NikonGear'23
Gear Talk => Camera Talk => Topic started by: chambeshi on June 14, 2021, 12:10:02
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Launch end of June apparently. Unfortunate if it is DX but cheaper sensor will price this entry Zed at the opposite end of range to the Df. So a repackaged Z50 in key respects
https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/retro-to-the-future.html
https://nikonrumors.com/2021/06/13/nikon-zfc-retro-styled-aps-c-mirrorless-z-mount-camera-rumored-to-be-announced-on-june-28-new-details.aspx/#more-158087
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:o :o :o :o :o
And the rewind knob? Seems a little wierd.
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I have really a problem with a DX Z retro camera as it doesn’t make sense with regard to all the old Nikkors as it did with the Df.
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:o :o :o :o :o
And the rewind knob? Seems a little wierd.
The site says the photos are mock-ups.
I have really a problem with a DX Z retro camera as it doesn%u2019t make sense with regard to all the old Nikkors as it did with the Df.
The camera would make more sense if it had IBIS to stabilize those old lenses. Yes, there would be a problem at the wide end because of the image circle being severely cropped, though I suppose you could use an old 18mm prime to get a moderate wide angle. The 15mm lenses would give an even wider angle of view but now we're looking at a much heavier and bulkier combo as well as filter difficulties.
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Plenty of small & wide lenses to pick from if one uses the appropriate adapter on DX/Z. Probably makes the combination less cumbersome if a non-Nikkor is used as the F-mount lenses tend to be large and the native Z optics even more so.
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I dont understand the concept for this camera ...
After Nikon Df and the skipping of Df2 plans -due to lack of demand....now we can expect a mirrorless camera with Df like controls - does not make sense to me. Worse it is ust APS-C and not full format - sorry I dont get the idea.
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I suspect the idea is to make the camera more the size of the FM-series cameras by giving it a DX sensor. The Df was much larger than, say, the F3 which was one criticism of that camera. There have been calls for a "digital FM3a" over the years, and going DX (with no IBIS, either) may make that more possible. We'll just have to see if this is what they have planned.
Another issue is that many wide-angle film-era lenses have a large ray angle towards the periphery of the image circle. That can cause image-quality problems on a sensor. A DX sensor reduces this problem by cropping the outer areas.
Speaking of small lenses as Birna mentioned, perhaps some of the old M42 lenses would make good choices for a very small camera-lens combination. I expect people will be trying old M-mount and other rangefinder lenses as well.
If I buy one I'll have to do some shooting with my Canon FD 800/5.6L, just to be contrary. ;)
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no FX, no purchase. period. :o :o :o
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I suspect the idea is to make the camera more the size of the FM-series cameras by giving it a DX sensor. The Df was much larger than, say, the F3...
The current Z cameras are already reasonably compact, although if the grip is removed there is not much room for a battery.
Another issue is that many wide-angle film-era lenses have a large ray angle towards the periphery of the image circle...
There are a handful of "mirror-up" f-mount lenses where the rear lens is very close to the image plane, resulting in a large ray angle to the corners. But most f-mount lenses have a large back-focus distance to allow space for the reflex mirror, so even the widest lenses have relatively shallow ray angles at the corner of the image.
perhaps some of the old M42 lenses would make good choices for a very small camera-lens combination
I am sure that is true, but it seems unlikely that Nikon would build a camera to be used with non-Nikkor lenses :o
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in that case the older L39 lenses would be better :o :o :o
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If you never hold a small mirror less you dont know how is it to have a small and light to go capable camera :)
See it that way not the other Df way 8)
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At present, I'm using my old RF Nikkors on the Z50. The combinations look nice and handle well. Initially i purchased a Sony A7(cannot recall the exact version) for my rangefinder lenses, but the combination was unpleasant to use so sold it quickly off.
The Laowa 11mm f/4.5 is ultra-wide on Z5/6/7, but still very useful as a less extreme wide lens (nearly 110 degrees angle-of-view) on the Z50. Like the other LAOWA offerings it is purely mamual so would certainly blend in well with a ZF concept.
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Judging from forums etc, the key to empower DX and widen affordability of the Z system for action genres is a Z90: with AF at least matching that of the excellent D500. Such a camera should cost relatively less (than a Z9): if the smaller sensor cuts the net cost of a MILC with stacked sensor. Judging from the D500, a Z90 will be used with FX glass mostly.
A 10-20 DX in Z mount will close the biggest gap in the line up. The compact 16-50 DX Z will also be ideal as semi-fixed lens/body cap - types 45 f2.8AIP
Whether it is DX or FX, as we know almost any lens is adaptable to its Z-mount. Indeed, many see a big anticipated role of a ZFc to inject new life into classic glass (mostly FX lenses as said above). Nevertheless, 3 years into the Z system - since release of the FTZ - Nikon still ignores the lack of automatic indexing of the aperture ring on AI / AIS lenses. Equally, owners of older Nikkors still cannot get full AF with a 28-105 AFD, 85 f1.4AFD and all the other screwdriver Nikkors on Zed cameras.... This includes the Defocus-Control primes.
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I see the ZFc glass as half full. The slightly smaller footprint of the Z50 is very noticeable compared to a Z7 or Z6. This is appreciated by those with small hands, and/or seeking a light compact ILC to take to events and for travel etc. It's likely influencers and the Instagram arena will appreciate the ZFc. Owning this camera to be seen with one, posting its images etc might even go viral - across Asia especially.
The niche of the Olympus Trip is stronger than ever, even though smartphones seem to fill it, but this explains continuing popularity of the Olympus Pen. A ZFc should fill it snugly - full control of shutterspeed, ISO, aperture et al, yet also work as "simple" Point&Shoot mode in full Auto with AF
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H__HYSAuJU
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A retro Zee camera would only be of interest to me personally if it is full frame to utilize the lens character as originally intended including bonus features like mechanical vignetting. An adapter compatible with the aperture lever of the Ai-S lenses like a Nikon DSLR would also be a bonus for proper EXIF registration, etc.
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Nikon did a lot of things right with the Df. Amongst the wrong things was - i say it once again - offering a kit lens without aperture ring.
When nikon is bringing a new retro style camera there should be a new adapter offering AI and screwdriver-AF capability.
Probably the front wheel will be better (it is a nuissance with the Df) - but I can't imagine that i am going to buy it.
If nikon is bringing a retro camera to distract that they are not on par technologically with their mirrorless opponents this is also not a good sign imho.
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I would like to see Nikon or some third party manufacturer make a FTZ adapter with Ai capability.
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perhaps some of the old M42 lenses would make good choices for a very small camera-lens combination
I am sure that is true, but it seems unlikely that Nikon would build a camera to be used with non-Nikkor lenses :o
On this particular point I was commenting from a user standpoint in response to Birna's earlier comment, not suggesting reasons for Nikon's rumored choices.
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I really wonder who is the target for this. I suppose there are some people who either miss, or retrospectively pine after, old rangefinders and Leicas and the like, but who have not already bought the other brands that seem to have done a good job of that. But from the capability point of view, the only virtue of a mirrorless camera here is the ability to use short registration lenses, and for that, existing MLC already do this. For meterless use of old Nikon F lenses, a low end DSLR probably does it better, with no adapter and for less money.
I may be an outlier on the camera control front. Love the old Leicas and the like though I do (and as I often say, if I were buried I'd want at least one Nikon F to be thrown in the hole), when I am using modern equipment I do not mind the modern controls. Once you're used to them, they work fine. Back in the days of film, I thought one of the nicest designs was the old Minolta Maxxum 7000. To go along with its innovative AF and other electronic features, it used a completely non-traditional set of controls with rocker switches and buttons. Not a dial in sight. Off-putting at first, it was actually very easy to use, functional, logical, and with the controls easy and quick to find.
Mind you, if Nikon knows its market, and if the new ZF-c I don't want helps them to survive and funds the development of newer and better cameras that I do, then good luck to them.
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Mind you, if Nikon knows its market, and if the new ZF-c I don't want helps them to survive and funds the development of newer and better cameras that I do, then good luck to them.
If so then it would be fine. But I dare to raise doubt that Nikon is always right, I see some significant signs of mismanagement
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If so then it would be fine. But I dare to raise doubt that Nikon is always right, I see some significant signs of mismanagement
Nooooooo! I have my fingers in my ears!
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If so then it would be fine. But I dare to raise doubt that Nikon is always right, I see some significant signs of mismanagement
Keep in mind that Nikon could not predict the financial future.
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Interestingly the Nikon Df can handle non-Ai lenses where before the non-Ai lens is mounted on the Df the aperture follower tab must first be folded up out of the way of where it can foul the aperture ring. Then the appropriate non-cpu lens menu is invoked where the lens in question is described as being non-Ai. (Non Df users can download the manual and see how this is done.)
Even with the existing FTZ with such an approach with the right non-cpu lenses menu on a Z-body to identify (as with the Df) when non-AiS lenses are mounted could do easily the same. I personally believe that it is more that Nikon generally doesn't want to support such capability for us. Maybe the mooted Zfc will have such menus - well we can all dream can we not! ;D
My 0.02c worth.
I would like to see Nikon or some third party manufacturer make a FTZ adapter with Ai capability.
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Interestingly the Nikon Df can handle non-Ai lenses where before the non-Ai lens is mounted on the Df the aperture follower tab must first be folded up out of the way of where it can foul the aperture ring. Then the appropriate non-cpu lens menu is invoked where the lens in question is described as being non-Ai. (Non Df users can download the manual and see how this is done.)
The Nikon F3 and F4 had this retractable meter coupling lever. The Nikon F5 didn't have it but the F5 could be sent to Nikon to be modified to have this feature. The Nikkormat FT3, Nikon EL2 also had this feature and perhaps the Nikon FM and FE. I never owned the last two cameras.
I wish my Nikon D850 had a retractable meter coupling lever. I own one lens that could benefit from this feature. It would be entirely possible if Nikon felt there was enough demand for the feature. It would be possible on all of the D2 to D6 series DSLR(s).
Probably most Nikon camera owners don't care about this feature. I'm sure that is why the retractable meter coupling lever has been missing from so many professional level Nikon cameras. The Df targeted a group that Nikon felt would want the feature. That would be the reason the Df had it.
Dave
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Hi David - these are my understandings as well.
Since the FTZ adapter does not have the meter coupling lever and its fold away tab, all Nikon has to do is to provide in their Z bodies is a Df-like non-CPU lens menu in which users of Nikon-Z bodies can identify lenses as being non-AiS.
What I am saying here is not new - with the Df they have already done so! And in my experience with my Df it works just fine.
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I'm sure that is why the retractable meter coupling lever has been missing from so many professional level Nikon cameras. The Df targeted a group that Nikon felt would want the feature. That would be the reason the Df had it.
Dave
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For me a Nikon Z camera only make sense as a FX full frame camera. Otherwise why deal with the huge flange size, that is so much not needed volume and weight.
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Hi David - these are my understandings as well.
Since the FTZ adapter does not have the meter coupling lever and its fold away tab, all Nikon has to do is to provide in their Z bodies is a Df-like non-CPU lens menu in which users of Nikon-Z bodies can identify lenses as being non-AiS.
What I am saying here is not new - with the Df they have already done so! And in my experience with my Df it works just fine.
Hi, the Zee cameras have a non-CPU lens menu but it only seems to work when using the FTZ adapter whereas on a Nikon DSLR it kicks in when no CPU is detected.
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For me a Nikon Z camera only make sense as a FX full frame camera. Otherwise why deal with the huge flange size, that is so much not needed volume and weight.
The large bayonet diameter is not needed for the DX format but is required for system compatibility.
Dave
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Nikon has a number of mounts already, in chronological order these are: S (for Nikon rangefinders), Nikonos (I-V), F, Nikonos RS, CX (1 series cameras), and now the pinnacle in form of the Z wide mount. Industrial systems used the L39 thread mounts as well, and for microscope the RMS threads.
They could easily launch a mirrorless small camera with an alternate mount, say RF (S) like the external bayonet on the S line of rangefinder models? That would be a dream come true. The rangefinder lenses are pretty good and the smaller DX format would shave off any less stellar corner performance of those designs.
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The Nikon F3 and F4 had this retractable meter coupling lever. The Nikon F5 didn't have it but the F5 could be sent to Nikon to be modified to have this feature. The Nikkormat FT3, Nikon EL2 also had this feature and perhaps the Nikon FM and FE. I never owned the last two cameras.
Dave
The Nikon FM definitely has this feature - and due to systematic reasons I guess the FE has it too.
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Keep in mind that Nikon could not predict the financial future.
Yes there are unpredictable events like pandemics, earthquakes in Japan, Floods in Thailand. But Nikon did some not so good things without excuses like that
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Sadly the fold up tab was omitted for the FM-2, FE-2, and the FM-3a.
The Nikon FM definitely has this feature - and due to systematic reasons I guess the FE has it too.
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Oh hell!
I guess we could always modify a spare FTZ with a non-Nkon lens mount. NG member Reid Curry converted a Nikon D40X to a Pentax M42 mount a while ago.
(See Link: https://www.ultravioletphotography.com/content/index.php/topic/264-reed-curry-bio/page__hl__%2Bd40+%2Bm42__fromsearch__1 )
Nikon don't make things easy do they? :(
Hi, the Zee cameras have a non-CPU lens menu but it only seems to work when using the FTZ adapter whereas on a Nikon DSLR it kicks in when no CPU is detected.
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The large bayonet diameter is not needed for the DX format but is required for system compatibility.
Dave
Why is the large diameter required for system compatibility if you have a DX sensor?
You just need room, back focal distance, for an adapter. So the adapter go from the "new" Z DX-mount to the other Nikon mounts like Z and F
Realistic, not IMHO.
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I just don't see using an adapter in normal photography situations. It is an extra point of vulnerability, and clumsy to use if you have multiple lenses.
Canon have a separate APS-C mount for mirrorless (M mount) but there is no adapter to use RF lenses on M or M lenses on RF. Their two mirrorless mounts are separate worlds.
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:o :o :o :o :o
And the rewind knob? Seems a little wierd.
built in crank charger... beats usb charging!
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Why is the large diameter required for system compatibility if you have a DX sensor?
I think I misread the your post above. :-[ Anyway...
How would you mount the new MC 105/2.8 S lens on a DX-Z mount camera? The DX-Z would have to have a shorter flange focal distance in order to use a FX-Z to DX-Z adapter. Nikon would have to make a complete series of new lenses for the new mount system. A complete new series of telephotos? A T-Mount like adapter for all Nikon Z type super telephotos? I would think two Z mounts would guaranty the failure of the new system.
With the F-Bayonet system you can mount an FX or DX lens on an FX or DX camera with no adapter. A person can own both FX and DX cameras and use the same lenses on either camera body.
The DX format was born from the necessity of smaller image sensor due to the cost of larger sensors. Does a DX sensor make sense anymore with an electronic view finder? The market will decide.
Camera makers are facing a smaller pool of potential customers for high end cameras. How many lens mount system can one maker support? How many can they market successfully.
Dave who is drinking his morning coffee and wondering if anything written above makes sense?
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A brilliant idea! ;D ;D ;D
(This reminds me of the old joke about the mechanical engineering professor who was demonstrating a hand crank operated machine to his students who burst out laughing when he said "you will notice that this machine is operated by a crank" ! :o)
built in crank charger... beats usb charging!
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built in crank charger... beats usb charging!
It's a mock-up, someone who does not work for Nikon made that drawing on a computer to fantasize about how the camera might look.
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:o :o :o
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the crank on the left... if an adaptor with a larger handle could be mounted for easier turning then all you'd need would be a lens and a bunch of cards as power would not be a problem. perfect for long trips or places where electricity is not accessible.
what i'd really like to see and nobody else has done is reintroduce the film advance lever! if this was a dslr, instead of the mirror assembly running on motors and using power, the film advance lever could crank and recrank the mirror. on a mirrorless, it could be some other type of switch or toggle, another way to charge the battery, or the usual 'crank it per picture' feature to enhance the retro aesthetics.
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Wouldn't one potential audience for this to be to woo some of the Fuji crowd over from X-100 series (which is crop) to Nikon crop?
I have not looked into a Z50 yet, but would like a smaller size. A higher end DX would be nice (if they don't oddly cripple it)
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This looks much more desirable for an APS-C Z body.
https://nikonrumors.com/2021/05/03/nikon-z30-aps-c-mirrorless-camera-mockup.aspx/
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This looks much more desirable for an APS-C Z body.
https://nikonrumors.com/2021/05/03/nikon-z30-aps-c-mirrorless-camera-mockup.aspx/
I agree, this would seem pretty neat combined with the upcoming 28/2.8 and 40/2 compact prime lenses, the 50 mm macro as well as the 16-50 DX.
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This looks much more desirable for an APS-C Z body.
https://nikonrumors.com/2021/05/03/nikon-z30-aps-c-mirrorless-camera-mockup.aspx/
Would this be smaller than the D50? it looks like it but hard to tell scale...
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Would this be smaller than the D50? it looks like it but hard to tell scale...
The image looks like Z50 with its EVF erased.
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Would this be smaller than the D50? it looks like it but hard to tell scale...
https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-camera/nikon-d50-vs-nikon-z50
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FM2 revisited...in DX and Z
https://nikonrumors.com/2021/06/28/nikon-z-fc-already-listed-at-some-online-store-full-specifications-and-pricing-leaked.aspx/