :o :)
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 09, 2021, 03:40:43
The Z6 is probably my first option among the mirrorless cameras.

The Nikon Z6 has only one memory card slot and it accepts only a QXD or CFExpress Type B card. If you don't have one of these factor in $100.00 (USD) or more into your startup cost for the Z6. You will also need a card reader for QXD and CFExpress cards so add another $100.00 to your start up cost. If you forgo a QXD or CFExpress to start with and use your current SDXC cards you can put that $200.00 towards the price of a Nikon Z6 II. This was pointed out to me in anther discussion. I think this is a valid consideration.

If you use existing SDXC cards and readers the Nikon Z6 II still cost only $200.00 (USD) more than a Z6 both B&H Photo prices without a FTZ adapter. The FTZ adapter as a stand alone costs $250.00 for either.

Dave
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Hugh_3170 on September 09, 2021, 07:27:48
Roland, in Melbourne a 64GB Sandisk CF-Express card is around $A300. a Sandisk reader $A100, and a Sony CF-Express/XQD reader $A200.  I am guessing these prices plus 5% for you in NZ?

I would therefore also opt for the Z6-II as being a better value proposition when the card and reader costs are factored in. 

I have also heard some grumbles about certain of the Sandisk readers being flaky.  YMMV.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Gone on September 09, 2021, 09:30:16
You may pay more for XQD or CFE card but the read /write speeds are significantly faster - up to 80 times faster than an SD card. With large RAW files this is a major consideration!
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Bill De Jager on September 09, 2021, 21:11:04
The D750 has much better ergonomics than the D600/610.  It handles very nicely.  The design was made similar to the D7100, and to me using feels very much like using my D7200.  I've been very happy with it overall, with my only two gripes being the maximum shutter speed of 1/4000 and the lack of electronic first curtain shutter.  The D780 fixes those issues and adds some other pluses, at the cost of a far higher price at present.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 10, 2021, 03:57:00
You may pay more for XQD or CFE card but the read /write speeds are significantly faster - up to 80 times faster than an SD card. With large RAW files this is a major consideration!

I'd rather get the camera with the most, first then add a CFExpress B and card reader later. I'm making do with a D850 and a 64GB, 170 MB/s SDXC card. I would not have bought a lessor camera and faster memory cards and a fast reader. I'll probably buy a Z7 II or Z6 II before buying a CFExpress card and reader.

The Z6 II has Dual EXPEED 6 Image Processors compared to the Z6 having only one EXPEED 6 Image Processors. That's a lot more processing power for the Z6 II.

Dave
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on September 10, 2021, 21:31:14
Roland, in Melbourne a 64GB Sandisk CF-Express card is around $A300. a Sandisk reader $A100, and a Sony CF-Express/XQD reader $A200.  I am guessing these prices plus 5% for you in NZ?

I would therefore also opt for the Z6-II as being a better value proposition when the card and reader costs are factored in. 

I have also heard some grumbles about certain of the Sandisk readers being flaky.  YMMV.

My cheap Sony XQD reader was around $30 US. It has been working fine since 2018.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 11, 2021, 07:13:12
My cheap Sony XQD reader was around $30 US. It has been working fine since 2018.

Will it read CFExpress or is there an updated model. What about the speed? Does it fulfill the promise or does the economical price bring a speed penalty?

Dave
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Hugh_3170 on September 11, 2021, 08:35:31
Mine is also a Sony reader - Model MRW-E90 - and also from 2018 and it set me back around $A90 (about $US70 as I write). 

It is a dual XQD and SDXC-II reader and works flawlessly with both my XQD and SDXC cards.  However it is no longer available here and so far there are no firmware updates for it.  I cannot imagine that XQD will be around for ever now that CF-Express is here, so if/when I buy into CF-Express I am up for a new reader.

Whilst the speeds of XQD and CF-Express cards are not in doubt, unless you are regularly overflowing the cameras buffer memory with long stills sequences or special video requirements, the less expensive SDXC cards will work fine - accepting of course that they are also likely to be slower to unload onto ones computer.


My cheap Sony XQD reader was around $30 US. It has been working fine since 2018.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 11, 2021, 10:07:44
That a CFExpress card and reader is superior to an SDXC card and reader is not the point. The point is the Nikon Z6 II has major improvements a over the Nikon Z6. The Nikon Z6 II has two EXPEED 6 image processors while the Nikon Z6 has only one. If you start with a Z6 II and a SDXC card and reader you already have you can add a CFExpress memory card and reader later. You can not add a second EXPEED 6 processor to a Nikon Z6.

The two EXPEED 6 image processors in the Nikon Z6 II allow many significant improvements to the Z6 II over the Z6. A $400.00 instant rebate off the Nikon Z6 is not a deep enough discount to motivate me to buy the Z6 even if the Z6 had two memory slots and could accept both a CFExpress and SDXC memory card.

Dave

CFExpress B v. XQD? I would not buy XQD at this time even if there were deep discounts. XQD is going to die out and probably sooner than later.

Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Hugh_3170 on September 11, 2021, 12:43:39
The rebates are also pretty good for the Z6II and z7II where I am, so at this point of time I would not go for the earlier models either.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Jack Dahlgren on September 13, 2021, 21:43:06
Will it read CFExpress or is there an updated model. What about the speed? Does it fulfill the promise or does the economical price bring a speed penalty?

Dave

Don’t know about CFExpress or updated models. It is fast enough that I’ve never thought I need to get anything faster.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Gone on September 13, 2021, 23:33:56
Picking up on another thread about dynamic range - the D600 matches (and even exceeds at low ISO) the latest cameras ...
https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D600,Nikon%20Z%2050,Nikon%20Z%206,Nikon%20Z%207,Nikon%20Z%207II
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: mxbianco on September 29, 2021, 13:34:19
Thank you for your comments, some interesting comments here.

I did not consider the D810 or D850, they are significantly heavier than my D600 and slightly bigger too. I prefer to use a smaller, lighter camera, although there is no doubt the D8xx cameras are outstanding.

The D750 is an interesting option I had not considered. It is the same size and even marginally lighter than the D600. The tilt out screen would be useful, and newer EXPEED processor should give improved high ISO performance. Although I don't have many AF lenses the wider spread of AF points would be useful even for manual focusing. The D780 is rather expensive right now but could also be an option.

The Z6 is probably my first option among the mirrorless cameras. Maybe the Z5 would be better since it accepts SD cards, but the EVF is lower resolution and the it does not have a BSI sensor so high-ISO performance is not as good (not that I shoot at high ISO often, but having more head-room would be useful).
...

Hi Roland!

Speaking of actuations, your D600 is still in its prime... My own D600, bought when the D600 came out, has reached 59000 actuations and it's still alive and kicking! But that's nothing compared to other cameras I own, just mentioning the ones with higher actuations:
D300: 78K actuations
D2H: 125K actuations
DF: 178K actuations
D3: 365K actuations
D2X: 692K actuations
and then D810 36K actuations, Z7 18K actuations, D500 10K actuations, Z6 5K actuations, ...

So your decision to maybe change your current camera should not be influenced by actuation numbers... that would be the last issue!

But let's go back to possible cameras replacing your D600. I will be comparing only what I have or have used

As an example, let's compare D70 vs D600 vs D810.

D70: very light, very limited at high ISO, difficult to use unchipped MF lenses (no non-CPU menu)
D600: midweight, better at higher ISO, has non-CPU lens menu
D810: heavier (but rock steady al low shutter speeds), even better at higher ISO, has non-CPU lens menu
[I'll assume that the D850 has improvements to nthe D810 both in High-ISO and resolution. Of course it weighs more, it's a small fee to pay!]

Let's kick in the Z6 and Z7

The Z6 (and Z6 II) has the same resolution as the D600 (24MP), it weighs 675 grams vs 850 grams of the D600
The FTZ adapter's weight is not listed in your table, so I did measure my own FTZ: 136 grams, (without caps)
Z6 (and Z7) + FTZ: 811 grams, you save 39 grams
for completeness, Z6II (and Z7 II): 707+136=841 grams, you save 9 grams

So, weight is a non-issue for Z6/Z7 (or the II versions) vs the D600

Let's compare high ISO, vibration reduction, and viewfinder
high ISO: the Z6 is a clear winner
viewfinder: if you compare side-by side a Z6 and a D600 in night conditions, the Z6 (and Z7) allows you to actually see the scene, while you have to guess the framing on the D600 (it's always too DARK to tell). This is because of the light amplification of the EVF (very useful!)
viewfinder zoom: no such thing on the D600, very useful and practical on Z6/Z7: you can map the zoom-in/zoom-out function to a Fn button. I find myself using my MF lenses a lot more now that my eyesight is not-so-good and I can zoom in (even on screwdriver lenses such as DC-105 which can be used only in MF). Additionally: if you clip in a DX lens, you will have the full image in the EVF, not a small portion of the image surrounded by a red line
Vibration reduction: on Z6/Z7 you have in-camera vibration reduction even for MF 1959 lenses, no such thing on the D600. On a dedicated Z lens, you have even more sophisticated VR, not even dreamt of on the D600...

One problem with D850, Z7 and Z7II is image size, it will slow down your workflow. On the practical level, you don't need a 47MP sensor all the time...

My opinion? Go for a Z6 or a Z6II and be happy!

Ciao from Massimo
 


Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Frank Fremerey on September 29, 2021, 20:59:40
Hello all, I have had my D600 since mid 2013. The frame counter recently rolled over from 9999 to 0001 for the first time. The shutter is rated for at least 15x that and the camera is in good shape but it got me wondering if I should start thinking about a replacement.

As far as I know the sensor of the D600 is the same as the D610, with minor improvements going into the D750, Z6, Z6II and D780. The new generations have higher ISO limits. Is there a noticeable improvement in the image quality, especially at low-medium ISO?

I mostly use AI lenses, the D600 viewfinder is not the best for manual focusing and I know the mirrorless cameras have better focusing aids which should help with focusing. IBIS would also be welcome. Lack of aperture information in EXIF data with manual lenses would be a disadvantage.

I like the long battery life of DSLRs, but USB charging should make the shorter battery life of mirrorless cameras less painful.

The Z6 seems to be bit more compact, but the greater depth of the camera behind the sensor and the FTZ adapter would make the setup more bulky overall.

I'm not sure that I want to buy a new camera (or lenses) at this point, just mulling over possibilities. Thanks!

The Z6 is a mayor upgrade from the D600.

I used my D600 up to 78.000 Clicks and then sold her. Reliability and reproducability was not her strength.

Plus: the native Z lenses are gorgeous. The 1.2/50S is the best lens I own and I do have the 2/200VR and the 1.4/105E
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Bern on September 30, 2021, 09:43:18
I also have a D600 but only for a few years. And also thinking about moving to the Nikon Z system. However, I can not afford the Z6. Any thoughts on the Z5?

Thanks
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Birna Rørslett on September 30, 2021, 10:16:28
Z5 has a lot of the goodies of the Z6/7 cameras. Its video features are not up to those of the others, though. And it can use SD cards which might save you some additional pennies.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Hugh_3170 on September 30, 2021, 11:58:08
Roland, since your D600 is relatively youthful yet no longer super valuable, why not "run it into the ground"?  What have you got to lose?

The Z6 is a nice camera - I like mine a lot, but the XQD and CF-Express cards are too dammed expensive; plus they need special readers.  If you can, why not wait for the prices of SD friendly Z6/7 Mk IIs to fall in price?
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Zang on September 30, 2021, 13:47:01
Z5 has a lot of the goodies of the Z6/7 cameras. Its video features are not up to those of the others, though. And it can use SD cards which might save you some additional pennies.

I heard complains about low light EVF issue. As you have all Z models, how do you compare Z5 EVF with the ones from the other models?
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on September 30, 2021, 21:03:29
Roland, since your D600 is relatively youthful yet no longer super valuable, why not "run it into the ground"?  What have you got to lose?

The Z6 is a nice camera - I like mine a lot, but the XQD and CF-Express cards are too dammed expensive; plus they need special readers.  If you can, why not wait for the prices of SD friendly Z6/7 Mk IIs to fall in price?

Roland,

I like having a backup. Considering this and to add to Hugh's response...

I would keep the D600 and watch for discounts on the Z6 II and Z7 II. Perhaps there will be discounts for Back Thursday? ...or maybe the Z6 II and Z7 II are to young or early in their product cycle? I'd watch prices.

Again I'd skip the Z6 or Z7 and go for the Z6 II or Z7II because the foot in the door with the ability to use a fast SDXC card. A Nikon Z6 II on a Black Thursday or other discount might be your sweet spot.

Dave
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: mxbianco on October 01, 2021, 07:46:26
Consider also the fact that Z5, Z6, Z7, Z6II and Z7II are battery-wise (*) and charger-wise compatible with the D600. In this sense having a backup body with the same battery and charger is a big PLUS.

Ciao from Massimo

(*) some early EN-EL15 batteries cannot be used on the newer models (eventually, a notice is displayed on the LCD), but the newer batteries are all backwards compatible with the D600.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Hugh_3170 on October 01, 2021, 09:38:35
Yes, a very good point re battery compatibility!

Consider also the fact that Z5, Z6, Z7, Z6II and Z7II are battery-wise (*) and charger-wise compatible with the D600. In this sense having a backup body with the same battery and charger is a big PLUS.

Ciao from Massimo

(*) some early EN-EL15 batteries cannot be used on the newer models (eventually, a notice is displayed on the LCD), but the newer batteries are all backwards compatible with the D600.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Zang on October 01, 2021, 15:14:39
Consider also the fact that Z5, Z6, Z7, Z6II and Z7II are battery-wise (*) and charger-wise compatible with the D600. In this sense having a backup body with the same battery and charger is a big PLUS.

Ciao from Massimo

(*) some early EN-EL15 batteries cannot be used on the newer models (eventually, a notice is displayed on the LCD), but the newer batteries are all backwards compatible with the D600.

Considering the great reliability of modern cameras, I am curious how many of you make use of the backups?
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: mxbianco on October 01, 2021, 16:33:05
Considering the great reliability of modern cameras, I am curious how many of you make use of the backups?

Even the most reliable camera can go awry, given the appropriate environmental conditions...

I don't use a backup when I go out for a stroll in my hometown, but I took with me seven cameras in my recent July-August vacations. 4 of them had EN-EL15s (Z6, Z7, D500, 1V1), 1 had EN-EL14 (Df), 1 had EN-EL24 (1V3), and 1 had EN-EL20 (1AW1). I didn't travel by plane (I would have carried less). I only took 3 chargers with me, a modified one allows me to recharge both the EN-EL20 and EN-EL24.

Ciao from Massimo
 
 
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Hugh_3170 on October 01, 2021, 18:10:26
I once had a dreadful fall that instantly "killed" my 28-300mm lens, although the D700 camera survived.  I have at least two cameras when I travel by plane and more if I travel by car.

Accidents do happen, although I have been relatively lucky over the years.


Even the most reliable camera can go awry, given the appropriate environmental conditions...

...........................................................
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Dogman on October 01, 2021, 18:17:54
When I was working as a press photographer (back when film was king and digital was an exam the doctor gave your), I killed a couple of Nikons and completely wore out at least three Nikkor lenses.  I'm a believer in redundancy.  I'm no longer a working photographer but I have about a dozen Nikon DSLRs and at least a half dozen Fuji X-Pro bodies today.  Mainly, I just buy newer stuff and keep the older stuff and use it all in rotation.
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: David H. Hartman on October 01, 2021, 19:38:05
Considering the great reliability of modern cameras, I am curious how many of you make use of the backups?

For anyone who shoots professionally no matter how modest their customer is a backup is required. This is particularly true of any event where you have only one chance. This is very true where there is great expense in bringing together the subject and props or rental of a location. A backup is an imperative.

On probably my first paying gig I brought a new Nikon F2 with a standard prism. I had owned and used the camera for a few weeks and experienced no problems. Probably as a manufacturing error the base plate of the camera was depressed where it was stamped to accept the O/C key. There were no problems using the camera with Kodak film cassettes. I loaded this camera with Ilford HP-5. The Ilford cassette was taller than a Kodak cassette. Film advance was extremely stiff and I was afraid of damaging the film advance mechanism. I was green. I had no backup. I owned a Nikon F as a second camera but did not bring it on this shoot.

This was a PR gig for a modest customer. The only film I had with me was HP-5 and the cassettes all fit very tight. I took a cassette and scraped the plastic end of the cassette on the cement curb. I heard my editor say to someone, "Does he know what he is doing?" I deburred the plastic lower end of the cassette with a key. I reloaded my F2 and it performed perfectly. My customer was very pleased with my work and I continued to work for this customer for about 15 years. If I had failed this shoot I would have lost not only this customer but several other associated customers.

I took this Nikon F2 to ACS (Authorized Camera Service) in Woodland Hills, CA and they tested with a Kodak cassette and said nothing was wrong. I then took it to Mel Pierce Camera and they tested it with a well worn Kodak cassette and they said it was fine. Having had two official Nikon repair shops deny that there was a problem I removed the base plate myself. I placed the base plate on a kitchen towel on a hard surface. I used a long socket for auto repair placing the flat end on inside of the base plate. I used a large screw driver handle as a mallet and tapped the base plate at the O/C key opening. I check the base plate each time with a drafting triangle. When the base plate was perfectly flat I reassembled the camera. This Nikon F2 never cause any problems again for as long as I owned it.

I had a Pentax Digital Spotmeter fail on a PR shoot for a hospital. It had a cold solder joint that I later repaired. I was carrying a Minolta Flash Meter III as a backup. I recently had a Wattson EN-EL15 battery fail. It came "free" with my D800. One day it worked fine. The next it did not. Always carry spare batteries.

Many professional photographers refuse to use a digital camera that does not have two memory card slots and they have the camera save duplicate images to each memory card. I've never had a memory card failure but others have. I would not use a digital camera on a paying gig or any important event without a second memory card slot. It's like going out into the outback without a spare tire. In the day better wedding photographers would carried not only a second body but also a backup of each lens as the lenses had in lens shutters that could fail. You take every reasonable precaution so as not to fail a customer or any non-paying important shoot.

That's my 2 cents and a personal story about carrying backups on any paying or otherwise important photo shoot.

Dave
Title: Re: D600 Upgrade?
Post by: Zang on October 01, 2021, 20:53:27
Hey, some great stories here. Thank you for sharing...

Yeah, it makes sense to secure your business when you get paid or make sure you have a backup when working in some extreme environments. However, I (almost) never do either of those and I hate lugging around heavy equipment. Lately, I started carrying two bodies with two primes just for quick focal length change.