NikonGear'23
Images => Nature, Flora, Fauna & Landscapes => Topic started by: Frank Fremerey on August 03, 2015, 19:57:33
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In the course of the next days I try to find which of these four will be most helpful
tracking bees in their environment. My neighbour is bee scientist
working on her master thesis. She found 30 species ... taxonomical
differences only ... in the field she is working.
I hope I can track as many of them as possible.
NPS was so kind to lend two extra bodies. The D750 and the D810. With my D3 and the D600 that makes 4.
They also wanted to give me an AFS 105 VR Micro, but they seem to have
forgotten to send it. Currently loading batteries...
Bees bees bees. 30.Wild species. Wow. Habe to ask some friendsbin Bonn
for more Macro lenses
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Good luck!
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Thank you. 30 species means work. I hope to be lucky. The 105VR is in the post.
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I will be interested to hear your thoughts on the D750 compared to the rest.
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I performed a comparsion with D800E vs. D600 on the old site
Contrary to my expectation the 800 won the field test and the 600
won in the studio.
This time my expectation is very much that the D810 and the D750
will be very close in both fields.
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First studio test ad hoc handheld and tripod, focus on handling
all set to base ISO plus F=8 and the 60G Micro as lens.
Annotations:
1) D3 with a high piercing sound, D750 sounds fast and snappy
but also a tad aggressive, D600 similar to D750 but a little more
damped and slower, D810. What a relief. Well damped and elegant
sound. A great step forward from the D800. I would see no problem
using her during a church service.
2) D3 slow Autofocus, D600 noticable delay till focus, D810 and
D750 instantaneous AF but different sound. Very interesting.
AF in the field is my main interest. I feel I can leave the oldies at
home. Simple as that. Huge difference.
3) misc:
-- The D750 uses the big display on the back for Information I can find in the Viewfinder or
in the Top Display on the other cams. E.g. if you need to know if AutoISO is safely disabled. Not good.
-- All bodies fit nicely into my hands though the D750 gives me the impression I should cut my nails
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Well, Frank, where is the D4S? That is what I would choose for such a task. Unfor, I do not have the money to actually own one currently. But nothing tracks better or faster, imho. And you can keep speeds so very fast with its high ISO capability.
I will be very interested to see a report for the various combo of settings like AF-S/AF-C + d9/21/51/GRP/Auto.
If you are not afraid of bees, tracking at a short distance (60mm macro) with AF-C/3D sometimes works as the bee crawls over the flower. It isn't too hard to get a 3D lock on the bee if you are hand-holding. But you have to work quickly and put autofocus on the back button.
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First report from the field:
I need about f=10 and 1/1.000 s for best results. So I have to pump the ISO to some extent even in good light. I tried some shots with ISO 64 but the bee's movement it too erratic and unpredictable. The D810 is a big leap forward from the D800E in any relevant respect. I will give no second thought to pump up the ISO to 2.000 which might be a good candidate for upper end of AutoISO. Tonality and noise are still very good, the former harshness is gone.
AUTOFOCUS with 105VR and 60G Micro Nikkors:
I got both D750 and D810 factory reset from NPS and set the AF to "AF-S plus Single point" to compare.
There might still be some difference in factory settings deep down in the menu which I did not yet find, so bare with me if the differences described here might have to do with that.
1) The D750 AF behaves very hectic and erratic and active with both lenses. I saw that in the studio shots yesterday and I saw it all the more in the field. The D810 AF approaches the target from one side and then seems to lock on it without hunting. My impression in that respect is that the D810 seems to expect the next shot in a series to need about the same focus distance for optimum sharpness while the D750 looks in a wider range of focus distances as if she had no prior knowledge of which focus she chose 0.2 seconds before. With 3D tracking this erratic behaviour gets even worse. My impression form a few hundred comparison shots is also that the D750 "pumps" on moving targets while the D810 repositions carefully like an experienced hunter.
2) The D750 seems to be programmed to choose the nearest object as the most likely target while the D810 is searching for the possible target anywhere. She might sniff around houses and trees in the background even if 80% of the frame are filled with flowers and bees in the near field. The "Limiter" of the 105VR did not change that behaviour. The D750 is much more responsive in that respect.
3) The AF system of both cameras is a practical improvement over my D600 and D3 so I can alter the strategy for "bee hunting" a bit. I search the bee by hand, move forward and backward a little until I got her in the single focus field. Then I let the camera track her. With the D600 this did not work. But I could track the bee with AF and when I got her I saved the setting and adjusted by moving my body with the insects.
4) My 60G Micro just came from service but I do not really trust it yet. It stopped focussing suddenly and a camera change and a minute later it did suddenly work again. Hm. Not good. BUT: When the 60 worked it was much faster and better suited for bee hunting than the 105VR Micro. This is an aged 2006 design with early VR-technology (this incarnation from the China make with Serial Number 2004491) and focus speed is much slower. Also a lot of glass has to be moved and the VR produces strange noises, like a heavy pinball moving in a thick bottle.
Now I will review the pictures.
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This is a fascinating exercise Frank.
There are a lot of variables here. I'm not even going to get into whether there's much sunshine where you are (naff all here in the UK) which will affect things.
But what I worry about is that you seem to be evaluating AF success. However there are two factors here
- The bees own movement. I suspect that if it's warm, they aren't still for very long - maybe less time than the 105 needs to acquire focus
- Your own movement. Unless you're using a monopod or other support, you will find it hard to hold position. This just adds the the calculations the AF and any 3D tracking is trying to do!
Of course you may already have thought of all this! but let us know
> the D750 looks in a wider range of focus distances
> as if she had no prior knowledge of which focus she chose 0.2 seconds before.
Ahhhh, so one of them is female too....... ;)
Please keep us updated
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Just came back from the former gravel pit where the bee scientist
works. Spent two hours in the blazing sun. Could watch I guess
six or eight different species.
The D810 does not focus with my Micro Nikkor at all.
See if NPS can fix that tomorrow.
So it is D810 plus 105VR Micro and D750 plus 60G micro.
I get another chance to watch the bees on Sunday morning if the wheather is right.
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Colin. This is not a scientific test. The question is more: do I get significantly more keepers with
on combo of camera and lens or another.
I feel the 105VR is EOL. So many things happened since 02006. The AF got better the VR got better
I have a lot of keepers today.
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Now, after discovering that this copy of D810 has trouble autofocussing with more than one lens it is more the camera I doubt than the lens.
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Wht are your settings for AF lock-on? Are they the same on all cameras?
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Simone: AF Lock On? I do not understand what that means. As fas as I remember this has something to do with 3D-tracking which I do not use. Am I wrong?
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That first one is really cool!
Sorry to hear about your camera trouble :(
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Simone: AF Lock On? I do not understand what that means. As fas as I remember this has something to do with 3D-tracking which I do not use. Am I wrong?
It's a custom function with which you can set the time it takes for the system to refocus if you either lose the subject from your active focus point or something blocks it. In a sense, it has a lot to do with how reactive the AF feels.
Look up Steve Perry on youtube, he has a really good explanation of the Nikon AF system.
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Simone: AF Lock On? I do not understand what that means. As fas as I remember this has something to do with 3D-tracking which I do not use. Am I wrong?
It's a custom function with which you can set the time it takes for the system to refocus if you either lose the subject from your active focus point or something blocks it. In a sense, it has a lot to do with how reactive the AF feels.
Look up Steve Perry on youtube, he has a really good explanation of the Nikon AF system.
Thank you. I know the menu function but I do not really know what it is supposed to do and what is really does. I will check out Perry!
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Thank you. I know the menu function but I do not really know what it is supposed to do and what is really does.
It can have a huge influence on how quickly AF is lost on moving subjects and how quickly it is re-aquired.
The longer the lock, the longer it tries to hang onto a subject, but it then also takes longer to re-quire focus. Shorter times help with quick re-aquiry, but might loose subjects quicker.
From your description above, me thinks the 810 and the 750 use different settings here.
All independent of 3D mode. Applies also for single AF point.
cheers
afx
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Danke Andreas. Ich schau mal dass ich für beide gleich einstelle.
Thank you Andreas. I will make sure the setting will be the same for both on Sunday
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For all Biodiversity Lovers: I have hidden two animals who are no bees. Will you find them?
*FOTCL*
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In the pictures I have developed so far there are only the following species to be seen:
Gelbbindige Furchenbiene, Halictus scabiosae (Weibchen)
Braunbürstige Hosenbiene, Dasypoda hirtipes (Männchen)
Großes Heupferd
Irgendein Käfer ;-)
lots of Honey Bees
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and a few more from the first set.
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Now some from the D810. Gosh, The 105VR is a great lens optically. With some improvement to AF and VR this is a must have.
On the first picture we see (hm, did not get it better) two bloodbees fighting.
On the fifth picture I am not sure if this is a bee.
http://www.wildbienen.de/wbarten.htm
http://www.honeybeesuite.com/mining-bees-are-wild-bees-that-live-underground/
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Nice series Frank
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The females build underground nests in the sand. "Building" means that patient people can observe them carrying sand out of their nest.
The first picture is from a series of excavation work. You can see a "hollow way" where she moves the sand along.
The second shows a bee that sits idle by her nest and gets checked out by an ant (also from a long series).
In the third picture you see a bee coming back from collecting pollen for her breed.
The next one shows the same bee a minute later shortly before take off to the next round.
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The grey-blue signs are numbers for the holes. The bee in the last two pictures is Number 171.
Annotation concerning the 105VR. If it is not this special incarnation of it I only like the lens with AF and VR switched of. I cannot get it to do the things I want it to do otherwise. The VR causes loud "clonk" noise when the machine goes to sleep and wakes up causing camera shake big time instead of hindering it
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Glad you got your AF Mojo working Frank.
Wow, so many bees!
I love the non-bees, especially the cricket, who has a very lugubrious expression on his face!
Can I ask about http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=975.0;attach=1610
The bokeh seems very jittery compared to the others which are much smoother. Did you do something different for that one?
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The link worksn't
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Picture 0673 shows a flower fly.
I expected that.
therefore the name of the file:
Biene oder Fliege?
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Interesting serie !
There are sooo many different bees...
The flower fliy is Eristalis tenax ♀. (Syrphidaes). Diptera.
It's not from the bees family. ;)
I am following your thread.
Can you number your pics, please ? That would be easier for commenting. Thanks.
Francis.
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preview_bloodbee_entering_nest_D81_0614_v1.JPG
Francis. The pictures are numbered. Just look at the line below where
the original file name is given.
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the original file name is given.
They are numbered indeed... :-[
Was I still sleeping ? ;D
Entschuldigen Sie mich ! ;)
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Looks like a defective lens, non are really sharp... but some sharpness seems to be running along both sides of the image, with a unsharp center column. Also a lot of noise or something in the second image...
I would;
Big 40x60 cm softbox with grid on a battery pack like an Elinchrom Ranger with short bursts of high power would freeze action nicely and you can shoot at ISO 100 ;)
Old 105mm Micro nikkor f/4 would help... since the 105mm Micro Nikkor AFS VR looses a lot of focal length as you get closer, due to the IF design...
Or 125mm APO Lanthar 200 mm Micro Nikkor...
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The link worksn't
The image I felt had a "jittery" bokeh & background was 0588.
Anything you did differently on this one?
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A suggestion is using the older MF Micro-Nikkor 200 mm f/4. It has a very fast-rotating focusing collar that can be flicked into position by a finger tip, it is quite light weight, long enough of build to be be easily supported and operated by hand, and has internal focusing so its physical length does not change. Image quality isn't at the stellar level of the best Micro-Nikkors, but provided you don't stop down too much, should be more than satisfactory. There is some CA though, but digital processing easily removes most of it.
If you add a flash bracket, you have a very handy helper for capturing your insects.
I agree with Erik's evaluation. The posted images by the AFS 105 Micro in this thread really show less than top quality. VR is a feature that cuts both ways and in my opinion., never should be relied upon for close-ups.
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Flash does not make sense here because these bees are gone after the first flash is fired. You cannot record series of their behavior that way. And you only get one shot every 20 minutes instead of one series every 20 minutes.
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OK, higher ISO then. But the comment about the better handling 200 stands.
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Currently I am looking into acquiring a longer Macro.
The MF 200/f=4 is a hot candidate.
I also could use a very small very sturdy tripod that also stands on soft ground.
a beansack maybe?
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The link worksn't
The image I felt had a "jittery" bokeh & background was 0588. Anything you did differently on this one?
No, I just checked the EXIF: This is the D750 with the 2.8/60G Micro Nikkor at F=10 and 1/1000 s and ISO=360. The structure in the BG is caused by the test setup of my Biologist Neighbour. She planted some pots with flowers her bee test subjects like and created an artificial fodder source that way. Then she tested if the return times of her bees were affected by the distance of this fodder source. She used lots of fertilizer ion these plants so that the stems grew unnaturally fast and long.
What you see are these entangled long stems.
Frank
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OK, higher ISO then. But the comment about the better handling 200 stands.
Is there something inbetween? What about the once famous Microo Nikkor Zoom? Or a 105 MF Micro Nikkor?
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I just bought Ebay Number: 221843411535
4/200 Micro Serial Number 207157
It seemed dirt cheap to me. All other offers were 100 Euro more than this and from the pictures it looks very good. I can easily sell it if I do not like it.
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I just bought Ebay Number: 221843411535
4/200 Micro Serial Number 207157
It seemed dirt cheap to me. All other offers were 100 Euro more than this and from the pictures it looks very good. I can easily sell it if I do not like it.
Looks nice enough. The wobbling lens hood is preferably taped into its extended position. For hand-held use it is sometimes better to remove the tripod collar, although I personally find it gives better traction for your hands. But removing it saves on weight and it snaps back in a split second anyway should you need it.
I will not surprised if you join the ranks of CPU "chippers" after having purchased this lens. It is amongst the easiest one :D
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Is there something inbetween? What about the once famous Microo Nikkor Zoom? Or a 105 MF Micro Nikkor?
I have bought a micro nikkor 105mm f/4 recently : I really love it. very sharp and its very long trow (more than 300°) allows accurate focus. But you only get half life size.
One of the cheapest micro nikkor on the second hand market.
http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=1022.0
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Erik: NPS promised to send a tested D810 and a tested 105VR ASAP
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As stated above 105 VR is not for this job, but ok then you will see what it can do...
Instead of flash buy a video LED light...
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Video LED is more mobile but the colour profile is not as clean as natural light. Most of the shots I could do with f=10 and 1/1000 s with an ISO setting below 500 which does not cause me headache at all
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Erik: What about the MF 105/4?
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That was the lens Erik referred to.
Beware it has a long fcus throw which is beneficial for exact focusing but not for focusing speed.
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Bjørn & Erik: Is there somewhere a comprehensive guide to Micro Nikkors.
I am sure you did recommend the 4.0/200mm and the 4.0/105mm for a reason and not the 2.8-Varieties of the 105mm for example which are plenty with the VR as the newest incarnation OR the AF-Version of the 200mm
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You deal with shy insects so want the longest possible working distance ==> 200/4 MF
You want very rapid manual focusing ==> 200/4 MF
You want the highest image quality => 105/4 (and others)
You want a light and versatile Micro ==> 105/4
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You need to read more carefully Frank... All of the bits for the puzzle has been laid out.
Most new Micro Nikkors have IF it makes focal length shorter, much shorter, so you will have to go closer to get the similar FOV compared to the older Micro Nikkors that have unit focusing, constant Focal Length...
When you have to get closer you scare them and also need to move around franticly - Frankly,,,, Longer working distance much less so, also better for lighting the subject.
Look at Rolands pages and see working distance 105/4 vs 105/2.8 IF (AFSVR) difference is about 10cm!
200/4 Ais is perfect combination you loose a little and maintain the working distance and get quick MF and here double the working distance! it has IF but not so much loss of FL.
Led video lights are most of them balanced perfectly you just adjust it for correct WB!
Bjørn nailed it with 200/4
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The 200/4 MF Micro-Nikkor was, and still is, my favourite tool for shooting butterflies and other small flying creatures.
The AF version is much bigger and heavier, and its AF is glacial if you are tempted against all rational senses to use it for close-ups. Its working distance is much shorter than with the MF model, too.
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The AF version is much bigger and heavier, and its AF is glacial if you are tempted against all rational senses to use it for close-ups. Its working distance is much shorter than with the MF model, too.
Would it be inappropriate to express my admiration at your choice of words :)
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Words were chosen with care to get the point across ...
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Your critique of Nikon's product policy is blasphemous if this term is allowed in a business context *LOL*
I think by buying the 4/200 yesterday I proved that I got you if only on a subconscious level.
Your help greatly appreciated.
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Nah - the AF 200 Micro-Nikkor is more than 20 years old by now, so blaming this oldtimer for a poor AF performance is no heresy in any context anywhere. Plus it is moot as the main problem is doing AF up close. You lose critical control over your shot.
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Bjørn and some others revealed that AF-D Micro 200/4.0 also has the A-M ring cracking problem.
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Indeed it has. A problem that can hit even when the A/M ring isn't used at all. My 200 AF Micro suffered from this after some ten years of the non-use of the A/M feature and the repair is costly.
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Indeed it has. A problem that can hit even when the A/M ring isn't used at all. My 200 AF Micro suffered from this after some ten years of the non-use of the A/M feature and the repair is costly.
Sorry to sidetrack, but did you find the same problem with other lenses with A/M rings like AF-D85/1.4, 135/2.0 or 105/2.0? I've had AF-D Micro 60/2.8 also with A/M ring, but maybe I haven't had mine long enough to make sure.
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My 105/2 DC developed a hairline crack and later the entire lens split into two. No issue so far with the AF 85/1.4 although I can see a crack is about to form.
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My 105/2 DC developed a hairline crack and later the entire lens split into two. No issue so far with the AF 85/1.4 although I can see a crack is about to form.
So, the problems seem to be about the A/M ring in general... Thanks for the info!
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Ok. Back to the bees this afternoon.
Heresy meaning you recommend 30 year old designs over
9 year old designs meaning they do not get their act together
in Micro Nikkor design.
Original purpose of the test was to find whether modern AF
might be able to track bees in flight.
Short answer: No. Not even a bee running around on a flower
collecting.
I had to return to old school MF and a lot of luck.
In very good light I can sometimes find the initial focus by hand then let AF kick in to track her on the flower.
AF for initial focus and Body Movement to track does sometimes work too.
Best method is still MF initial and body movement to track.
I wish for a pattern recognition AF that can learn how to spell "bee" by being taught via touch screen.
What does Dr Lens say concerningthis idea?
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...Heresy meaning you recommend 30 year old designs over
9 year old designs meaning they do not get their act together
in Micro Nikkor design.
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They are different tools for different jobs! The design criteria is chosen from different targets ;)
The cracking M/A ring only occurs for some lenses and olny some samples. I belive we narrowed it down to cracking can happen on first batches of lenses, My 20-35mm 2.8 AF-D doesnt have any cracking although it has benn and still is being used frequently. And I have had many more with this design without cracks, only seen the cracks on other peoples lenses.
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Erik: The 200/4 lens you and Bjørn are discussing, is that this model: http://www.dba.dk/prime-nikon-nikkor-200mm-f-4/id-1017431054/
I sold my 105 micro when I thought I would switch to Fuji, not sure if the above lens is worth buying? It's certainly cheap...
Ps. Hopefully, this slight sidetrack is okay, otherwise I'm sorry and hope the mods will either delete it or move it.
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Nope, that is the non-Micro 200/4. A good lens but not anything like the 200/4 Micro-Nikkor AI/AIS.
Go check the models out on Roland Vink's Nikon page.
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I used the non-micro 200/4 with a PN-11 and got very good results for butterflies.
It gives you great working distance.
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But with a very limited range f magnification, around 1:3. Plus, very slow focusing as this is a unit-focusing design and hence focusing travel is long and the lens barrel alters its length.
The 180ED + PN-11 is a known combination, but having the same drawbacks. Quality is good though.
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In this particular case, PN-11 doesn't seem to be useful. But for other applications, PN-11 is very functional. You can attach a universal joint style accessory shoe and mount a flash or a LED light onto the shoe. Thanks to the 90-degree click of the collar, you can switch between the portrait and landscape orientations easily while keeping the light source at the top.
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You can attach a universal joint style accessory shoe and mount a flash or a LED light onto the shoe.
How clever is that !
And certainly very sturdy.
Thanks for thr tip, Akira. :)
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If you don't need a continuously changeable magnification from ~0 (infinity focus) , it is entirely possible to add a PN-11 to the Micro-Nikkor 200 mm f/4 (AI/AIS) as well.
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The 4/200mm Micro I bought yesterday afternoon arrived this morning.
It is in fact in even better condition than I expected.
The construction is pretty much like the AF 180/f=2.8:
Lots of air in the back, then the aperture and the block of lenses up front. Small and light lens. Much better than the modern Behemouths
I am looking forward to testing it.
Another question that got lost above:
What about the a beansack recommondation or a very small sturdy tripod for work on or very near the floor or table - Like 5cm to 15cm?
Another annotation:
Taking pictures of bees living in earth holes requires equipment I did not think about in advance. Bloddy frst timer.
1) A pair of scissors to cut grass and straw obstructing the viewing angle of the lens
///OT/// I had to fire up the big machine again because editing posts on the phone it a PITA . Please add a simple Mobile Theme!!! \\\OT\\\
2) The bean sack or other small means (small spade with a 1/4inch screw on to?) to not make my arms going to sleep while waiting.
3) Ideally a remote control via WIFi with Tablet preview (Cam Ranger) or a movement trigger to capture bees coming back (they need less that 1/2 second to land and disappear in the whole.
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How clever is that !
And certainly very sturdy.
Thanks for thr tip, Akira. :)
Francis, glad to be of any help.
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Another question that got lost above:
What about the a beansack recommondation or a very small sturdy tripod for work on or very near the floor or table - Like 5cm to 15cm?
Frank, have you looked at Novoflex Minipod?
http://www.novoflex.com/de/produkte/stativ--und-haltesysteme/mini-stative/minipod/
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Or a contraption I assembled a while ago. It is less flexible than Novoflex Minipod, but sturdier.
The problem is that it may take some time to collect all the parts...
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Akira: something like that. Where do you buy those parts?
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Frank, I bought the ballhead either on ebay or amazon, the Manfrotto DADO kit (the parts spreading in the middle) at a local retailer and the threaded stud as well as the hard rubber feet from RRS.
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I have a Manfrotto factory or outlet something not far from here. Will try threre. Thank you.
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I have a Manfrotto factory or outlet something not far from here. Will try threre. Thank you.
Frank, hope the contraption would work for you.
All the threads on the red ball and black bars are the standard 3/8". So, most of the photo accessories can be attached. You can even use spikes to stick into the ground. Also, there are two different DADO kits: DADO with one red ball, three paris of black bars and studs as well as DADO with one red ball and six pairs of bars and studs. With the latter kit, you can adjust the height of the tripod more flexibly by connecting two bars using the stud.
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www.manfrottodistribution.de/
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Depth of field is always in short supply. In my standard situation it is 8mm (15cm distance, F=11, D600, Micro 60G).
But as Erik is probably right even the "in focus" parts here are not biting. So the 105VR does not shine in this discipline while it was really nice in the Tomatoe thread.
In this case she is also moving, throwing sand around, so motion blur is a possible cause (1/160 s f=10, D600)
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www.manfrottodistribution.de/
http://www.manfrotto.de/dado-kit-6-rohre-msy0580a
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Frank, I remember using Ai-s Micro 105/4.0. I liked the fact that the lens extends significantly and that there is no optical trick that shortens the focal length when focused closer, because the lens will keep the camera and the photographer away from the subjects, unlike the modern IF micro/macro lenses filling up the market. You don't need to bend over to the subject either, when you handhold the camera/lens combo.
That said, one problem I found was that it doesn't have a tripod colar. Thus the camera/lens combo had to be supported at the bottom of the camera, which makes the whole rig unstable and front-heavy, and it is difficult to change angles on the ballhead.
So, whenever you are sure that you are going to shoot at the magnification between 1:2 and 1:1, you would be better off using PN-11 from the outset and mount the collar of PN-11 onto the tripod head. RRS used to make a dedicated Arca-Swiss plate called "5A" that fits perfectly and solidly with the somewhat rounded foot of PN-11 and guarantees the rock solid support.
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But as Erik is probably right even the "in focus" parts here are not biting. So the 105VR does not shine in this discipline while it was really nice in the Tomatoe thread.
Interesting. So can you or Erik say whether you think it's the optical qualities of the 105VR that are stopping you getting the quality you want, or is it
- Not being able to acquire sharp focus quickly enough, or
- Subject movement affecting the image more than usual because of the magnification involved?
I appreciate you are after natural images of your bees. However one option I was going to suggest several days ago was using flash to eliminate some of the variables. This might not be a long term solution but might at least indicate the main source of your issues.
- Being able to freeze the action with the short flash duration
- Giving you more light so you have more options on aperture etc
Of course, once you start doing this, you are into another world of
a) Keeping this setup mobile enough as you stalk your prey ;)
b) Getting a natural-looking balance of light between the subject & background
(easy in a studio macro setup, harder whilst out in the field and when moving around)
I have the full Nikon R1C1 macro setup inc Commander. I've used this with insects on several occaisions and it works.
I am not using it much at the moment, so if you wanted to give it a go, could ship it across to you.....
This guy wasn't moving as much as your bees, but indicates what's possible
(note taken with the 105BR plus D50, so less pixels or AF ability than your setup)
(http://www.pbase.com/celidh/image/83444017/original.jpg)
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Problems with the 105VR???
I was interested in the point raised by Erik and others. I have only used this lens and the older Tamron SP90mm to do closeups, so don't have extensive experience in this area. However I have attached a couple of images taken with the 105VR in case they help confirm or question the issue.
I don't doubt the VR version of this lens has some drawbacks compared to other models (the VR makes it ridiculously bigger & heavier than needed). I also don't know how its AF response stacks up, but that isn't usually an issue for macro unless you are chasing a moving object - I wonder if at that point the AFS might offer some advantages compared to the older screwdriver system on the 200mm (whether or not that lens has superior optics)
So any comments on the images below would be welcome
Ichneumon wasp (flash)
(http://www.pbase.com/celidh/image/129327968/original.jpg)
Minty Cricket (flash)
(http://www.pbase.com/celidh/image/135926138/original.jpg)
Crawly beetle (NO FLASH)
(http://www.pbase.com/celidh/image/157789159/original.jpg)
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Frank has already specified that flash cannot be used in this project.
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For very shy bees flash does not help as stated above. My bee scientist burst into laughter when I told her.
My final goal is to shoot sequenes of bees in flight. It could bee that flash is helpful in this case.
The limiting factor to me seems to be AF speed or better put how to acquire focus.
We have roughly 8mm DOF. Many bees are bigger than 8mm. They move at 10cm per second often erratic.
For sitting bees my setup is not so bad and the 4/200 Micro wil make it better. See examples.
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We have roughly 8mm DOF. Many bees are bigger than 8mm. They move at 10cm per second often erratic.
For sitting bees my setup is not so bad and the 4/200 Micro wil make it better. See examples.
Although your bees may fit inside this DOF, you may find that many people feel the shot isn't "in focus" if the insect's eyes aren't sharp. So perhaps the tolerance is even tighter than that.
However the last image you posted was excellent, eyes looked good and it was also a very pleasing photographic image (even without any scientific content).
For very shy bees flash does not help as stated above. My bee scientist burst into laughter when I told her.
Yes, I read this and smiled as an image came into my mind of a bee emerging from a nightclub with a leg up in front of its face yelling "No Pictures please"
:) ;)
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Colin. The most hits I get with the 60G Micro when it comes to bees in flight. Look at my other bee threads.
But it is wasting film still. Lots of that. With 64GB cards the film roll is veeeery long.
There are laser tracking rigs to capture insects in a proper technical way. For me the images are not
pleasing photographically. I love the natural light. For insects that do not feel disturbed by flash a fill could
effectively help with the micro contrast though.
Thank you for your support.
Frank
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The last image of bee (on borage flower) looks ''creamy''. really nice ! 8)
If I have correctly understood you took it with the 200mm micro-nikkor ?
Cheers, Francis.
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Francis: No the picture is taken with the 60G Micro Nikkor anmd stems from the "tracking bees" thread.
Here is it: http://nikongear.net/revival/index.php?topic=293.0
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But as Erik is probably right even the "in focus" parts here are not biting. So the 105VR does not shine in this discipline while it was really nice in the Tomatoe thread.
Interesting. So can you or Erik say whether you think it's the optical qualities of the 105VR that are stopping you getting the quality you want, or is it
- Not being able to acquire sharp focus quickly enough, or
- Subject movement affecting the image more than usual because of the magnification involved?
...
Yes to both.
Difficult to see what is shot with what lens when you don't clearly state what you have used but ramble about various lenses in the posts Frank.
Depth of field with these sharp lenses is not what counts, depth of focus is much more important and as stated the eyes as always...
Your way to low in shutter speed IMHO so I would go into various kinds of illumination, LED panels large softbox I suggest again, they simply can't know if there is one or two suns...
It seems the road is long... Is it worth it... I hope it pays well!
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Erik. Before I do a paid job in a field I first want to be sure my setup works as expexted.
So I look into LED panels that run on batteries and do not spoil the mood.
The shots with the laser rig do not arise any interest in me. I could as well start to shoot dead animals instead.
Dead animals do behave in technical shots.
But this is not my goal. My goal is to create immersive shots that seem like a window into an animals world.
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Nikon D800E with CV-125mm
I tend to take non-moving images of insects. This was taken a year or so ago.
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Michael: Which aperture to you use? 22?
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Michael: Which aperture to you use? 22?
No, more like f/11
Here is another from the same time period.
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Thanks Michael, outstanding! They pop right out and the little guys are crisp and clean.
The back ground is a bit on the rough side but that is compromise here I realize that!
APO 125mm CV is nice!
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Do you perhaps have access to the new 300mm f4 E and a 1.4 teleconverter?
I have had my best results on admittedly somewhat larger insects (butterflies and dragonflies) using it's pedecessor (the Af-S). It has a relatively short minimum focus distance of 1.3m and much faster AF than any of the micro lenses I know of.
I have also found that using close-up tubes that get a lens into the second (further) half of the focus range speeds up AF quite a lot.